Who died on the cross - Jesus as man or Jesus as God? ? ?

[Overaged]

Wow, such a long long post and I have no idea what you just said.

[fccool]

LOL.

Even simpler:

1) God does not accept human sacrifices

2) Humanity murdered Christ... and it was a sacrificial rite, but rather a violent rejection. Whenever a sacrifice is made, you have to conciser who makes it. It was obviously Christ making it on behalf of humanity, but the bigger picture is that God was making the sacrifice of suffering our sins. It was not a literal blood sacrifice as modern doctrine of atonement teaches. God does not accept human sacrifices.

3) If we interpret Christ's death as a sin offering, then we have to contend that God got the payment. Therefore it's not quite forgiveness of sins. It's merely Christ bailing us out. Our sins were not forgiven... these were merely paid for.

4) The better way of presenting the doctrine of atonement is by digging down to etymology... atone - means to reconcile, not to pay for. Reconciliation begins by sinner acknowledging sin (trespassing of the law), and makes a decision of turning away from it. God does not remember the sins as per Ezekiel 18, and chooses to swallow up the penalty, as bank would swallow up the unpaid debt.

5) Christ did not merely come to die and atone for our sins. He came to live a perfect life, and to obey the law as an example for Godly life that was originally intended for humans, and which can be attained through repentance and living by the Spirit.

[John317]

Quote:

abelisle: If this question has been asked before and dealt with, I apologize. But I have been asked this question by unbelievers: "How can God die?"

God didn't die. Jesus is (and was) both God and man. He was God before becoming a man, but when he became a man, he didn't cease to be God.

Christ's humanity died. It's absolutely impossible for Deity to die. By definition, God is immortal and therefore not subject to death.

One of the main reasons Christ became a man was in order to die. If anyone was born to die, it was the baby Jesus. Why was it? Because there was no other way to save humanity. You can be sure that if there was any other way God could save us apart from the death of His beloved Son, God would have done it.

Not a popular message but it's biblical.

See Phil. 2: 5-11.

[John317]

Quote:

teresaq(sda): can man kill God?

Absolutely not, but he can certainly kill the God-Man, and we did.

[doug yowell]

John 10:17,18

[Overaged]

All this great hub bub for this topic!

These are the words of Jesus:

Joh 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

Joh 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

To me; it is enough that Jesus died for me. I don't worry about the rest. I can just imagine arguing about this to someone I wanted to "witness" to.

[Yong T Tay]

Quote:

teresaq(sda): can man kill God?

Quote John317

"Absolutely not, but he can certainly kill the God-Man, and we did."

Jesus was a God-Man person. When died on the cross, His whole God-Man person died.

The reason God-Man person can die was that Jesus had set aside His Sovereignty, when He was born of a woman, born under the law.

Overaged had put this nicely, when he quote John 10: 17-18

"These are the words of Jesus:

Joh 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

Joh 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father."

Have a wonderful Sabbath to all

Yongttay

[John317]

Quote:

Overaged: These are the words of Jesus:

Joh 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

Joh 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

Yes, the above words show that the deity of Christ did not die. Otherwise Jesus could not have raised Himself, as He indicates by the words,"I have power to take [up my life] again." All three Persons of the Godhead resurrected Christ.

It's sometimes good to study and talk about things that we may not witness about to non-SDAs or to new Christians.

[John317]

[quote name="yongttay:

teresaq(sda): can man kill God?

Quote:

John317:

Absolutely not, but he can certainly kill the God-Man, and we did.

Jesus Christ did die, yes, but remember that while on earth, Christ was both God and man. His divine nature could not die because God is immortal-- not subject to death. Only His human nature died on the cross. Similarly, God was not tempted by Satan in the wilderness, nor was God hungry or thirsty. God cannot be tempted by sin, nor does God need food or water.

Quote:

yongttay: The reason God-Man person can die was that Jesus had set aside His Sovereigty, when He was born of a woman, born under the law.

Is it your understanding that Jesus Christ ceased to be God while on the earth?

It is true that Christ did not use His divine powers as God while on earth, but does that mean Jesus was not God during that time? I ask this because there are some who believe that between his birth and his resurrection, Jesus Christ was no more than a human being. Jehovah's Witnesses, for instance, believe that Jesus was only a perfect human during that time.

Quote:

yongttay: Overaged had put this nicely, when he quote John 10: 17-18

"These are the words of Jesus:

Joh 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

Joh 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father."

Yes, great verses. Notice that Jesus Christ said that He would raise Himself from death: "I have power to take [up my life] again." He could do this only because his divine nature raised his dead body to life. As I said on another post, all three Persons of the Godhead were involved in the resurrection of Christ.

Your thoughts?

[Overaged]

It's sometimes good to study and talk about things that we may not witness about to non-SDAs or to new Christians.

I agree.

[Yong T Tay]

Quote:

"Overaged: These are the words of Jesus:

Joh 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

Joh 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father."

John317 Quote:

"Yes, the above words show that the deity of Christ did not die. Otherwise Jesus could not have raised Himself, as He indicates by the words,"I have power to take [up my life] again."

John317,

You forgot to mention "I have power to (lay my life)down," To say that the deity of Christ did not die is to limit the power of God.

With God all things are possible. The fact that Jesus could have raised Himself, as He indicates by the words,"I have power to take [up my life] again." means that God can walk in and walk out of death as He please. Death was not a problem for Him.

Yongttay

[Yong T Tay]

Quote:

"yongttay: The reason God-Man person can die was that Jesus had set aside His Sovereignty, when He was born of a woman, born under the law."

Quote John317:

"Is it your understanding that Jesus Christ ceased to be God while on the earth?"

Off course not. Jesus was a God-Man person while on earth. He was not two persons (one as God and one as man). When His God-Man Person died, He died as one entity person, otherwise if He died only as man, He was only partially dead. He did not really died.

Yongttay

[Robert]

To me; it is enough that Jesus died for me. I don't worry about the rest. I can just imagine arguing about this to someone I wanted to "witness" to.

Read!

[Robert]

Quote:

teresaq(sda): can man kill God?

Absolutely not, but he can certainly kill the God-Man, and we did.

"Humanity died, Deity did not sink and die" [EGW]

[Robert]

Christ's humanity died

It wasn't his humanity...it was ours. Christ remained Himself while assuming our fallen lives....

Read

Here are some highlights:

The Hebrew makes this stronger still, for the literal translation is: "He that hangeth on a tree is the curse of God." And this is exactly the strength of the fact respecting Christ, for it is written that He was "made a curse." Thus, when He was made under the law, He was made all that it means to be under the law. He was made guilty; He was made condemned; He was made a curse.

But bear in mind forever that all this He "was made." He was none of this of Himself, of native fault, but all of it he "was made." And He was made it all for us: for us who are under the law; for us who are under condemnation because of transgression of the law; for us who are under the curse because of swearing and lying and killing and stealing and committing adultery and all the other infractions of the roll of God's law that goeth with us and that remaineth in our house.

[Overaged]

Read!

Why?

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Read!

Why?

Then don't, but if you insist on telling folks Jesus died so they can go to heaven you'll be telling a lie.

Jesus isn't the sinner. Jesus never sinned. Jesus is God - He cannot sin. How then can the sinless Jesus be condemned under a law He never sinned against? We are the sinners...the law demands our death, not the death of an innocent, sinless man.

[Overaged]

quote=Overaged]quote=Robert]

Read! /quote]Why? /quote]

Then don't, but if you insist on telling folks Jesus died so they can go to heaven you'll be telling a lie.

Jesus isn't the sinner. Jesus never sinned. Jesus is God - He cannot sin. How then can the sinless Jesus be condemned under a law He never sinned against? We are the sinners...the law demands our death, not the death of an innocent, sinless man.

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Christ was treated as we deserve, that we might be treated as He deserves. He was condemned for our sins, in which He had no share, that we might be justified by His righteousness, in which we had no share. He suffered the death which was ours, that we might receive the life which was His. "With His stripes we are healed." {DA 25.2}

[Robert]

He was condemned for our sins, in which He had no share

You can't condemn an innocent man. That would be unjust!

If I go in and wipe out a bunch of folks in a restaurant with a automatic rifle I've committed the sin of murder/hate. Let's say you are my lawyer and my friend. You feel bad for me and since you are dying of cancer anyway you go to judge and say, "I'll die instead and you can let Robert go!" What will the judge do? He'll do this:

and then he'll

laugh his butt off....

Why?

No law...even God's law...will condemn the innocent and let the guilty go....No law!

[Robert]

2 Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Note the verb "made" in the above quote. Jesus, as God, was made sin, who personally as God knew no sin. Jesus, as God, joined Himself to our fallen humanity through the incarnation. He never ceased to be who He is by Divine right, i.e., the Son of God.

Again, Jones: "...Bear in mind forever that all this He "was made." He was none of this of Himself, of native fault, but all of it he "was made."

So at the incarnation God mysteriously blended the Divinity of Christ with our fallen humanity in the womb of Mary. The humanity in Mary's womb belongs to our fallen lives. In fact all of us share one life - the fallen life of Adam. We are bone of his bones, flesh of his flesh. We are his life multiplied a billion times over through procreation.

Jesus, as God, while remaining Himself (God) was "made" what He was not by Divine right. He was made sin. What does that mean?

It means that for thirty something years Christ, as the son of humanity, was made sin...made condemned. How? Didn't Jesus live a perfect life in our fallen humanity? Yes. Then how was He made sin?

He was made sin because He became what by divine right He wasn't. Our humanity is condemned not because of sins, but because of sin (singular). We sin because we are conceived in iniquity. What does that mean? It means we are born bent-to-self and since our minds and natures are in complete agreement we outwardly produce sins (plural).

Jesus, as the son of man, never sinned outwardly because His assumed humanity's mind was made spiritually alive the moment of conception. He was born as we are born again. He was born with a mind at odds with our fallen human nature.

For thirty something years Jesus as the son of man said "no" to our bent-to-self (iniquity). He never sinned even by a thought. Hence He was without sin. But because He assumed our life under the curse that life (our lives from Adam that all of us share) had to die. Hence when His assumed humanity died, we died. Paul states that!!! When one died, all died. We died to the law in the body of Christ.

Ellen White:

By His obedience to all the commandments of God, Christ wrought out a redemption for man. This was not done by going out of Himself to another, but by taking humanity into Himself. Thus Christ gave to humanity an existence out of Himself. To bring humanity into Christ, to bring the fallen race into oneness with divinity, is the work of redemption. Christ took human nature that men might be one with Him as He is one with the Father, that God may love man as He loves His only-begotten Son, that men may be partakers of the divine nature, and be complete in Him (RH April 5, 1906).

[Robert]

Was the human nature of the Son of Mary [which is sinful] changed into the divine nature of the Son of God [which is sinless]? No; the two natures were mysteriously blended in one person—the man Christ Jesus. In Him dwelt all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. When Christ was crucified, it was His human nature that died. Deity did not sink and die; that would have been impossible. Christ, the sinless One, will save every son and daughter of Adam who accepts the salvation proffered them, consenting to become the children of God. The Saviour has purchased the fallen race with His own blood.

[John317]

Quote:

yongttay:

John317:

Yes, the above words show that the deity of Christ did not die. Otherwise Jesus could not have raised Himself, as He indicates by the words,"I have power to take [up my life] again.

Quote:

yongttay: You forgot to mention "I have power to (lay my life)down,"

What life was "laid down"? I understand the Bible to teach that Christ was both human and divine. I agree that He laid down His humanity, but did Christ lay down His divine nature?

Did Satan succeed in getting humans to kill the everlasting, living God?

Quote:

yongttay: To say that the deity of Christ did not die is to limit the power of God. With God all things are possible.

With God all things are possible that God is capable of doing. But is God capable of doing everything? Clearly not. For instance, God is not capable of willing Himself into non-existence.

Is it possible for God to lie? To do do wickedness? Surely not. In fact, the Bible says God cannot lie.

God is immortal. Immortal means "not subject to death."

Look closely at Col. 1: 17 and 2: 9. Also Heb. 1: 3.

1: 17 says that the deity of Jesus Christ was continously upholding the universe even while on this earth.

2: 9 says that in Christ's human body is continuously living all the fullness of God. (Think of it: ALL THE FULLNESS of God-- of Deity-- lives in Christ. That means the Father has never been more fully God than Christ was the whole time He was on earth, including when he was a baby and on the cross and in the tomb.)

Heb. 1: 3 says that Christ has continuously been the radiance of the Father's glory, and the exact copy of the Father's being, continuously sustaining all things [the whole universe] by Christ's powerful word.

None of these verses give us reason to believe that the Deity in Christ stopped upholding the universe-- ever.

What would happen to the universe if the One keeping it together died even for a day, let alone 3 days?

Quote:

yongttay: The fact that Jesus could have raised Himself, as He indicates by the words,"I have power to take [up my life] again." means that God can walk in and walk out of death as He please. Death was not a problem for Him.

What is death? Isn't death non-existence? Or do you believe death is another form of life?

I ask this because if death is non-existence, it would be impossible for God to be non-existent and at the same time be upholding the universe or to be capable of bringing Himself back from non-existence. Why? Because non-existence is not-Being. If God has no Being, He has no will.

Let me know if this makes sense to you or if you believe I am teaching something contrary to the Bible.

Can you explain what you mean by "walk in and out of death"?

[Overaged]

quote]yongttay:

John317:

Yes, the above words show that the deity of Christ did not die. Otherwise Jesus could not have raised Himself, as He indicates by the words,"I have power to take [up my life] again./quote]

quote] yongttay: You forgot to mention "I have power to (lay my life)down," /quote]

What life was "laid down"? Did Satan succeed in getting humans to kill God?

Satan did not sacrifice Jesus.

[John317]

Quote:

JOHN3:17:

Yes, the above words show that the deity of Christ did not die. Otherwise Jesus could not have raised Himself, as He indicates by the words,"I have power to take [up my life] again.

Quote:

yongttay: You forgot to mention "I have power to (lay my life)down,"

Quote:

JOHN3:17: What life was "laid down"? Did Satan succeed in getting humans to kill God?

Quote:

Overaged: Satan did not sacrifice Jesus.

Amen!

You are right. But Satan did inspire humans to kill Jesus Christ, and this they definitely succeeding in accomplishing.

Peter was inspired to say, "Jesus was given to you, and you killed him. With the help of evil men, you nailed him to a cross. But God knew all this would happen. This was God's plan which he had made long ago." Acts 2: 23 (NCV) Compare Acts 3: 17, 18.

Notice Peter said they had killed Jesus, but neither he nor any other writer of Scripture says that anyone killed God. That's an unutterable impossibility, since God is eternal and immortal by nature.

[teresaq]

All this great hub bub for this topic!

These are the words of Jesus:

Joh 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

Joh 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

To me; it is enough that Jesus died for me. I don't worry about the rest. I can just imagine arguing about this to someone I wanted to "witness" to.

i would have agreed in the past, but it seems to me im "learning" something, and perhaps it is quite important...

the only way Christ could conquer death-resurrect Himself-was to die....

His death is important for several reasons but im thinking not so much as our substitute...or so that we dont have to die. i think His resurrection is what keeps us from dying eternally...

if im not making much sense my apologies...they are forming thoughts and i dont quite have it down...