She pastors 7,000+ men and women SDAs

[Gregory Matthews]

http://www.atoday.com/content/female-pastor-leads-7000-member-adventist-church-china-video

Check it out.Is God leading? Or is God not leading.

[karl]

Religious persecution has been alive and well in China. The state will not tolerate any dissent from it's policies and teachings. I have a Chinese friend whose brother spent five years in prison for publishing a photo which was taken in such a way as to position a woman's figure on a nightclub marquee above a distant photo of Mao. It was considered a great crime.

By imprisonment and harassment of male leaders, China has pushed all denominations (not just SDA) toward female leadership. It the government's way of dissing Christianity.

Have you noticed how many female leaders there are in China's government?

[olger]

I believe you are citing an abstract example here, Greg. With most of the men languishing in prison, there is a shortage.

g

[Woody]

Praise God. He is calling His people. Thanks for posting this Greg. I am thankful that there are ordained women pastors in China. They are needed and doing a great work for God.

[Gregory Matthews]

I believe you are citing an abstract example here, Greg. With most of the men languishing in prison, there is a shortage.

g

Abstract: The SDA Church recognizes women in China a ordained SDA ministers. They pastor churches and exercise leadership over the men and women in their congregations.

God is blessing their efforts to promote the kingdom of God.

[Stan]

this was intertesting timing for me, I was in a meeting with someone who is very connected with that church.

The reason for women leadership is, and this is going to come back on me...

Women work and get things done, men want to do 'leadership'

Lot's of males available, they have leaders who actually do things... and are they ever doing thing.

[John317]

Quote:

Gregory Matthews:

Abstract: The SDA Church recognizes women in China a ordained SDA ministers. They pastor churches and exercise leadership over the men and women in their congregations.

God is blessing their efforts to promote the kingdom of God.

We can be thankful to God that women in China are stepping in to fill the vaccum left by the men. If men don't fulfill their responsibilities, which is leadership, the women have no choice but to step up to the plate and take over if the work is ever going to be accomplished. This is also what happens in the home when men abandon their God-given responsibilities, but that is no reason to conclude that men shouldn't be doing them and that God wants women to keep doing them instead. I don't believe anyone is saying that women can't do the work or are incapable or not talented enough. That is not the issue.

What is going on there isn't typical because the atheistic communist party which runs the government also controls the churches and determines ultimately who is in charge of the churches. The party watches over the churches and has its observers who see everything that goes on in order to make sure they don't do anything the party doesn't want. As a matter of fact, you can be certain that the pastors and leaders of the church are in some way held responsible by the party for acitivities and teachings of the churches. They wouldn't be in allowed to be in their positions if they weren't willing to cooperate with their party supervisors.

This is from the wikipedia, and are very significant statements about what's going on in China with regard to the churches:

Quote:

Religious practices are still often tightly controlled by government authorities.

....China is ruled by the Communist Party of China (CPC) under a single-party system.

And in the news on April 29, 2010:

WASHINGTON – Saudi Arabia and China are among 13 countries a U.S. government panel named on Thursday as serious violators of religious freedom.

Having said that, we can certainly be glad and praise God for any freedom the churches have to teach the gospel. But it would be even better if they were FREE to follow the Bible pattern in its practices of leadership. China still doesn't have true freedom of religion. Therefore, it makes no sense to look to China as an example of what God wants in the rest of the world church in terms of church structure and government. The Bible is still our standard for church government, as it is also for doctrine, faith and practice.

[Tom Wetmore]

As Stan has pointed out, it is not that no men are available in that land of billions of people. Surly an all-powerful, all-knowing God could find at least one man upon whom He can lay His hands to empower for such important leadership! BUT... The fact is that God sees no problem with a woman as pastor/minister/leader. That should be self-evident for those who will see and those who will hear. Is not the obvious success of her ministry sufficient evidence that God is pleased and is blessing her efforts accordingly? Why do we seek to minimize the role and function of women when God is maximizing it. Maybe God would like to use such an opportunity to teach us a thing or two!

Just as with His selection of EGW as our prophet, we diminish God's choice of a woman by saying she was his third round draft pick after two male prophet drop-outs. Again wouldn't an all-knowing God, knowing the end from the beginning, been able to know who he would have ended up with anyway and just gone to her first? Much strange speculation and minimizing has attempted to second-guess God on that choice. But here is a thought worth considering - In the early Advent Movement God actually wanted more than one prophet. (In OT times He often had more than one serving him at once...) And He sent out 3 angels with "the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on earth..." God called and wanted 3 special messengers (maybe more) in the Advent Movement for the end of time work that would be greater than any one human could handle... And three separate independent messengers delivering the same truth forms a triangulation of confirmation of the truth of the message. (It may have been that the only purpose of Foss and Foy was to provide proof of Who was doing the calling confirming that indeed EGW was called by God...) One doing all the work makes it harder. But in the end the last man standing... was a woman.

But God did not blink, back down or go back to the drawing board. He just blessed what He ended up with. God can do anything with anybody. Just as God set up Gideon for impossible odds, He said, "A woman can do it. Why? Because "it is not by might or by power, but by my Word." And the message got through and was accepted as from God.

Let that be a lesson for us all.

Let's stop limiting our God. Women are on His team and always have been.

[Woody]

Excellent Tom. We are just a vessel. There is no good in us. God can speak through the rocks if needed. Surely ... he can speak through a woman.

[Tom Wetmore]

Absolutely!

God keeps trying to work through everyone, cracked and broken clay pots that we are. Isn't it interesting that God sees our limitless potential, regardless of who we are, but we seek to put limits on what God can do and who He can do it through!?!?

[BobRyan]

http://www.atoday.com/content/female-pastor-leads-7000-member-adventist-church-china-video

Check it out.Is God leading? Or is God not leading.

[Gregory Matthews]

If this is a case that is not all that it is supposed to be, it is a single case and does not speak to what the GC President wrote about in the article in the Review.

[Tom Wetmore]

The article to which Gregory refers is http://news.adventist.org/2009/05/adventist-presidents.html

Within China, this was not an isolated instance where "a woman elder happened to be preaching one day" or of a "layperson" just "functioning in the role as senior pastor".

As the article noted, there are estimated to be 400,000 Adventists in China. More than half of the pastors serving those members are women. (It is worth noting that that means that nearly half of the pastors in China are men. So there is no lack or shortage of men from which to have chosen leadership. It is just that the best choice of church leadership in China often happens to be female.)

And the several women pastors mentioned in the article were leaders of multiple congregations and some are functioning much as our conference leadership.

While much is made of the female senior pastor responsible for multiple congregations and over 7,000 members, it is even more noteworthy that one of the other female pastors, Zu Xiu Hua, a church planter, is responsible for starting and overseeing over 380 new congregations that now have over 20,000 members.

God is blessing women in ministry and church leadership in China. I have no doubt whatsoever in my mind that He can do likewise anywhere else on earth. It is time... long past time for us to get out of God's way. Let's unbind the hands of the other half of His chosen vessels and get off our own hands and use them to lay hands on whomever He ordains, male or female.

[karl]

It is worth noting that that means that nearly half of the pastors in China are men. So there is no lack or shortage of men from which to have chosen leadership. It is just that the best choice of church leadership in China often happens to be female.

And the several women pastors mentioned in the article were leaders of multiple congregations and some were functioned much as our conference leadership.

I'm contacting the GC about this today. If there is no shortage of pastors, why are pastors having to lead multiple congregations?

[Tom Wetmore]

I said there is "no lack or shortage of men from which to have chosen leadership." That is quite different from say there is a shortage of pastors. It is quite normal for a pastor to serve multiple congregations, especially outside of North America.

[karl]

I said there is "no lack or shortage of men from which to have chosen leadership." That is quite different from say there is a shortage of pastors. It is quite normal for a pastor to serve multiple congregations, especially outside of North America.

Surely in a church of 7000 members there could be a person or two available for ministry, don't you think?

[SivartM]

You don't have to be a pastor to minister.

At least, that's what they say to women who want to be pastors...

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

So male pastors aren't listened to in China. They don't have big mega-churches. That's interesting.

[Tom Wetmore]

karl, please read the news article that I provided a link for.

The article indicates that Pastor Hao Ya Jie and her "fellow leaders" coordinate the ministries and outreach for the largest church of about 3000 members and 100 or so smaller congregations for a total of 7000 members. (With 7000 members, that would be larger than about 12 local conferences and about the same size as 4 more local conferences within the North American Division.) She is not alone. She has others serving with her. She is their leader or senior pastor. The largest church, the Beiguan church, "acts much like a local conference does in typical church administrative structure." That would sort of make her the equivalent of a local conference president.

[Tom Wetmore]

So male pastors aren't listened to in China...

What gave you that impression?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

little churches = few members

Maybe they don't say "Hail Mao" at the beginning of the services.

[Tom Wetmore]

I still don't get how you have arrived at that conclusion...

[karl]

I sent an Email to the China Union Mission. Hopefully they will respond and then we'll have what they say about the conditions over there regarding women in ministry.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

do you really think you'll get an uncensored email from China?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I still don't get how you have arrived at that conclusion...

It IS a conundrum, isn't it?