She pastors 7,000+ men and women SDAs

[John317]

Quote:

Tom Wetmore: Is not the obvious success of her ministry sufficient evidence that God is pleased and is blessing her efforts accordingly?

The same argument has been used to support practicing gays in the ministry, and one day we will hear the same thing being said in order to persuade people that God wants openly gay SDA pastors.

This must be our answer: It doesn't matter how blessed they appear to be-- it is still wrong. People are blessed when they break the Sabbath, but that fact doesn't mean God wants people to break the Sabbath. Yet there are those who interpret it that way. The Bible is our standard. The issue of WO can therefore only be resolved theologically.

The fact that God is blessing women pastors in China is no proof that God wants women to serve throughout the world church in those capacities. We need to consider the unique situation that the women and the churches face there.

This is from the wikipedia, and are very significant statements about what's going on in China with regard to the churches:

Quote:

Religious practices are still often tightly controlled by government authorities.

....China is ruled by the Communist Party of China (CPC) under a single-party system.

And in the news on April 29, 2010:

WASHINGTON – Saudi Arabia and China are among 13 countries a U.S. government panel named on Thursday as serious violators of religious freedom.

[Tom Wetmore]

That is simply illogical and makes no sense.

Are you suggesting that God blesses the efforts of those that do wrong and go against his will, even sin against God? That seems to be rather un-Biblical.

Or are you suggesting that what may seem to only "appear" as a blessing may not be? That it is simply a charade, a facade put up to deceive? Or that the blessing may not be from God?

Our long held position and practice, backed by Scripture and EGW's writings, is that the validation of a call to ministry sufficient to qualify a minister to be ordained is specifically souls won to Christ. This success of ministry is regarded as evidence of God's blessing and proof of the minister's calling to ministry.

As for religious persecution in China, how exactly does that negate the obvious blessing of the efforts for our pastors in China? I would suggest it provides even stronger validation since despite this real adversity, persecution and the obstacles to success, God still is blessing their ministry.

[Neil D]

Quote:

This must be our answer: It doesn't matter how blessed they appear to be-- it is still wrong. People are blessed when they break the Sabbath, but that fact doesn't mean God wants people to break the Sabbath. Yet there are those who interpret it that way. The Bible is our standard. The issue of WO can therefore only be resolved theologically.

The country of china is rather large. They have done thier studies and they have desired God's will to be done. They have done thier best, and God has blessed thier efforts...

What you are insisting on is counter to God's blessings. If they are wrong, then they are outside God's will. If they are outside God's will, then Satan is blessing them. If Satan is blessing them, then the church is misrepresenting God.

If that is the case, God will not allow a misrepresentation of who He really is...

And that doesn't seem to be the case....

[karl]

Quote:

Tom Wetmore: Is not the obvious success of her ministry sufficient evidence that God is pleased and is blessing her efforts accordingly?

Would you consider the success of Sun Yung Moon (leader of the Moonies) to be evidence of God's blessing on the owner of all those Rolls Royces?

How about the success of Joel Osteen? Jimmy Swaggert? Oral Roberts? Benny Hinn?

The success of the Frisbee is not necessarily evidence of God's blessing.

[Tom Wetmore]

...The issue of WO can therefore only be resolved theologically...

And there's the rub...

That is a point on which I have to disagree. I, and many others, do not believe that it is only, if even primarily or at all, a theological issue. To completely theologize this issue is just a convenient excuse to ignore, explain away and minimize a whole lot of valid contemporary (as in this thread), historic, cultural, and yes, even Biblical evidence and to keep the debate alive in this Church for another 150 years. Declaring it to be only a theological issue is to banish this issue to the eternal torment of human theological debate on what all that means. And that effectively buries it in a mountain of obfuscation and theological trivia and minutia. (That should be abundantly obvious right here on this forum, where theological agreement is a rare commodity, even on what theological resources and experts are sufficiently valid...) It will not bring about unity on this or any other issue. The simple fact that theology divides the body of Christ into thousands of denominational pieces should be evidence enough of the lack of value of putting this issue only in that box.

You need to think outside the box for once.

As I have said before, I am persuaded that there is no evidence, short of a universal theophany declaring it so, ( and even then I am sure some would not believe...) that will be acceptable to convince you or many of the opposers.

[karl]

Here's the reply I got from the Chinese Union Mission

Dear Doctor,

Thank you for your inquiry.

I am Pastor __________ working in Chinese Union Mission as the secreatry of Ministerial Association. I was born in China and grew up there...Let me answer your question by my limited knowledge.

Is true, there are many women pastors in mainland China (about one third of the ministers in other Christian body, even in our Adventist church there are 7-8 women pastor.) Quite a few are strong leaders in their area and pastoring a church with thousands of people;

No doubt there is serious shortage of pastors in China either for our church or for other churches too; For female pastor in China as far as I learn in big city they can have long maternity leave; in countryside they may work OT since they will take care everything inside and outside of family and church;

For an American citizen they can stay in China for one month (such as I myself and my wife) then he/she has to leave for a while (at least one day crossing the borderand let the immigration office put the stamp on your passport..) If he/she can get the multi entrance visa then he/she can using it for one/three years, otherwise every time will pay over one thousand Chinese currency for the visa.

If Chinese government learns that he/she is a missionary or pastor sometimes they reject your application sometimes ask him/her to sign a sheet avoiding to preaching in China, esp. for the westerner. We do not do this by some way.

I hope that I have answer your questions, if there is any other problem, please feel free to ask.

God bless!

[Tom Wetmore]

Quote:

Tom Wetmore: Is not the obvious success of her ministry sufficient evidence that God is pleased and is blessing her efforts accordingly?

Would you consider the success of Sun Yung Moon (leader of the Moonies) to be evidence of God's blessing on the owner of all those Rolls Royces?

How about the success of Joel Osteen? Jimmy Swaggert? Oral Roberts? Benny Hinn?

The success of the Frisbee is not necessarily evidence of God's blessing.

Why do you ask questions like that? Are you trying to insult our intelligence or your own?

How do you measure the success of your own pastor? Your local church? The conference? Church leadership? How do you measure the success of an evangelistic effort?

You do know, don't you, that the success of these women's ministry is just as I characterized it and as the article described it - bringing souls into the kingdom? You do know that we are not talking about material success, don't you? If we had a male pastor here in the US that started 380 new churches in one rural area of the country that now have a total of 20,000 members, would we not consider that a ministry success story? Would you compare that success to the ostentation of Sun Yung Moon or the commercial success of a toy?

Why so cynical?

[Tom Wetmore]

karl,

Thank-you for posting that reply from Pastor _______.

It sounds consistent with the eye witness report from Elder Paulsen's visit last year as described in the ANN report.

[karl]

Originally Posted By: karl

The success of the Frisbee is not necessarily evidence of God's blessing.

Why do you ask questions like that? Are you trying to insult our intelligence or your own?

Sorry. No intention to insult you. Just trying to make the point that it is not necessarily true that success is a guarantee of God's blessing. Lots of people have been successful without God's approval. Alexander the Great comes to mind. Attila the Hun. Nimrod.

I am not suggesting that any of these women pastors are evil. Just making the point that it does not necessarily follow that success is a sign of God's doing it.

[karl]

karl,

Thank-you for posting that reply from Pastor ______.

It sounds consistent with the eye witness report from Elder Paulsen's visit last year as described in the ANN report.

Did you pick up on the discrepancy from the AT article?

7-8 women pastors in China.

The article said women constituted more than half of all pastors in China.

Either they have VERY few pastors in all of China, or.....??

I sent Pastor_____ a follow-up email about this.

[Tom Wetmore]

Yes it isn't real clear what he means. I didn't read it as inconsistent with the AT article since that article makes no mention of the actual number of pastors. Nor does the the ANN news report to which it links.

I think that what he said is a bit ambiguous. I wasn't sure if he was talking about just his own church since he says "in our Adventist church" or is talking about something or somewhere else. If one understands his statement of "7-8" female pastors in all of mainland China and that is more than half of all the pastors, male and female, it would mean that there would be no more than 15 pastors serving nearly 400,000 members. That seems unlikely.

Hopefully he will clarify.

[John317]

Quote:

Tom Wetmore:That is simply illogical and makes no sense.

Are you suggesting that God blesses the efforts of those that do wrong and go against his will, even sin against God? That seems to be rather un-Biblical.

I'm saying it sometimes appears that God is blessing people when it is actually another power who's doing the "blessing." In this way, Satan gives people the impression that they must be pleasing God.

By the way, Tom, I'm not suggesting that God isn't blessing the work in China and the good work those women and men in our Adventist church are doing.

I'm saying that the mere fact that they are doing wonderful work there shouldn't be construed to mean God wants women to be the pastors or elders of our churches throughout the world. That's a decison the church can rightfully make only on the basis of Bible study and theology. The Bible remains the standard for doctrine and practice for us as a church.

Quote:

Tom Wetmore: Or are you suggesting that what may seem to only "appear" as a blessing may not be? That it is simply a charade, a facade put up to deceive? Or that the blessing may not be from God?

One proof of the truth of what I'm saying is the fact that the most "successful" and the biggest church in the world is the Roman Catholic Church. Numbers in and of themselves, therefore, are not necessarily important when it comes to determining whether God is blessing. It's the quality of the service to God that counts, not how big the church is. Those outward appearances don't mean to God what they mean to humans.

There are some openly gay pastors that have been very successful in their "ministry," but that doesn't mean it's God who's blessing their ministry or their work. Satan blesses too. Do you think God is blessing someone who's telling gays that God doesn't care if they have gay sex and that God blesses their homosexual unions?

Remember that both Ellen White and the Bible show that Satan is also bringing people into the church. The fact that someone is "blessed" while teaching false doctrine or doing something else that is opposed to Scripture is meaningless. People who teach others to transgress God's law appear to be "blessed" all the time. It doesn't mean their ministry is teaching truth or that it is God who is blessing them.

When did the Christian church begin to really grow? It was when the church began to compromise and adopt false doctrines. Was God blessing?

[karl]

Here is the reply from the Pastor at Chinese Union Mission

Dear Doctor:

What I meant 7-8 women pastors in our Adventists referring to the ordained women minister. It's true at least one half of the preachers esp. in countryside are women.

Because of 60-70% of the Chinese Christian ( estimated around 50--70 million) are female so instead of the culture environment actually they are demanded in ministerial work

The ratio between male and female also young and old in Chinese congregation is changing. The three "MANY" situation----many woman, many old people, many illiterate----is improved and getting better, in particular in cities.

China is an interesting and wonderful country, to learn it takes time and not very easy for outsiders. Praise the Lord we have some faithful brethren and sisters there. They need our pray and support also we can learn many things from them.

God Bless

Pastor___________

[Tom Wetmore]

Thanks. That does make more sense now.

[Tom Wetmore]

And Jesus said, ""He who is not against us is on our side."

And regarding the accusation that He was acting under the "blessing" of Satan, Jesus said "I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them. But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin."

He said this because they were saying, "He has an evil spirit."

One must be very cautious about attributing the source of any good thing as being from Satan. To say it is of Satan may insult and blaspheme the Holy Spirit that is the true source of the good thing. That is an unforgivable denial of God's workmanship and blessing - a rejection of the Holy Spirit of God.

[Tom Wetmore]

...I'm saying that the mere fact that they are doing wonderful work there shouldn't be construed to mean God wants women to be the pastors or elders of our churches throughout the world. That's a decison the church can rightfully make only on the basis of Bible study and theology. The Bible remains the standard for doctrine and practice for us as a church...

Your whole approach is that we must prove it to be right and acceptable strictly and only from a Biblical/theological perspective, a universal truth. If it is right, it should be right everywhere. If it is wrong, it should be wrong everywhere.

But you appear to be affirming the work of these ordained women that are in church leadership (headship if you will...) and doing all things pastoral in China while finding no support for it Biblically, at least according to all you have posted here. How can you endorse their wonderful work if you believe they are acting contrary to the will of God for women? Are you suggesting that circumstances in China may make it OK there, but that it may not be a OK in other parts of the world?

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: John317

...The issue of WO can therefore only be resolved theologically...

And there's the rub...

That is a point on which I have to disagree. I, and many others, do not believe that it is only, if even primarily or at all, a theological issue. To completely theologize this issue is just a convenient excuse to ignore, explain away and minimize a whole lot of valid contemporary (as in this thread), historic, cultural, and yes, even Biblical evidence and to keep the debate alive in this Church for another 150 years. Declaring it to be only a theological issue is to banish this issue to the eternal torment of human theological debate on what all that means. And that effectively buries it in a mountain of obfuscation and theological trivia and minutia. (That should be abundantly obvious right here on this forum, where theological agreement is a rare commodity, even on what theological resources and experts are sufficiently valid...) It will not bring about unity on this or any other issue. The simple fact that theology divides the body of Christ into thousands of denominational pieces should be evidence enough of the lack of value of putting this issue only in that box.

You need to think outside the box for once.

As I have said before, I am persuaded that there is no evidence, short of a universal theophany declaring it so, ( and even then I am sure some would not believe...) that will be acceptable to convince you or many of the opposers.

Excellent

[Tom Wetmore]

One thing we as Adventist Christians often emphasize is the testimony of a changed life. Humanly we cannot read and judge the heart. The only evidence of the working of the Holy Spirit of God in anyone else is to observe and listen. Their words and deeds are the only way we as humans may have any indication of what God has done. We understand and teach that there should to be some outward evidence of the inner reality. We take what we see as evidence we can affirm of a spiritual reality.

The call to the ministry is the same. We cannot know the call placed on the heart of another. We can only observe what they do and say. We can only judge the results of the calling. We have built our whole theology of the ordination of men to the ministry on that basis. When we hear a man say he feels the call to ministry, we wait to ordain him until his life, deeds and words show evidence of that calling. It is not that we doubt his mere indication of a felt call. We expect proof. And with that proof we do ordain them.

The very proof in all its detail and substance we expect of a man called to the ministry, we see countless times in women who claim to have the same call to ministry. But somewhere deep within the hearts of those who oppose women in ministry and/or WO, something more is expected. Time after time, their calling is doubted or denied or rejected, even when all their words, deeds and life give the identical evidence we require of men.

Why is that? What more do we expect or need as proof of a woman's call to the ministry? What does God need to do to convince our doubters that he can and does call women to ministry? He keeps quietly showing us the proof. What else do we need?

[Tom Wetmore]

While considering the work of these women in China a wonderful thought occurred to me. I firmly believe in a God that can and does use anything, good or bad, to serve his purposes and carry out his will and accomplish what he needs to be done. I have often said that He is the absolute master of turning the sows ear into a silk purse. He brings good from evil. He even turned death into life.

Some have the opinion here that what we see happening in our churches in China is the result of the Communist government manipulating and controlling it. They have even suggested that the government has put these women in the position of church leadership, that they are using them to further communist propaganda.

That's what they think.

But I believe it is God working a miracle once again. He is the one behind what we see happening. And if it is the government controlling the Church and putting those women in leadership of our Church, God is using the Communist government to spread the gospel. He simply says, "I can work with that too! I can use that for my purposes and to move my work forward in China."

And I think He is also using this unusual situation to give the doubters among us more proof that He can and does call women to ministry, even if he has to use the Godless Communist Chinese government to do it.

[Woody]

Good Questions. And yes ... God is in control.

[John317]

Quote:

John317:

This is from the wikipedia, and are very significant statements about what's going on in China with regard to the churches:

"Religious practices are still often tightly controlled by government authorities.

....China is ruled by the Communist Party of China (CPC) under a single-party system."

And in the news on April 29, 2010:

WASHINGTON – Saudi Arabia and China are among 13 countries a U.S. government panel named on Thursday as serious violators of religious freedom.

Now, today this is in the news, demonstrable proof of how the government in China controls the churches. You can be sure that the atheists/communists of China are in control of the Christian churches in China, including the SDA church, as this new item shows:

Source: http://shanghaiist.com/2010/05/01/jinan_7th_day_adventists_evicted_fr.php

ChinaAid: 7th Day Adventists in Jinan evicted from church

Jinan‘s 7th Day Adventist Church choir in happier times.

ChinaAid reports:

SHANDONG--In February of this year, the Huaiyin District Office for Ethnic and Religious Affairs of Jinan Municipality officially ordered the abolition of the Jinan Seventh-Day Adventist Church, forcing the church's landlord to terminate the rental agreement on the church's gathering site. This latest intrusion and government action against the 7th Day Adventist congregation on February 27 forced the 39-year-old church change locations again, a persistent struggle throughout the church's history. Some members of the congregation refuse to leave continue to gather at the site.

In a letter from the Jinan 7th Day Adventist Church to ChinaAid:

The Shizhong District Branch of Jinan Municipal Public Security Bureau found our landlord and told him to drive us out. The Huaiyin District Office for Ethnic and Religious Affairs has repeatedly exerted pressure on Zhangzhuang Brigade, and the brigade spoke with the landlord on many occasions, demanding that he terminate the rental agreement. We, the several hundred believers, will very soon face the situation of not having a place to gather together for worship. In spite of their advanced age and poor health, the heads of our church have, on many occasions, spoken with the agency in charge of this matter, and each time they were answered with pressure or crackdowns by law enforcement.

The status of the Seventh Day Adventist church in China, and its relationship with the Three-Self Patriotic Movement (TSPM) and the China Christian Council, which together manage the affairs of Chinese Protestants, is an interesting one. As denominationalism, seen as a Western import since the early days is frowned upon, Christians here do (may) not identify themselves as Anglicans, Methodists, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Baptists and so on, although one church may have a more liturgical style of worship than the other, and Christians can choose if they want to be baptised by immersion or sprinkling.

Nevertheless, Seventh Day Adventist (SDA) congregations (distinguished by their observation of Saturday as the Sabbath and the public day of worship) have been allowed to flourish, and the denomination boasts over 400,000 believers all over China. In many locations, they share premises with TSPM churches and in others, they have begun to build their own church buildings. The May 2009 visit by Adventist world church President Jan Paulsen marked the first visit by a top Adventist leader to China in decades. In his trip, Paulsen visited the Beiguan SDA church in Shenyang with nearly 3,000 members as well as the newly opened Dongting SDA church in Wuxi which seats 1,200.

In Shanghai, Seventh Day Adventists worship at the Moore Memorial Church on People's Square, as well as the Hudong Church in Yangpu's Wujiaochang area. The Hudong church, established in 1912, previously functioned as the headquarters of the Seventh Day Adventist movement in China.

[Tom Wetmore]

What you emphasize in this news report is as if you ignored what I just posted, and the final two paragraphs of the report which tend to confirm what I said.

Quote:

...Nevertheless, Seventh Day Adventist (SDA) congregations (distinguished by their observation of Saturday as the Sabbath and the public day of worship) have been allowed to flourish, and the denomination boasts over 400,000 believers all over China. In many locations, they share premises with TSPM churches and in others, they have begun to build their own church buildings. The May 2009 visit by Adventist world church President Jan Paulsen marked the first visit by a top Adventist leader to China in decades. In his trip, Paulsen visited the Beiguan SDA church in Shenyang with nearly 3,000 members as well as the newly opened Dongting SDA church in Wuxi which seats 1,200.

In Shanghai, Seventh Day Adventists worship at the Moore Memorial Church on People's Square, as well as the Hudong Church in Yangpu's Wujiaochang area. The Hudong church, established in 1912, previously functioned as the headquarters of the Seventh Day Adventist movement in China.

God blesses the opportunity facilitated by the godless communist government. God is in control, not the Chiness government. They just think they are. And that is the faith message of the Chinese believers. God's people in China know and understand this.

Is the glass half full or is it half empty? It is all a matter of perspective...

1 Kings 18:21

[Gregory Matthews]

John, in my opinion, you often go far beyond what the facts have demonstrated, and yet you call it proof.

[John317]

Quote:

Tom Wetmore: What you emphasize in this news report is as if you ignored what I just posted, and the final two paragraphs of the report which tend to confirm what I said.

The church in China is not free to organize as the church would usually be organized if it was free to do what it chooses instead of being under the domination of communists. As committed atheists, the communist party in China doesn't have the best interest of the church in mind. In fact, they would like to see the church completely abolished, but they know such a move would be very unpopular at a time when they're trying to show that they believe in freedom of religion.

Therefore, the situation in China is obviously not typical. It is extremely unusual, and therefore can't be viewed as the pattern for ALL the churches.

I agree that God is blessing and working to draw people to Him, despite the desires of the communists and atheists in China. God also blessed the work of Deborah during usual times and circumstances in the days of the Judges, but that didn't mean God wanted women to become the priests or that God had changed His plans in making men the leaders of His people or of His church.

Quote:

Tom Wetmore: God blesses the opportunity facilitated by the godless communist government. God is in control, not the Chiness government. They just think they are. And that is the faith message of the Chinese believers. God's people in China know and understand this.

Is the glass half full or is it half empty? It is all a matter of perspective...

1 Kings 18:21

Sure, God is blessing it; and in the ultimate sense, God is certainly in control; but again, that doesn't mean God wants the entire world church to copy what is going on in China under very unusual circumstances. God was also in control in communist USSR, but would you have wanted the whole church to copy what was going on there? If not, why point to our Chinese churches under an atheistic government as representative of what God wants to see in all of His churches throughout the world?

What you apparently don't seem to understand, Tom, is that unusual conditions call for unusual situations and decisions, but we shouldn't allow those unsual conditions to determine what the entire church should do when those extradordinary conditions don't prevail. So far the world church in General Conference session agrees with this, and doesn't see the unusual situation in China as a pattern for the rest of the SDA churches to follow. It's a wise approach.

[John317]

Quote:

Gregory Matthews: John, in my opinion, you often go far beyond what the facts have demonstrated, and yet you call it proof.

Maybe so. Let's talk about it. Can you give some examples?