What is the Gospel?

[Guest]

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Thinking outside the box is fine. Where I see a problem is with what I perceive (hopefully wrongly) to be your idea that one can be living in sin and yet be saved, as long as one ascribes to the correct theological formula. We're not saved by mentally assenting to the right formula, but by having a living relationship with the Savior Jesus Christ.

Amen again.

Could it be that Robert only knows Jack, and not Jesus? No wonder he's so ill tempered.

[Just*]

Romans: The Clearest Gospel of All

by E.H. “Jack” Sequeira

#20 – O Wretched Man

(Romans 7:14-25)

So the “I” doesn’t refer to Paul as an individual. He uses the word “I” to refer to corporate man. In other words, he’s using the word “I” in a generic sense. What Paul is saying is, “This is true of every human being who tries to live the life of the law INDEPENDENT of God.” Why? Because the law is spiritual and I am unspiritual (or “carnal”) and these two cannot conform. The flesh cannot conform to the law in and of itself. Therefore, the issue is not whether Paul is talking about the believer or the unbeliever.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

The character doesn't change at death.

The man of Romans 7 has a character fit for heaven. Character simply means your mind-set.

Not so Robert.

That man was under condemnation.

It is only the Spirit led man that is not under condemnation.

[John317]

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Robert: Are you living Christ's life or not?

Why are you asking this?

In your view, does anyone live Christ's life? Has anyone, ever? Do you?

[Robert]

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Robert: Are you living Christ's life or not?

Why are you asking this?

In your view, does anyone live Christ's life? Has anyone, ever? Do you?

None of you guys because you make it conditional upon gaining heaven. This is sin...it's man's pride...it's ego...it's rejecting that "in Christ" you are fully qualified for heaven now!

[Overaged]

quote=Robert]"Jesus...thought not, planned not, lived not, for himself." Since you are claiming to live His life everything you do is for others, right? You do nothing for yourself besides nourishment of your body (food, water and clothing). /quote]

quote=Overaged]how will I get dressed in the morning if all I can do is eat and drink? Do I do this naked?/quote]

Try reading....

Well; I have been reading lots here, and I don't see one word detailing how I am to get dressed in the mornings so I don't have to eat and drink naked every day. After all; if that's all one has to do to "live the life of Christ;" they don't even need Him. Bingo! Another saved by works system.

Jack was good at that too. His mechanical rote is so impractical, I don't know how anyone can fall for it. I admire many things you write here Robert, so this is not just directed at you personally. Please forgive me if I have offended, I am just stating an opinion on a system of belief that I think is more confusing than it is helpful. You seem quite proud of not being "bound by denominationalism. I would also question that as that is not a part of the gospel. God has a denominated people on earth, Maybe He is calling you to there.

[oldsailor29]

The life one lives, that which one characteristically does, one's habits, that which one usually does defines one's character. Before the end of time, all characters will be fully developed. All people will either have characters like Jesus or like Satan. There will not be any middle ground characters.

Until then people will tend toward the characters they are developing. Those who are developing Christ-like characters will follow the golden rule and look to Jesus Christ for guidance, while those who are developing Satan-like characters will act more and more like Satan.

While we may not be able to see motivations, we can see what people usually do and we can thereby form likely valid opinions about character.

[Woody]

Overaged .... Naked is good. That's the way God made us. God longs to strip us of the material goods that we place upon ourselves. He also longs to strip us of the non-Biblical goods that we place in our hearts and minds.

We need to strip off all the filth and come clean before God.

Maybe a good shower is in order.

[Overaged]

Overaged .... Naked is good. That's the way God made us. God longs to strip us of the material goods that we place upon ourselves. He also longs to strip us of the non-Biblical goods that we place in our hearts and minds.

We need to strip off all the filth and come clean before God.

Maybe a good shower is in order.

Ha! ha! Well after I eat and get dressed Woody; I weld for ten hours, and NAKED DOES NOT WORK FOR WELDERS

[Woody]

Okay. I understand about the stray sparks. But naked is still good if at all possible. :)

[pnattmbtc]

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The reason why I’m emphasizing this is because I want to make something very clear which is the plain teaching of the New Testament. Even if God were to give you total victory over sins — and I believe He can do that — you are still a sinner because your nature doesn’t change in sanctification. All that changes is your character.

This is the essential thing, that the character changes. That's exactly what *needs* to change!

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Therefore, you’re still a sinner and your only hope is the umbrella of justification by faith.

This isn't the issue. Or nature changes at translation. God could change anyone's nature. If the problem were simply one of nature, God could change everyone's nature, and everyone would be saved.

[Overaged]

Okay. I understand about the stray sparks. But naked is still good if at all possible.

If my dim and fading memory serves me correctly Woody, there actually is an application of the word "naked" to "the true gospel." Maybe we could explore that here a bit. When I have time I will come back to do that, and yes; I will take off my welder's clothes ONLY for that.

[Woody]

cool

[Woody]

Isaiah walked around naked for three years. It can't be ALL that bad.

(Of course .... I don't think he did any welding.)

[Woody]

Heb.4:12-13 "For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things [are] naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. "

[pnattmbtc]

Character is more than mind-set. Character is the result of repeated decisions/actions/thoughts. Character determines how one would act under pressure.

[pnattmbtc]

p:I agree with Jack's conclusion here. I think too much is made of whether it's before conversion Paul or after conversion Paul rather than to the point Sequeira brings out here, which is that, to the argument Paul is making, *it doesn't matter*.

R:Dude...you misread Jack. If you look at the context Jack states that the man of Romans 7 is converted.

What he is stating above is that it doesn't matter if you are converted or unconverted you can't conquer your bent-to-self by your will power.....That was his point.....

Here's Jack: "The reasons why I believe that Paul had the believer in mind (and I gave the reasons before) are at least four reasons because:"

[SivartM]

I really don't think it matters so much whether or not Romans 7 Person is saved. People who are reading Romans with a humble attitude ought to be able to apply the book to their own lives without being hit over the head with someone else's strict interpretation. I think we can all relate to Romans 7 and 8 without needing to work out every detail of their subject's life.

[John317]

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pnattmbtc:Character is more than mind-set. Character is the result of repeated decisions/actions/thoughts. Character determines how one would act under pressure.

Yes, right. Character is not shown when everything is going right. Like you say, it's best shown when things are going very badly, as in the case of Job. I think that is one of the main reasons for the terrible events that will occur just before Christ returns. God wants the universe to see what His church is really made of. Many will fall away because they didn't trim their lamps or use the oil of God's Spirit during this time of preparation.

[John317]

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SivartM: I really don't think it matters so much whether or not Romans 7 Person is saved.

I think you're right, as long as people don't think the experience of the man of Romans 7 is the experience that God intends Christians to continue in. That man is struggling on his own, without God's Holy Spirit-- which you'll notice there's no mention of it in Romans 7. That's not God's ideal for us. Romans 8 shows us how God wants us to live, and there's no reason for believers not to have that experience because God has provided for it.

What do you think of it if you put 2 Peter 1: 1-11 together with Romans 6 and 8?

They show that while Romans 7 is something all Christians pass through, God doesn't want us to stay in it. I was like that person for over 30 years, but when I look back, I'm sure that I wasn't really converted. I wanted Christ but I also wanted to keep some of my favorite sins. That's Romans 7. A person who is truly converted to Christ and has the Spirit in his life will not want to keep his sins. Cherishing one's sins is a sign of not being fully surrended to Christ and of not being led by the Holy Spirit. Ellen White says that one cherished sin will keep us out of heaven. Those who are practicing and cherishing sin at the time of the sealing will be left alone by the sealing angels. God will not force us to give up our sins. If we want them, He'll not pull them away from us while we're holding on to them.

[Robert]

No, character is your mindset....Failure happens because of the weakness of our flesh. The heart desires to do selfless acts because of the Spirit, but the flesh is bent-to-self so everything it does (even the seemingly good things) is for gain.

Unless the Spirit is allowed to take on the flesh the mind will lose. That's what Romans 7 is about. Is there any condemnation for the one struggling and failing? No! Why? Because of the truth as it is "in Christ".

[pnattmbtc]

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No, character is your mindset.

Here's a definition for character:

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The inherent complex of attributes that determines a persons moral and ethical actions and reactions.

Here's the concept:

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If you have become estranged and have failed to be Bible Christians, be converted; for the character you bear in probationary time will be the character you will have at the coming of Christ. If you would be a saint in heaven, you must first be a saint on earth. The traits of character you cherish in life will not be changed by death or by the resurrection. You will come up from the grave with the same disposition you manifested in your home and in society. Jesus does not change the character at His coming. The work of transformation must be done now. Our daily lives are determining our destiny. {AH 16.2}

I'm not sure what you have in mind by "mind set." I think of "mind set" as akin to "paradigm," and would agree that this is very important, vital even, in terms of developing a character, but "mind set" and "character" are two different concepts.

[Guest]

Yep. That's true pnatt.

[teresaq]

I really don't think it matters so much whether or not Romans 7 Person is saved. People who are reading Romans with a humble attitude ought to be able to apply the book to their own lives without being hit over the head with someone else's strict interpretation. I think we can all relate to Romans 7 and 8 without needing to work out every detail of their subject's life.

i think that, for many, the legalism of so many in the church, like the jews of old and the multitude of man-made regulations, confuses the issue...

in other words our experiences color how we read...the goal, if you dont mind my saying, is recognizing the difference between the mentality of God, and the mentality of the religionist...

it also colors how we will react...

God does require "perfection", but is it the same "perfection" that man preaches?

[pnattmbtc]

Hey, teresa! Nice to see you back! Haven't heard from you in a while.

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In other words our experiences color how we read...the goal, if you don't mind my saying, is recognizing the difference between the mentality of God, and the mentality of the religionist...

This is a great point! That is a good goal! The goal should be not only to recognize the difference, but to have the mentality of God, as opposed to that of the religionist. I believe that much of Christ's teaching involved exactly this. For example, the story of the Good Samaritan is a good example of this principle.

I think much of theology is involved in this point. A lot of theology is involved with trying to address issues which don't even exist, because they aren't problems in the "mentality of God." For example, the whole concept of Anselm's, that God needs a blood sacrifice to uphold His honor, fits into this category. In reality, God is "forgiveness personified," and doesn't need a sacrifice in order to legally enable Him to forgive us. *We* need the sacrifice in order to be forgiven by Him. I know the point here can be a bit confusing, so here's a favorite quote of mine to explain it clearly:

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The life of Christ was not the price paid to the Father for our pardon; but that life was the price which the Father paid to so manifest his loving power as to bring us to that repentant attitude of mind where he could pardon us freely.("God is Love" by George Fifield)