What is the Gospel?

[Musicman1228]

You mean like getting your picture of Jesus out of the Koran or out of the Lost Books of Eden? Like Jesus talking as an adult while he's an infant? Or making sparrows from mud and making them fly away?

Definitely false pictures.

Let's begin by talking about the picture we have of Jesus in the Old Testament and then work our way up to the book of Matthew and all the way through to Revelation. What is the gospel on that basis?

I am not talking about the Koran, etc. These are not wolves in sheep's clothing, these are wolves pure and simple. No Christian would be fooled by any of that. Its pictures of Jesus painted by people that are 'completely trustworthy' that are the wolves in sheep's clothing. You hear things all the time from sincere Christians such as "My God would never to THAT", or "Jesus would never condemn us, He has unconditional love". I agree with you, John, that the first place we need to look for the real Jesus begins in the Old Testament, and then moves to the eyewitnesses in the New Testament. This is why when I want a cosnsistent picture of Jesus I go to His picture of Himself, described by His own words.

Maybe I'm just a coward, but I am leery of descriptions of the character of Jesus Christ that focus on one or two aspects of His character but don't give a complete picture.

[Guest]

You mean like getting your picture of Jesus out of the Koran or out of the Lost Books of Eden?

Or out of the book that wayf, and MM wrote?

[Guest]

I am not talking about the Koran, etc. These are not wolves in sheep's clothing, these are wolves pure and simple. No Christian would be fooled by any of that. Its pictures of Jesus painted by people that are 'completely trustworthy' that are the wolves in sheep's clothing. You hear things all the time from sincere Christians such as "My God would never to THAT", or "Jesus would never condemn us, He has unconditional love".

Or "Nobody knows the truth except me and two other guys". ?

[pnattmbtc]

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Is it possible to have a false picture of Jesus Christ and believe that it is a true picture?

Sure! If you believe you have the "true" picture, then this would apply, as our pictures of God are impacted, among other things, by our character. If we recognize our pictures our faulty, that's the first step to our being humble and teachable, so God can reveal the truth about Himself to us.

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Wouldn't this be a reflection of who draws the picture you are looking at?

I'd say primarily what the picture is would be the primary thing.

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Some pictures are true and others are forgeries. How do you know which is which?

Primarily by the Holy Spirit, the same we know whether any spiritual truth is true.

[pnattmbtc]

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Let's begin by talking about the picture we have of Jesus in the Old Testament and then work our way up to the book of Matthew and all the way through to Revelation. What is the gospel on that basis?

I think starting with the Gospels is the best approach. First establish an theology of the character of God, based on the revelation of Jesus Christ while here in the flesh (the whole purpose of His earthly mission was the revelation of God), and then, after an accurate picture of God has been established, consider the more difficult passage from the perspective of the character which has been established.

All we can know of God was revealed by Jesus Christ while here in the flesh. That's a necessary and sufficient base.

[pnattmbtc]

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Gospel = Kingdom of God.

Kingdom of God = Indwelling of Holy Spirit.

Indwelling of Holy Spirit = Born again.

Good news of the Gospel is then being Born Again of the Spirit, through the Merits of Christ.

Where does the Great Controversy fit into this? Or God's character?

[Twilight]

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Gospel = Kingdom of God.

Kingdom of God = Indwelling of Holy Spirit.

Indwelling of Holy Spirit = Born again.

Good news of the Gospel is then being Born Again of the Spirit, through the Merits of Christ.

Where does the Great Controversy fit into this? Or God's character?

The Great Controversy is played out in each heart and mind.

What is the battle for?

"Authority".

God wants authority and Satan wants authority.

So it is through, and only through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that God wins the Great Controversy in each individuals case.

The ultimate revelation of Gods Character, is His desire to be that intimately close with us, that He wants to adopt us into His own personal family is my current understanding.

Again, this is only done through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

When each of us take the Gospel and apply it first to ourselves, we will realise that we should be focusing more on our "individual" Great Controversy and less on what the Pope happens to be doing today.

Instead of focusing on the Great Controversy as it affects everyone else, we should first seek the victory internally, through the Divine aid of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, then we might be qualified to be concerned about what the Pope had for breakfast this morning...

God bless,

Mark :-)

[pnattmbtc]

I don't think authority is an issue God is very much concerned about. Rather, I think character is the issue.

I don't know why the Pope is being referenced here. I've not said anything about the Pope.

What I've talked about is Satan. Satan achieves power (or authority, if you prefer) by misrepresenting God's character, as his power (or authority) comes by means of deception. By misrepresenting God's character, Satan deceived man and angels. In order to free man, it was necessary that God's character by represented correctly. This is what Jesus Christ did. The whole purpose of His earthly mission was the revelation of God's character, that we might be set right with Him.

[Twilight]

I don't think authority is an issue God is very much concerned about. Rather, I think character is the issue.

I don't know why the Pope is being referenced here. I've not said anything about the Pope.

They were general comments focusing on how we often miss our part in the GC in favour of pointing out others failings.

We Adventists can be very good at this at times. :-)

[Musicman1228]

Mark said, "God wants authority and Satan wants authority."

God does not 'want' authority, God HAS authority. What God wants/demands is OBEDIENCE. Obedience proves authority. Whom you obey has authority over you. Satan was the first to become disobedient. Then Satan convinced the peoples/nations of the earth to be obedient to him through the lie that he was their creator/god. Then Satan disrupted God's plan for bringing the world back to obedience to Him by causing Adam and Eve to be disobedient to ONE command - do not eat of this particular tree.

The entire goal of Satan is to get the whole world to be obedient to him by deceiving the world into believing that he is the true god of heaven. In this he succeeds.

And authority was given it over every tribe and people and language and nation, and all who dwell on earth will worship it, Rev. 13:7-8.

The only fly in the ointment is the fact that there is a Kingdom of Heaven on earth that chooses to not become part of the kingdom of the world. These people are IN the world but not OF the world.

Satan convinces the 'world' to believe in him as god by deceiving Christians (both Catholic and Protestant including SDA's), Muslims, Hindus, Jews, and all religions that he 'their god' has laid aside any requirement to keep the Law of God, that God will save all who declare that they love Him in spite of their sin, because it is impossible to 'not sin'. In other words Satan convinces the kingdom of the world to become 'lawless'. The only group on earth that does not buy into this is the Kingdom of the Heavens, because it is they that are 'Lawful', keeping the Commandments of God, and holding only to the testimony of Jesus Christ (Rev.12:17).

[Dr. Rich]

pnatt.. wrote "I think starting with the Gospels is the best approach. First establish an theology of the character of God, based on the revelation of Jesus Christ while here in the flesh (the whole purpose of His earthly mission was the revelation of God), and then, after an accurate picture of God has been established, consider the more difficult passage from the perspective of the character which has been established."

I hear lots of people talk about the 'character of God' and that we should be like God's character. Well, I have a problem with this in that Jesus did not say that His whole earthly mission was to reveal God's character, Jesus said He came to testify to the truth, not the the 'character'.

The whole true gospel is not about 'authority' 'character' or 'lawlessness', it is about God's kingdom and His constitution/covnent with the Host of this Kingdom. If you want to be among those who are in this Kingdom, then you must obey the law---period!

A lawless society is one where you pick and chose which law you want to obey. Jesus said if you do this you might as well not keep any of them. Therefore, when Jesus said that the gospel of (about) the Kingdom of Heaven will be preached to everyone before He comes again, then this is exactly what He meant. Preaching another gospel (Pauls) is just not the same no matter what the majority believe.

[Twilight]

Mark said, "God wants authority and Satan wants authority."

What God wants/demands is OBEDIENCE. Obedience proves authority.

God wants to give us obedience.

He does not want us to try to earn our way to heaven by trying to provide it ourselves.

Question:

If you can render obedience to God, in your own strength, why did Jesus have to die for your sins?

Why did He have to render obedience on your behalf?

If you are quite capable of doing it all yourself?

[Dr. Rich]

Twilight, your questions are easy to answer. "If you can render obedience to God, in your own strength, why did Jesus have to die for your sins?"

Jesus' death only made it possible for those of us who accept the price He paid to bond us out of dying the second death. You and I could pay this ourselves, but if we did, then what good would that do? That would be the total end!

Show me where Jesus said that His mission to this earth was to die for your sins, or anyone's sin?

Adam could have paid the price too, but then you and I would not be here-right? Therefore, Jesus only made it possible for us to escape the penalty by doing exactly what He tells us to do.

Just as God told Cain that HE must master sin himself, (Gen. 4:7) so all of us must make the choice to obey too. God has promised salvation for those who love and trust Him and totally obey His words. It is in His contract. He will be your God ONLY if you totally obey. There are no ifs or buts.

It is fiction to believe that anyone can get to heaven who has not overcome sin themselves just because someone taught that Jesus' robe of righteousness (blood) will cover up your own filthy rags (sins). God is not blind!

Jesus did NOT have to render obedience on our behalf, He did it because His Father told Him to do this. All He did was obey His Father's will.

[pnattmbtc]

The issue isn't authority but character. Thinking of thing in terms of authority is the way the enemy wants to couch the issue, IMO. The enemy thinks it's about power (or authority), and hence the attack upon the law, to try to cloud the issue. But the issue is character.

If one has a right character, one will do the right thing, because character is defined by what one thinks/speaks/does; that is, by the choices one makes. So having a right character is sufficient for one to deal with the obedience issues the enemy would raise.

The reason character is the real issue is made clear by the following, I believe:

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Those who have chosen Satan as their leader and have been controlled by his power are not prepared to enter the presence of God. Pride, deception, licentiousness, cruelty, have become fixed in their characters. Can they enter heaven to dwell forever with those whom they despised and hated on earth? Truth will never be agreeable to a liar; meekness will not satisfy self-esteem and pride; purity is not acceptable to the corrupt; disinterested love does not appear attractive to the selfish. What source of enjoyment could heaven offer to those who are wholly absorbed in earthly and selfish interests?

... A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God. (GC 542, 543)

What this brings out is that one's inability to enter heaven is not due to a decree on God's part, based on an examination, wherein the person not allowed to enter is upset, because he wants to enter in, but God won't let him. Rather, it's the person's own lack of fitness, his character, that prevents him from entering in.

God would be happy to have anyone in heaven. He loves all. But many would be miserable there. Heaven would be torture to them. They don't want to be there. So they do not enter in, because of their character.

So it's the character that we develop which determines our ability to enter into heaven without it's being a place of torture for us.

Now by beholding we become changed. Hence knowing God is essential, that we may develop characters like His, characters that would enable us to be happy in His presence, happy to do His will, to live by the principles of His government, to love and be loved.

[Twilight]

Twilight, your questions are easy to answer. "If you can render obedience to God, in your own strength, why did Jesus have to die for your sins?"

Jesus' death only made it possible for those of us who accept the price He paid to bond us out of dying the second death. You and I could pay this ourselves, but if we did, then what good would that do? That would be the total end!

Show me where Jesus said that His mission to this earth was to die for your sins, or anyone's sin?

Adam could have paid the price too, but then you and I would not be here-right? Therefore, Jesus only made it possible for us to escape the penalty by doing exactly what He tells us to do.

Just as God told Cain that HE must master sin himself, (Gen. 4:7) so all of us must make the choice to obey too. God has promised salvation for those who love and trust Him and totally obey His words. It is in His contract. He will be your God ONLY if you totally obey. There are no ifs or buts.

It is fiction to believe that anyone can get to heaven who has not overcome sin themselves just because someone taught that Jesus' robe of righteousness (blood) will cover up your own filthy rags (sins). God is not blind!

Jesus did NOT have to render obedience on our behalf, He did it because His Father told Him to do this. All He did was obey His Father's will.

The obedience you seek was created in Christ.

The Holy Spirit imparts it.

It is as you receive that, you receive strength to obey.

It is absolutely impossible for man to render obedience in his own strength.

Anyone who thinks he can is either deluded or lying.

Are you practicing this perfection you are presenting Dr Rich?

Are you "obedient", fully in every point of Gods will?

Are you doing that?

[Twilight]

The issue isn't authority but character. Thinking of thing in terms of authority is the way the enemy wants to couch the issue, IMO. The enemy thinks it's about power (or authority), and hence the attack upon the law, to try to cloud the issue. But the issue is character.

If our character does not recognise Gods authority, then our character is faulty.

Eve rejected Gods character and authority.

A Christlike Character submits everything to Gods authority.

As did Christ in the Garden of Gethsemane.

To say thinking about authority as the central issue is a thought of the devil is a bit strong I think...

We cannot seperate Gods authority from the Great Controversy.

As that is the whole point, does God have the right to exercise authority?

Yes.

Why?

Because He is absolutely loving.

Love is the very basis of authority in His Kingdom.

[pnattmbtc]

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p:The issue isn't authority but character. Thinking of thing in terms of authority is the way the enemy wants to couch the issue, IMO. The enemy thinks it's about power (or authority), and hence the attack upon the law, to try to cloud the issue. But the issue is character.

T:If our character does not recognize Gods authority, then our character is faulty.

Of course. I pointed this out by saying that if our character is right, we will obey God.

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Eve rejected Gods character and authority.

The authority really wasn't the issue. It was a symptom.

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A Christlike Character submits everything to Gods authority.

Of course.

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As did Christ in the Garden of Gethsemane.

To say thinking about authority as the central issue is a thought of the devil is a bit strong I think...

That's not what I said. What I said is I believe that the enemy couches things in terms of power (or authority), which serves as a misdirection to the real issue, which is character. It's easy for us to think in terms of power, or authority, because that's what drives the world that we live in. But the kingdom of God is not like our world. It's not power (or authority) that is the driving thing, but character. Jesus explained this by pointing out that the greatest in the kingdom of heaven is the one who serves others. Our authority derives from not how many are under us, but by how many we serve. Christ (or one could say God equally as well) as the greatest servant has the greatest authority. His authority is derived from His character.

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We cannot separate Gods authority from the Great Controversy.

I wouldn't say separate it, but it's not the chief issue.

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As that is the whole point, does God have the right to exercise authority?

I don't think this is a particularly helpful way of conceptualizing the problem. The really problem has to do with being deceived in regards to God's character. If we think that this is a problem of authority, I don't think that helps solve our problem. It seems to me it makes it seem as if God is wanting authority, determined to have it, and will do anything necessary to obtain and hold it. This doesn't seem to me to be either a flattering or accurate picture of God's character.

Also, I don't think anyone is disputing whether God has the right to exercise authority, but the dispute is over *how* God exercises it. This is because they view God as exercising authority as we would, which gets back to the problem of God's character. Authority for God is not as it is for us.

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Yes.

Why?

Because He is absolutely loving.

Love is the very basis of authority in His Kingdom.

This sounds like saying the same thing as that character is the very basis of authority.

[Guest]

The issue isn't authority but character. Thinking of thing in terms of authority is the way the enemy wants to couch the issue, IMO.

It was to make an inroad on the territory of Satan, and dispute his usurped authority, and reclaim the kingdom unto Himself, that Christ died. {18MR 54.3}

The Sabbath question is to be the issue in the great final conflict in which all the world will act a part. Men have honored Satan's principles above the principles that rule in the heavens. They have accepted the spurious sabbath, which Satan has exalted as the sign of his authority. But God has set His seal upon His royal requirement. Each sabbath institution bears the name of its author, an ineffaceable mark that shows the authority of each. It is our work to lead the people to understand this. {6T 352}

In his rebellion, Satan showed contempt for the authority of God, and virtually trampled upon every precept of his law. {ST, September 14, 1882 par. 10}

And Satan knows that his usurped authority will soon be forever at an end. {PH133 7.1}

[Guest]

Show me where Jesus said that His mission to this earth was to die for your sins, or anyone's sin?

[Dr. Rich]

Richard, behave!!! Everyone of the verses you provided I agree with and agree with what I wrote--can't you see that or are you jaded in your understanding? Mat.1:21 see the word "HIS"? 1Jn3:5 see the word "OUR"? 1Jn 1:7 see the word "US"? Zec 3:3 see the word "HIM"? And Rev. 1:5 see the word "US"?

I know it is hard for you to see this, but in every verse your provided it is NOT talking about everyone on the face of the earth! It is talking to those who have become righteous by obedience to God's word.

Common sense (if there is such a thing anymore) should tell you that sin and God will not co-exist with each other. I for one, would appreciated it if you would not attempt to tell people that they don't have to obey the law because it is impossible for you to do this anymore. The history of Adventism will show that keeping the ten commandments important to them. No other organization on this earth believes that keeping the ten commandments is very important as much as the early Adventists. If you can find one that was organized at the end of the 2300 year time period and thought Jesus was going to come at that time just as the early Adventists did, then I would like to know who they were/are.

Yes, it is about authority. But I doubt if there will ever be and national sunday law.

[pnattmbtc]

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p:The issue isn't authority but character. Thinking of thing in terms of authority is the way the enemy wants to couch the issue, IMO.

It was to make an inroad on the territory of Satan, and dispute his usurped authority, and reclaim the kingdom unto Himself, that Christ died. {18MR 54.3}

The whole purpose of Christ's earthly mission was the revelation of God.

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Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.(ST 1/20/90)

Satan's usurpation of God's authority was on the basis of his misrepresentation of God's character. DA Chapter One explains this.

Quote:

The Sabbath question is to be the issue in the great final conflict in which all the world will act a part. Men have honored Satan's principles above the principles that rule in the heavens. They have accepted the spurious sabbath, which Satan has exalted as the sign of his authority. But God has set His seal upon His royal requirement. Each sabbath institution bears the name of its author, an ineffaceable mark that shows the authority of each. It is our work to lead the people to understand this. {6T 352}

The law is a transcript of God's character. We accomplish our work by explaining this.

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In his rebellion, Satan showed contempt for the authority of God, and virtually trampled upon every precept of his law. {ST, September 14, 1882 par. 10}

Again, the law is a transcript of God's character.

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And Satan knows that his usurped authority will soon be forever at an end. {PH133 7.1}

Of course; God's character will be made known. That's what leads to the end of Satan's reign.

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

pnatt.. wrote "I think starting with the Gospels is the best approach. First establish an theology of the character of God, based on the revelation of Jesus Christ while here in the flesh (the whole purpose of His earthly mission was the revelation of God), and then, after an accurate picture of God has been established, consider the more difficult passage from the perspective of the character which has been established."

I hear lots of people talk about the 'character of God' and that we should be like God's character.

Our character's should be like God's character. Or one could say, we should be like God in character.

This is true, isn't it?

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Well, I have a problem with this in that Jesus did not say that His whole earthly mission was to reveal God's character, Jesus said He came to testify to the truth, not the the 'character'.

Actually, he did say this. John, in particular, makes this clear. Consider his prayer in John 17, for example.

John starts out, in chapter 1, saying that no one has seen God at any time, but His only Son, who knew Him best, has shown us what God is really like. (John 1:18).

This is the theme of John (indeed, the theme of Scripture).

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The whole true gospel is not about 'authority' 'character' or 'lawlessness', it is about God's kingdom and His constitution/covnent with the Host of this Kingdom.

"The kingdom of God is within you." This is character.

It is our character that determines our fitness for heaven.

Jesus said, "As a man thinketh in His heart, so is he." This is character.

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If you want to be among those who are in this Kingdom, then you must obey the law---period!

If your character is out of harmony with God's, you can't. The Pharisees showed this. They had an outward conformity, but their hearts were unconverted. This is a problem of character.

Without a right character, one cannot obey--period!

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A lawless society is one where you pick and chose which law you want to obey. Jesus said if you do this you might as well not keep any of them. Therefore, when Jesus said that the gospel of (about) the Kingdom of Heaven will be preached to everyone before He comes again, then this is exactly what He meant. Preaching another gospel (Pauls) is just not the same no matter what the majority believe.

The real issue is character. Choosing a law to obey displays a fault of character. We should live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. That's the character of Christ.

[Dr. Rich]

What is the difference between character and nature?

[John317]

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Dr. Rich: What is the difference between character and nature?

One is born with "nature." That nature is "human." Dogs are born with a doggish nature. They can't help but be doggish and do doggish things.

But one acquires a character through one's life experience and by the moral choices one makes from day to day. One's nature doesn't change; it's static. We will always be human thoughtout eternity. But an individual's character can and does change, particularly the character of a born-again Christian.

A monkey has a nature and even a personality, for sure, but would it be correct to say a monkey developes or acquires character? None of the ones I know ever have.

[pnattmbtc]

I agree with what John317 wrote, in general, although the word "nature" can be used in a non-static way, as a synonym for "character." For example, before knowing Christ, one could say that James and John had a rough nature, but they came to have a more gentle nature. So the context could indicate the word was being used differently.

"Nature" is one of those words which have quite a few definitions. So "it depends."