What is the Gospel?

[Dr. Rich]

As for the 'trial', I am sorry John that you went off on a wild chase here. There is a world of difference between me and those of the Jesus Seminar. So your theory is irrelevant. Yes, I have read accounts by others but they NEVER used John 14:26 and 17;20 either! BIG difference here. So don't be surprised--I just don't use them and have forgotten lots of them.

John, you can take this to the bank: No one on this earth has the same understanding that our group has. It is totally different than anything anyone else has ever seen before.

Remember, the true witness, like Elijah, that presents the food to the fellow servants to eat just before Jesus comes, will shock, with new truth, those who are sleeping causing them to wake up. Read what EGW had to say about this in another post of mine on another thread.

[Musicman1228]

All of us (me included) would love to have a single, authoritative, uniform, inerrant, and easily understandable source of Truth. For most Christians this must be the Bible, what they believe to be the wholly infallible, inerrant word of God. As lovely and comforting as this would be if it was true, if it actually isn't all of these things and you believe that it is can you not see how easily manipulated you could be into believing that something is true when it isn't. Where did God ever make this kind of guarantee?

The "If they speak not according to this word" text in Isaiah was never meant to include the New Testament which would not be written for 100's of years in the future. The "All Scripture is given . . ." text in 1 Timothy is Paul speaking of the Old Testament documents and not talking about the New Testament because at the time Paul made this statement none of the New Testament had been written.

In order to be able to blindly state that the entire bible is the word of God one must suspend logical process and merely believe something is true just because it sounds true. I am not saying that we must throw out anything in the New Testament, but I am saying that we must be able to compare what is said in the New Testament with what has already been established as truth in the Old Testament, and also with an infallible standard which is the words of Jesus Christ in prophecy and as given by those who knew Him best while He was here on earth. This is how I operate, as all of you now well know. I am certain that eventually we will all know the whole truth about this. That will be a great day, indeed.

[Twilight]

John, you can take this to the bank: No one on this earth has the same understanding that our group has. It is totally different than anything anyone else has ever seen before.

And therein lies the seed of pride and error...

[John317]

Quote:

Musicman1228: I agree that we must look to the evidence, but in your above statement the very next thing you say is that we should make assumptions.

I am saying that for the sake of this thread and discussion, we lay aside the conclusion that the Bible is full of lies, or that Ellen White is a false prophet, and instead focus on the biblical evidence-- all of it. In other words, when we look at Luke 1, don't draw your conclusion prematurely that Luke is not dependable. First look at what he writes and show that you understand what he's saying. Be willing to do the same with Paul's writings and with all the NT.

What I'm saying is don't keep mentioning your conclusion. Let's discuss the evidence-- i.e., the entire NT, in fact, the entire Bible-- as regards the content of the Good News.

Quote:

Musicman: Evidence does not assume anything, it merely is what it is. As soon as you allow assumptions into the mix evidence must fly out the window.

OK, but what I'm suggesting is that we hold our conclusion off while we look closely at all that the Bible says about the Good News, and try to come to some mutual understandings of what the gospel is. We could go around all year arguing over whether the conclusion is justified that Paul and Ellen White are false. But the conclusion is nothing if it is not based on solid rock-- and the rock is reasoning IN the scriptures. That requires a careful, prayerful look at the evidence found in Scripture. It requires correct thinking about the Bible-- about what it's saying. If we are wrong about what it's saying, then we're very likely to be wrong in our conclusions.

Quote:

Musicman: That being said I have already done just what you said to do at the start of my due diligence with respect to truth (many years ago). I did assume that the whole Bible was the very words of God cover to cover, including the cover which says "HOLY BIBLE". Yet over the years EVIDENCE came to light that disabused me of that assumption.

OK, so we can do it again, this time reading and discussing the evidence together. Not talking about the conclusions but the EVIDENCE of the whole Scripture.

[Twilight]

Here is the thing: IF I put you on the stand in court and asked you if you KNEW FOR SURE that everything written in the New Testament was inspired by God the Creator, what would be your answer?

I would answer:

Yes.

The Bible is internally consistent.

There may be a very small percentage of error from translation in places, but it consistently reveals itself to be in harmony.

This Spiritual harmony is in fact its own evidence.

[karl]

Here is the thing: IF I put you on the stand in court and asked you if you KNEW FOR SURE that everything written in the New Testament was inspired by God the Creator, what would be your answer?

I'd have to say, "Not directly."

The reason is that Paul himself admits that some of what he wrote was not directly inspired, but was his own opinion.

[John317]

Quote:

Dr. Rich: you can take this to the bank: No one on this earth has the same understanding that our group has. It is totally different than anything anyone else has ever seen before.

God's truth is not going to be totally different from what anyone else has seen before. God is leading out a church. I don't know how you can believe the SDA church is the Kingdom of God and yet have all the false doctrine that you claim it has. Why would you remain in a church where only three or so men know the truth, while the rest of the church is teaching false doctrines and leading millions astray. It doesn't make sense to me.

Ellen White talks about people who are looking for anything novel and exciting because it's exotic or strange.

Personally I have grave doubts about any group whose views of Scripture are totally unique, as if God has not led any other Christians. You make it appear that for 2,000 years the Christian church has looked to a half-false book for guidance, whereas the reality (according to you) is that this book is filled with hundreds of the Devil's lies and all so well concealed that practically no one can be sure of what's true and what's a lie.

If you alone have the true message, what has God been doing all these many centuries?

Remember that there are very few doctrines that are unique to the SDA church, because we believe that God has been leading many other people and many other churches before He led the SDA church. We don't teach that God only led the SDA church or that only SDAs know these truths. We believe that our church is the "remnant" church because we are the last part of the church that began in the first century. Therefore it makes sense that we would have many of the same beliefs and practices as the first century church. I wouldn't trust a group or church which has all new teachings that no one on earth has ever believed or taught before.

[Twilight]

I wouldn't trust a group or church which has all new teachings that no one on earth has ever believed or taught before.

Indeed.

Especially when they even consider that they had more light than an Apostle, that in fact their "light" shows them that this Apostle was actually a messenger of Satan.

The same Apostle whose writings and witness established to no small degree the whole Christian faith...

[Twilight]

In fact, do not the Muslims also say the very same thing in many ways?

[pnattmbtc]

It seems to me there has been very little discussion about the topic, "What is the Gospel." Instead there has been a lot of discussion about what should be included in Scripture. Perhaps a new topic should be started, entitled, "What should be included in Scripture?" Or, "Paul: What's wrong with him?"

I wrote, a bit previously:

Quote:

Regarding the topic at hand, what the Gospel is, I believe it is the revelation of Jesus Christ (not the book, but Jesus Christ Himself, as the revelation of God).

The issue of issues regarding the Great Controversy is the character of God. It is by means of misrepresenting God's character, that the enemy has deceived. Deception is his power. He seeks to vest God with his own attributes of character. Most people, including most Christians, have bought into this lie, believing God to be harsh, severe, cruel, and self-serving, as Satan is in reality, but totally unlike God's true character, which was revealed in Jesus Christ. Few believe God is really like Jesus Christ. Many claim to believe this, but they don't really, as their views of the behavior of God vs. that of Christ is as different as night and day.

A difficulty I have with the Paul stinks proposal is I don't see how it ties in with what I perceive to be the core issue, which is God's character. For example, what would it say about God if it were really true that most of the New Testament is not inspired? What would it say about God if the things being suggested as important (e.g. who is inspired; I'm not sure what the other important things are, because I don't see any posts directed to the topic, "What is the Gospel?") really are the important things, as opposed to the issues I've been suggesting, which are God's character and the principles by which He runs his government.

[Musicman1228]

John317,

OK, I see your point and concur. I now realize that it is my responsibility to start where you are and not have you start where I am. If I am willing to do this then you need also to be willing to not draw your own conclusions without hard evidence as well. The statement has been made that "the Bible is internally consistent". We could use this as a proposition as in formal debate: Proposed - that the Bible is completely internally consistent. Or: Proposed - the Bible is not internally consistent. In one of these you would defend, in the other I would defend. I will leave it to you to pick, or come up with another proposition of a more neutral nature.

[Dr. Rich]

MM, I don't concur. You both are just wasting your time. Everyone has been invited to read/hear all of our studies but none have accepted the free gift. This reminds me of the gift that Jesus promises to those in the whole world who would agree to take up their own cross and follow Him. Problem is, hardly anyone will take up their own cross, saying that Jesus did it already for them. If people refuse 'food' that has been presented to them, then they are not hungry. No one wants to be forced feed.

[John317]

Quote:

Lutz13:

I have a hard time believing that Paul's martyrdom was in vain. I also have a hard time believing that someone who has brought millions to Christ would be from Satan...

These are good points. I've thought the same thing before. I think Paul's letter have had the greatest influence on my own life. My favorite Gospel is Luke, and I love 2 Peter, especially the first chapter.

One of the requirements that the early Christians had for a writing to be accepted as Scripture was that it had to have a very clear influence in changing the lives of those who read it. In other words, it had to demonstrate the power of Christ to convert people to Him. And I can testify that this is what 2 Peter has done in my own life. The same with Hebrews and all the NT books. This is what it means to hear the voice of the great Shepherd. Jesus said his sheep will hear His voice.

I don't hear the devil speaking to me in those books, and that what it would have to be if some people's ideas are correct about them. The devil doesn't tell people to live for Christ and stop doing evil things. Instead, the devil comes to us and tells us to doubt the Bible and to cause divisions in the church. He tells us to throw out God's commandments and to accept the word of men in the place of God's word, which is essentially what he told Eve. He also tried to get Jesus to do the same. But Jesus said "IT IS WRITTEN," and that must be our only reply to those who would turn us aside from the complete message of the New Testament.

Quote:

Lutz13: Since almost every thread is hijacked from those three. It is best to ignore their bait and keep to the topic at hand. If everyone did this, perhaps they would go troll somewhere else.

As the moderator:

I'm also very concerned about threads that get hijacked, and I'm doing what I can to see that it's not done. But I also want to give our three friends the opportunity to talk about these issues when it's appropriate. I've met them in person before and therefore it's possible I see them more as individuals and as friends than I might otherwise. I don't delete anything simply because I disagree with it or don't like it. There are literally tens of thousands of posts on these threads that I disagree with and don't personally "like." That's not the standard. I say this because recently it's been something that another moderator brought up. If anyone could show valid, convincing evidence that I have done it, I would voluntarily stop being a moderator.

But you do have a legitimate point, and I take it seriously and will do what I can to prevent it from happening.

[Dr. Rich]

Lutz13 wrote: "I have a hard time believing that Paul's martyrdom was in vain. I also have a hard time believing that someone who has brought millions to Christ would be from Satan..."

I agree Lutz! I really had a hard time with it too, but truth is truth. I've been there and done that with defending him. Sorry my friends, but I will stick to the words of Jesus IF and when there is any controversy at all.

And you guys criticize me for this? Go fish!

[pnattmbtc]

Paul is greatly misunderstood. I think much of the animosity towards him comes from that.

[pnattmbtc]

Any chance the topic of this thread will be discussed?

[John317]

Go ahead and say what you want about the content of the gospel. Any posts posted NOT on the topic from here on out get deleted pronto, no questions asked.

[Guest]

God is leading a people in truth. And I know for a fact that God did not wait until just fifteen years ago, and decide to finally share the real truth with only three people. And for anyone to think that, is the ultimate all time high, of arrogance and ignorance, both at the same time.

God has always had a people willing to follow where He leads. And the number has never dropped to three, in the history of the world. They are obviously being led, otherwise they could not believe they are the three chosen ones like they do. But it is just as obvious to most everyone but them, that it is not God who is leading them.

[Guest]

I didn't see that until I posted. I'll put it on a different thread if you like.

[John317]

Question:

What is the content of the "the everlasting gospel" referred to in Rev. 14: 6--

Rev. 14:6

And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people.

FEEL FREE TO USE ANY BOOK IN THE BIBLE TO EXPLAIN.

[pnattmbtc]

I've made a number of posts already. I could repost one. I'll do that with what follows.

Regarding the topic question, what is the Gospel, the Gospel is the Good News of Jesus Christ. The Good News is that God is not how He has been misrepresented as being. God is also not how we, in our twisted, self-centered, egocentric minds naturally conceive Him to be, as One altogether like ourselves. Instead of that, God is like Jesus Christ.

The foundation of all sin it this: the lie that God is untrustworthy, the lie that God is not altogether loving and that He doesn't have our best interests in mind. Adam and Eve came under the grip of this deceptive picture of God. At that moment they stopped trusting God as their source of life. Consequently, they saw themselves as deficient.

A faulty picture of God led to an ungodly evaluation that in turn brought about a rebellious action. The lie created an emptiness as well as the futile and rebellious means of filling it. A false concept of God, and therefore of herself, gave birth to sinful behavior, which in turn brought about spiritual and physical death (see James 1:14-16).

Just as the foundation of all that separates us from God is a false picture of God, so too the foundation of all that restores our innocent communication with God is a true picture of God. So everything hangs on the question, Where do we find the true picture of God? The answer that the Bible unequivocally and emphatically gives is Jesus Christ.

Jesus is the truth that dispels the serpent's lie.

When God thinks, John is saying, it is Jesus. And when God expresses Himself, it is Jesus,wherever and whenever God thinks and expresses Himself, it is Jesus Christ.

Moreover, it has been this way throughout eternity.

This means that in knowing, we are not knowing someone "one step removed" from God. in knowing Jesus we are knowing God Himself, God in His eternal essence. In seeing Jesus, we are seeing the very heart of God.

Whereas the enemy covered up the true God in a veil of deceptive darkness that brought death, Jesus turns the light on so we can see who God really is. In doing this, Jesus gives life.

Only the revelation of God in Christ completely dispels all forms of the lie we have been deceived into believing. When our picture of God is built on any foundation other than Jesus Christ, we will be vulnerable to believing a lie about God. We will embrace a god that is consistent with our jaded presuppositions and fallible expectations, which keep us in bondage to the serpent's lie. Our understanding of God, ourselves, suffering and every other aspect of creation will be to some extent corrupted.

Idolatry takes place when we don't allow God to define Himself for us in Christ but rather embrace a picture of God on the basis of our life experiences, philosophical speculations or non-Christ-centered interpretations of Scripture.

All we can and need to know about God is found in Christ, for God fully dwells in and is revealed in Christ.

Christ was not an innocent third party who was punished against His will to appease the Father's wrath. Hence His sacrifice does not appease God's wrath; it reveals God's love. In the crucified Christ the truth about God, about us and about the world is most perfectly revealed. For the cross is where reconciliation between God and the world is accomplished.

Under the impact of the primordial deception, the "natural mind" does not expect the omnipotent Creator to like like this.

The most fundamental distinguishing characteristic of every false picture of God is that it qualifies and compromises the truth about God's love. The most fundamental distinguishing characteristic of the true God is that the love He is and the love He gives is unsurpassed. A greater love simply cannot be conceived.

The love that God eternally is, is manifested in the love that God gives. And the love God gives is displayed most perfectly on the cross.

[John317]

That's ok. :-)

[Musicman1228]

Is it possible to have a false picture of Jesus Christ and believe that it is a true picture? Wouldn't this be a reflection of who draws the picture you are looking at? Some pictures are true and others are forgeries. How do you know which is which?

[John317]

You mean like getting your picture of Jesus out of the Koran or out of the Lost Books of Eden? Like Jesus talking as an adult while he's an infant? Or making sparrows from mud and making them fly away?

Definitely false pictures.

Let's begin by talking about the picture we have of Jesus in the Old Testament and then work our way up to the book of Matthew and all the way through to Revelation. What is the gospel on that basis?

[Twilight]

Question:

What is the content of the "the everlasting gospel" referred to in Rev. 14: 6--

Rev. 14:6

And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people.

FEEL FREE TO USE ANY BOOK IN THE BIBLE TO EXPLAIN.

Gospel = Kingdom of God.

Kingdom of God = Indwelling of Holy Spirit.

Indwelling of Holy Spirit = Born again.

Good news of the Gospel is then being Born Again of the Spirit, through the Merits of Christ.