Through the Bible: Genesis

[Nic Samojluk]

Ellen White clearly prayed to the Holy Spirit as well as to Jesus and to the Father.

[Nic Samojluk]

The Father and Christ do not personally dwell in us or with us.

[John317]

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John: When was it ever the official position of the SDA church that Ellen White was the standard?

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Nic Samojluk: For most of my life we had a double standard: an official one for dealing with other Christians and a pragmatic one when dealing among ourselves. We would tell the world that the Bible was our only standard for doctrine, but for all practical purposes the writing of Ellen While ruled our Adventist world.

You said earlier that "Ellen White as the standard is no longer the official position of the SDA church," and I'm simply pointing out that it NEVER was the official position of the church. What you might mean is that from you experience, there was a time when it seemed to be our official position. That may be true for you, but it never was my experience growing up SDA in Loma Linda.

I disagree with your characterization of Ellen White ruling our Adventist world, although it's true that many SDAs weren't (and still aren't) studying their Bible enough or obeying the Scriptures as we should. But it was never a question of Adventists giving too much attention to Ellen White. The truth is that as a church we need to study both the Bible and the writings of Ellen White more than we do, and we need also to put them into practice in our daily lives far better than we do.

[John317]

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John 3:17: Please consider a few quotes from Ellen White on this subject, and see if she is speaking of the angel Gabriel:

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Nic Samojluk: Ellen never specifically equated the Holy Spirit with the angel Gabriel. Does this prove anything?

The truth is that Ellen White never said anything supporting the idea that the Holy Spirit ever refers to the angel Gabriel.

Where do you find the strongest evidence that when she speaks of the Holy Ghost or the Holy Spirit, she means for us to understand she's talking about Gabriel or any other angel?

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Nic Samojluk: Can you clearly establish the identity of the expression the angel of the Lord as used in the Bible? Is it always an angel? Is it always equivalent to Michael? Is it always Jesus?

This is an entirely different subject. We're not talking about "the angel of the Lord." We're talking about the Holy Spirit-- specifically when Ellen White uses the words, "The Holy Spirit" or "The Holy Ghost."

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Nic Samojluk: Why is it that in several scriptural passages the identity of God’s angel seems to be equated with the Holy Spirit as I documented in previous postings? The story of Phillip the evangelist and the story of Gideon are good examples.

Notice your words, "seems to be." Even you evidently acknowledge that there is no certainty as to the identity of the angel being the Holy Spirit in Acts 8: 29 and 39.

The Greek shows that it isn't an angel, for it says, "The Spirit [Gk to pneuma] told Philip..." The Bible never uses the definite article with the noun pneuma to refer to an angel, because the rule Greek grammar shows that it is talking about a specific spirit, not just "a spirit."

Verse 39 even calls it pnuema kupiou [the Lord's Spirit]. I don't know of a single text in the Bible where an angel is called "the Spirit of the Lord" or "the Lord's Spirit." If you believe you have a clear example of one, please point it out.

Acts 8: 26 speaks of the angel plainly as angelos kurios [an angel of the Lord].

Compare this carefully with all the other places in the book of Acts which speak of angels and the Holy Spirit.

Be willing to change your mind if the evidence points in that direction. I am. If I see that I am wrong about something, it is no problem for me to change my mind or my ideas. Otherwise it makes it very hard for the Holy Spirit to guide and teach us.

Loo, for instance, at the references to the Holy Spirit or spirits in other parts of Acts 8.

Verse 7: "unclean" or "evil spirits" [Gk akatharta pneumata]. This is obviously talking about evil, fallen angels, or demons.

Verse 15: "the Holy Spirit" [Gk pneuma hagion] It says that Peter and John prayed that the people of Samaria might receive the Holy Spirit.

Verse 16: The NIV says "the Holy Spirit" had not fallen on any of them yet. They had only been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus.

Verse 17: "the Holy Spirit" [Gk pneuma hagion]. The people received the Holy Spirit.

Verse 18: Almost all ancient Greek manuscripts have "the Holy Spirit" [Gk to pneuma to hagion], but the editors of the Critical Text selected the reading of the Vaticanus and Sinaiaticus, "the Spirit" [Gk to pneuma].

Simon saw that the Holy Spirit -- or "the Spirit"-- was given at the laying on of the apostles' hands.

Verse 19: "the Holy Spirit" [Gk hagion pneuma]. Simon offers money to the apostles so that he too may be able to give people the Holy Spirit.

In verse 20, Peter calls "the Holy Spirit" "the gift of God" [Gk thn dorean tou theou].

Notice that the scene changes at verse 26, and we are told that "an angel of the Lord" [Gk angelos kuriou] spoke to Philip.

Verse 29: "The Spirit told Phillip" [Gk to pneuma eipento philippo]

Verse 39: "The Spirit of the Lord" [Gk pneuma kuriou]. The Spirit of the Lord suddently took Philip away.

In Acts 9, it is the Lord himself who speaks directly to Saul [Paul].

9: 31: " the Holy Spirit" [Gk tou hagiou pneumatos]. The church throughout Judea and other parts was strengthen and encouraged by the Holy Spirit.

Notice Acts 10: 3, 7.

Verse 3: Peter distincly saw "an angel of God" [Gk angelon tou theou].

Verse 7: "the angel who spoke to him" [Gk ho angelos ho lalon auto]

Notice that this time the writer speaks of "the angel," not "an angel." Significantly, this is because the writer is referring to a specific angel.

10: 22: "A holy angel" [Gk hagiou angelou]. "A holy angel told" Cornelius to havve Peter come to his house. [Notice that in v. 30, Cornelius desribes the angel as "a male in shining clothes."]

10: 44: "the Holy Spirit" [Gk to pneuma to hagion]. The Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message.

10: 47: "the Holy Spirit" [Gk to pneuma to hagion]. The Gentiles received the Holy Spirit.

I encourage you to compare every occurance of the the Holy Spirit and of the mention of angels in the NT.

WHO IS THIS REFERRING TO?

Please look at Acts 13: 2:

"The Holy Spirit [Gk to pneuma to hagion] said, 'Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them."

Is this an angel? Is an angel telling humans to set apart Barnabas and Saul for the angel for the work that the angel called them to do?

I believe this is proof that (1) the Holy Spirit is a person and (2) that the Holy Spirit is God. No angel of God would say what the Holy Spirit is recorded as having said in this verse.

Humans are not set apart for angels, and neither are humans called to their work by angels. Humans are set apart for God and for the work that God calls humans to do.

Nic, what are your thoughts in regard to these things?

[Nic Samojluk]

The above is true, of course, but Ellen White also states several times that God is the true Author of the Scriptures.

[Nic Samojluk]

They do not consider that the excellencies of the Scriptures will be continually unfolding their hidden treasures as precious jewels are discovered by digging for them.

[Nic Samojluk]

The Creator of all ideas may impress different minds with the same thought, but each may express it in a different way, yet without contradiction.

[Nic Samojluk]

"The Holy Scriptures are to be accepted as an authoritative, infallible revelation of His will." AG 198

[John317]

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John: 3: 17: To say that the Bible is not inerrant is the same as saying the Bible contains some errors.

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Nic Samojluk: Why do you try to deny what is evident from the actual text? We have discussed this already more than once and I cited several examples where the Bible does contain some errors. I also cited Ellen white as admitting that some Bible copyists have introduced errors into the Bible. This claim of yours makes no logical sense. Pretending that the white elephant is not in the room does not make it disappear! Making false claims about the Bible has a tendency to tempt honest people to reject Christianity.

Nic, please read the very next line, which I've enlarged and colored red.

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John 3: 17: But since it [the Bible] contains some errors does it mean we don't place our complete confidence in it as God's inspired word?

Please also answer the question, whether the fact that the Bible does contain some errors means you don't place your complete confidence in it as God's inspired word.

I myself do place my complete confidence in God's word.

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Nic Samojluk: There is a difference between inspiration, infallibility, and dictation. God did inspire holy men to record for posterity certain facts and experience, but he did not dictate the actual words and sentences with the exception of the Decalogue, and God did not dictate what we find in Scripture.

Nic, I've never said that God dicated the Bible.

[Nic Samojluk]

"The Spirit of God has made me..." Job 33: 4.

"You send forth your Spirit, they are created..." Ps. 104: 30.

Who is this Holy Spirit that was involved in creation?

"But they rebelled and grieved His Holy Spirit..." Is. 64: 10.

Are any of these verses referring to the angel Gabriel? If not, who is the Holy Spirit in these verses?

[Nic Samojluk]

None of the following verses refer to an angel of the Lord. As a matter of fact, one would have to do a great deal of alteration to the message given in many of those verses in order to substitute Holy Spirit with an angel of the Lord.

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Do not cast me from your presence or take your Holy Spirit from me. Psalm 51:9

Yet they rebelled and grieved his Holy Spirit. So he turned and became their enemy Isaiah 63:10

I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire. Mathew 3:11

David himself, speaking by the Holy Spirit, declared: "'The Lord said to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet."' Mark 12:36

Whenever you are arrested and brought to trial, do not worry beforehand about what to say. Just say whatever is given you at the time, for it is not you speaking, but the Holy Spirit. Mark 13:11

for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even from birth. Luke 1:15

His father Zechariah was filled with the Holy Spirit and prophesied. Luke 1:67

At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth… Luke 10:21

If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him! Luke 11:13

But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. John 14:26

In my former book, Theophilus, I wrote about all that Jesus began to do and to teach

until the day he was taken up to heaven, after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles he had chosen. Acts 1:1-2.

But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth. Acts 1:8.

All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them. Acts 2:4.

Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. Act 2:33

Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:38

Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them: "Rulers and elders of the people Acts 4:8.

You spoke by the Holy Spirit through the mouth of your servant, our father David: "'Why do the nations rage and the peoples plot in vain? Acts 4:25

After they prayed, the place where they were meeting was shaken. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God boldly. Acts 4:31

This proposal pleased the whole group. They chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Spirit… Acts 6:5

Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own… 1 Corinthians 6:19

Godly men and heavenly angels are instruments of the Holy Spirit; God’s spirit is actively working within their minds.

Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk

But when we go to the book of Daniel, we find his worried sick about the future of his people. He remained in said condition for 21 days because the Angel Gabriel was busy doing some lobbying in the courts of Persia. Then Gabriel came to his rescue and apologized for his delay and stated that there was nobody to assist him in this task except Michael. How do you explain the absence of the Holy Spirit and the fact that an angel is doing the Holy Spirit's work?

Angels do the Holy Spirit’s work because they are instruments of the HS.

In order to say that the Holy Spirit is an angel of the Lord and not the third person of the Godhead, one would have to make a great distortion to most biblical passages regarding the HS and ignore most of what EGW says about this topic.

FF

Read my latest response to John where I address this issue in a specific manner.

[John317]

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Nic Samojluk:

"By the word of the LORD were the heavens made, their starry host by the breath of his mouth." [Psalm 33:6]

God’s word = God’s breath = “ruach” in Hebrew was the instrument the Lord used in the creation referred to in Genesis. This text provides the best interpretation of Genesis 1:2. The Lord was speaking and his words were reverberating over the watery abyss. There is no need to assign to God’s breath—ruach—a separate identity and existence.

Nic, Please look at Acts 13: 2:

"The Holy Spirit [Gk to pneuma to hagion] said, 'Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them."

Notice a these points:

1) It's the Holy Spirit who speaks.

2) The Holy Spirit refers to Himself as "me" and "I."

3) The Holy Spirit wants Barnabas and Saul set apart for Him, thus proving the Holy Spirit has a will. (Compare Heb. 2: 4)

4) The Holy Spirit says "I called" Barnabas and Saul to their work.

5) The proves that the Holy Spirit considers Himself to be a person.

Is this an angel? Is an angel telling humans to set apart Barnabas and Saul for the angel for the work that the angel called them to do?

I believe this is proof that (1) the Holy Spirit is a person and (2) that the Holy Spirit is God. No angel of God would say what the Holy Spirit is recorded as having said in this verse.

Humans are not set apart for angels, and neither are humans called to their work by angels. Humans are set apart for God and for the work that God calls humans to do.

Your thoughts?

[Nic Samojluk]

You are doing something very silly by equating the human mind or human consciousness with God’s mind or consciousness.

[Nic Samojluk]

Quote:

Felix Florimon: In order to say that the Holy Spirit is an angel of the Lord and not the third person of the Godhead, one would have to make a great distortion to most biblical passages regarding the HS and ignore most of what EGW says about this topic.

I agree. One would have to resist and twist the obvious meaning of many sentences.

[Nic Samojluk]

Originally Posted By: John

Nic: In order for a single angel, say Gabriel or Lucifer, to be referred to under the title "THE Holy Spirit," it would mean that whatever angel is being referred is in some sense holier than other angels.

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Nic Samojluk: I do not see the need for such an assumption. You are trying to equate Holy with Holier, which would be improper. When I say Saint Peter, or Saint John, I am not implying that one saint is holier than another.

By using the definite article with a noun in the Greek language, the writer is identifying someone or something as "THE holy spirit."

The definite article is used for the purpose of identification or particularizing.

It is like the difference between "a house" and "the house." If I say I am going to THE house, that is quite different from saying I'm going to "a house." "The house" is a particular one whereas "a house" could be any house. Therefore when the Bible speaks of "the Holy Spirit," it is talking about a particular Holy Spirit.

The Bible often speaks of "holy Spirit" without the definite article, just as it does with the word "Lord" and even "Christ," because it has become a personal name rather than a title.

[John317]

Yes, I have heard of personification. They occur a lot in poetry, but they are easy to identify. I know about them very well because I majored in literature at Cal State U.

Are the following examples "personifications," in your judgment?

Acts 13: 2:

"The Holy Spirit [Gk to pneuma to hagion] said, 'Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them."

Notice these points:

1) It's the Holy Spirit who speaks.

2) The Holy Spirit refers to Himself as "me" and "I."

3) The Holy Spirit wants Barnabas and Saul set apart for Him, thus proving the Holy Spirit has a will.

4) The Holy Spirit says "I called" Barnabas and Saul to their work.

5) The proves that the Holy Spirit considers Himself to be a person, not a "personification."

Is this an angel? Is an angel telling humans to set apart Barnabas and Saul for the angel for the work that the angel called them to do?

I believe this is proof that (1) the Holy Spirit is a person and (2) that the Holy Spirit is God. No angel of God would say what the Holy Spirit is recorded as having said in this verse.

Humans are not set apart for angels, and neither are humans called to their work by angels. Humans are set apart for God and for the work that God calls humans to do.

Notice the Holy Spirit also has a will in 1 Cor. 12: 11 and Heb. 2: 4:

1 Cor. 12: 11--

These are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.

Heb. 2:4--

God also bore witness by signs and wonders and various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

Personification? Angel? "Breath"? Who is the Holy Spirit in these verses?

[Nic Samojluk]

You seemed to miss the main point Nic. Gabriel is not omni-present. And unable to dwell in every believer at once.

[Nic Samojluk]

Can you tell me any variants that change Bible doctrines?

[Nic Samojluk]

1) The events in Acts 19 occurred about 55 AD, whereas the book of Matthew was written between 58 to 68 AD; that is, Matthew 28: 19 was written after the events recorded in Acts 19.

[Nic Samojluk]

John 12:34

The people answered him, We have heard out of the law that Christ abideth for ever: and how sayest thou, The Son of man must be lifted up? who is this Son of man?

[Nic Samojluk]

Notice that Robert Young understands it to mean that Christ was reduced in status when He became a man. He doesn't mean that Christ was made less than the angels, as the writer of Hebrews gives it. Robert Young understands it to have the same significance as it has in the New Living Translation.

[Nic Samojluk]

Nic, all Seventh-day Adventists should know the elementary rule for the use of the word "eternal" in the Bible. The rule is that when it is used in reference to God, it means something different than when it is used in reference to mortal man. Do you believe this?

[Nic Samojluk]

But again I'm referring to the word "Godhead" in the New Testament and particularly in the writings of Ellen White because that is where we have her statements about the "eternal Godhead."

[Nic Samojluk]

But you appear to me to be placing the word of Eusebius, a mere, fallible historian-- and no prophet-- above both the Bible and the prophet Ellen White.

[Nic Samojluk]

Quote:

Eusebius (265 A.D. -- 339 A.D.) as proclaimed Bishop of Caesarea had access to the famed Library of Caesarea and thus references Matthew 28:19 from more ancient manuscripts housed therein than are available to us today. ...

"Shem-Tob, the man who possessed an ancient Hebrew Gospel of Matthew, was a Hebrew and his precious Book dates back to early time. Shem-Tob was not an adherent of Primitive Judaic-Christianity of Acts two, but was of Judaism. He was not overly friendly to Judaic or Jewish-Christianity, i.e., of Acts two. Fortunately, he did not translate this Hebrew Book of Matthew from Latin, the Latin Vulgate, Byzantine Greek, or any other Greek edition of the Gospel of Matthew. His source was from a true copy of Matthew. It was independent of Roman Catholic source. He received it solely from previous Jewish scribes. From that premise we may freely receive it as pure text and authentic." (Dr. Marvin Arnold, The BIBLE, TRINITY, AND MATTHEW 28:19, p.70)

"Shem-Tob’s Hebrew Book of Matthew is the most accurate text of the First Gospel now existing. It underwent a different process of transmission than the Greek, since it was preserved by the Jews, and thus independent from the Catholic Community." (George Howard, Hebrew Gospel of Matthew, Mercer Univ. Press, Georgia, 1995, p.190)

Further, Dr. Arnold writes, The Hebrew Gospel of Matthew does not have the Catholic fabricated titles and phrases: "of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." The Hebrew Book of Matthew is free from Roman Catholic bias, slants, and Trinitarian interpolations. (George Howard, op.cit. p. 234).

"In summary, Eusebius, a noted historian, inherited from Pamphilus a famous library begun by Origen that could have easily contained the original Hebrew text of Matthew, or if not, a copy of the original Matthew text. Jerome (A.D. 331-A.D. 420) supports this in the following statement recorded in the citation below:"

• Catalogue of Ecclesiastical Writers - "Matthew, who is also Levi … composed a Gospel … in the Hebrew language and characters… Furthermore, the Hebrew itself is preserved to this day in the library at Caesarea which the martyr Pamphilus so diligently collected."

(This library in Caesarea was said to have been destroyed by fire.)

The Proof of the Gospel, by Eusebius as edited by W.J. Ferrar - Note 3 of Book 3, ch.5, p. 137: That Matthew "wrote in Hebrew the Gospel that bears his name" is stated by Eusebius in the Ecclesiastical History of Eusebius, iii. 24. In The Proof of the Gospel, Book 3, ch.7, p. 157, he cited that only one phrase, "in my name" was after, "Go forth, and make disciples of all the nations."

Knupfer, Editor of the Christadelphian Monatshefte - Eusebius among his many other writings compiled a collection of the corrupted texts of the Holy Scriptures, and "the most serious of all the falsifications denounced by him, is without doubt the traditional reading of Matthew 28:19."

Conybeare -- I have, after a moderate search in these works of Eusebius, found eighteen citations of Matthew 28:19, and always in the following form: "Go ye and make disciples of all the nations in my name, teaching them to observe all things, whatsoever I commanded you."

Therefore, we have confirmation that Shem-Tob, F.C. Conybeare, and Eusebius of Caesarea, all verified that Matthew 28:19 did not end as we see it in our KJV. More than likely, it ended with Jesus’ wording more like this: "Go, make disciples of all the nations in My Name, teaching them to keep all things which I have commanded you."

Why shouldn’t we quote Matthew 28:19 from the earliest quotations and renditions available and therefore closer to the actual words of our Lord? Truth versus Catholicism tampering -- It is your choice. Could this be a part of the Everlasting Gospel revealed in the last days? (Revelation 14:6 -- "And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people").

http://www.zimbio.com/Historical+Jesus/articles/Omw78B7BPsv/Matthew+28+19+Eusebius+Shem+Tob

See my next posting!