Who died on the cross - Jesus as man or Jesus as God? ? ?

[Overaged]

quote]Overaged: Satan did not sacrifice Jesus./quote]

Amen!

You are right. But Satan did inspire humans to kill Jesus Christ, and this they definitely succeeding in accomplishing.

According to my reading of the Bible; they would not have been able to do that without Jesus' help.

[Overaged]

quote=Overaged]All this great hub bub for this topic!

These are the words of Jesus:

Joh 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

Joh 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

To me; it is enough that Jesus died for me. I don't worry about the rest. I can just imagine arguing about this to someone I wanted to "witness" to.

i would have agreed in the past, but it seems to me im "learning" something, and perhaps it is quite important...

the only way Christ could conquer death-resurrect Himself-was to die....

His death is important for several reasons but im thinking not so much as our substitute...or so that we dont have to die. i think His resurrection is what keeps us from dying eternally...

if im not making much sense my apologies...they are forming thoughts and i dont quite have it down...

[John317]

Quote:

John317: Christ's humanity died

Quote:

ROBERT: It wasn't his humanity...it was ours. Christ remained Himself while assuming our fallen lives....

Was that Christ's body in the tomb? The Bible says it was. It says they took Christ's body down from the cross and wrapped it in linen. (Matt. 29: 59, 60)

Were those Christ's hand that were nailed to the cross? The Bible says it was. (Luke 23: 33; John 20: 27)

Did Jesus call them "My hands" or "your hands"? He said, "Look at my hands." John 20: 27.

My hands were not nailed to the cross and my body did not lie in the tomb for three days. That was the Lord's body. "Christ died for us" (Rom. 5:6; cf. Romans 6: 4-8).

The Bible clearly states that the Word, the pre-existent Christ, "became flesh," or "became a human being." John 1: 14. When that happened, Christ did not cease to be God. He was both human and God and still is and always will be.

But you are right that the Word did not become a different person. The eternal Word of God assumed our flesh, the same kind of flesh that his ancestors Adam, Abraham, and David, and his mother Mary, had.

I understand what you are saying, Robert, but your insistence on expressing it as you do (or rather as Jack Sequiera does) leads to confusion, because it appears to contradict the plain language of Scripture.

Yes, the Christ did take on or assume our human nature, but it is now His human nature. He will forever be a human being-- glorified, yes, but truly human AND God. The Bible still refers to Him as "male," and when He returns in glory for His church, He will come as a man, the God-man. We don't want to make it appear that Jesus is someone or something other than what He is: our elder brother.

[teresaq]

your last sentence caught me off-guard, tho i can certainly identify since dealing with certain posters...lol...but it is encouragement to continue to seek the Lords gentleness.

[Robert]

My hands were not nailed to the cross and my body did not lie in the tomb for three days. That was the Lord's body. "Christ died for us" (Rom. 5:6; cf. Romans 6: 4-8).

Right, your humanity was crucified in the body of Christ, not just your hands....

2 Corinthians 5:14 NKJ For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died...See also Rom 6:6/7:4

Heb 10:5 Therefore, when He [Jesus as God] came into the world, He said: "Sacrifice and offering You [God the Father] did not desire, But a body You have prepared for Me.

Before the incarnation Christ was God. After the incarnation Jesus was still God, but now in our human body. He assumed it to qualify Himself to be our legal substitute. Just as all men were "in Adam" when he fell, so all men were "in Christ" in His holy history.

Christ was "made" sin....He took upon His sinless Deity our sinful humanity. That's not me saying this, it's EGW.

He became sin in the sense that He assumed our humanity under the curse...a humanity that can never enter heaven.

1 Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood [our fallen humanity] cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed....

The humanity that Christ, as God, assumed at the incarnation is not part of Him now. He left our old life in grave. At the resurrection God raised Christ will glorified humanity free from iniquity. He raised this humanity immortal and without gender.

Col 1:13 For He [God the Father] rescued us from the domain of darkness [this world under Satan's rule], and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

Notice that "in Christ" God sees not His humanity glorified, but ours. What does Paul say? "He [God the Father]...transferred us to the kingdom". Hence God " raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus...."

Clearly we will not procreate in heaven. We will be like the angels in this respect. We will have bodies unlike what we have here. Spiritual bodies that can thought transport...bodies that can walk through walls as Christ did AFTER the resurrection.

Conclusion: What Christ, as God, assumed at the incarnation is not the same humanity He is now linked to for eternity. This humanity is, as I said, gender free. It is not limited to physical time & space. It is sinless...it is supernatural.

[Yong T Tay]

John317,

This is in response to your attached posting at the end of this message:

Yongttay.

The Lord God Almighty is absolute sovereign God over all things whatsoever. He created the heavens and the earth: everything whatsoever that exists. He has power over all things. He gives whatever He chooses to whomever He pleases. Nothing exists or occurs without His permission.

"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."

(Genesis 1:1 KJV)

"All things were made by him; and without him was not

anything made that was made." (John 1:3 KJV)

"Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power:

for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are

and were created." (Revelation 4:11 KJV)

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and

create evil: I the Lord do all these things." (Isaiah 45:7

KJV)

Quote John317:

"What life was "laid down"? I understand the Bible to teach that Christ was both human and divine. I agree that He laid down His humanity, but did Christ lay down His divine nature?"

Human and Divine natures are not persons(not beings), they are just attributions. Jesus was a God-man person with Divine and human natures intertwined together. The two natures became one, when "The Word was made flesh". They can not be separated, they lived as one and died as one. It was the life of Jesus, the God-man person with Divine and human natures intertwined together, that was "laid down" or died. It is not logical to say that human nature died and Divine nature did not die in this case because they were intertwined together. Either the two intertwined natures died together or they both did not die.

Quote John317:

"Did Satan succeed in getting humans to kill the everlasting, living God?"

God allowed Satan to kill Jesus. Had Jesus not the power as He said: "I have power to (lay my life)down". Satan could not have succeed in getting humans to kill Him, the everlasting, living God.

Quote John317:

"With God all things are possible that God is capable of doing. But is God capable of doing everything? Clearly not. For instance, God is not capable of willing Himself into non-existence."

Again, you are limiting the power of God. God is almighty, there is nothing impossible for Him. All things (be they good or evil) are possible for Him.

Quote John317:

"Is it possible for God to lie? To do do wickedness? Surely not. In fact, the Bible says God cannot lie."

Yes, God can lie and God can do wickedness, if He wanted to, and if it was for His Honour and Glory. Otherwise, there would be somethings God can not do and that would mean God is not almighty and sovereign.

Quote John317:

"God is immortal. Immortal means "not subject to death."

Look closely at Col. 1: 17 and 2: 9. Also Heb. 1: 3.

1: 17 says that the deity of Jesus Christ was continously upholding the universe even while on this earth.

2: 9 says that in Christ's human body is continuously living all the fullness of God. (Think of it: ALL THE FULLNESS of God-- of Deity-- lives in Christ. That means the Father has never been more fully God than Christ was the whole time He was on earth, including when he was a baby and on the cross and in the tomb.)

Heb. 1: 3 says that Christ has continuously been the radiance of the Father's glory, and the exact copy of the Father's being, continuously sustaining all things [the whole universe] by Christ's powerful word.

None of these verses give us reason to believe that the Deity in Christ stopped upholding the universe-- ever.

What would happen to the universe if the One keeping it together died even for a day, let alone 3 days?"

John 11:25-26 says "I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in Me, though he were dead, yet shall he live. And whosoever liveth and believeth in Me shall never die."

You see If you are dead and later you are resurrected, you are as if you had never die. You just wake up from you sleep. So when the Bible says "God can not die", it mean that God can always resurrect Himself from dead. That was exactly what Jesus did at His resurrection.

Quote John317:

"What is death? Isn't death non-existence? Or do you believe death is another form of life?

Death is the opposite of living. Death is not living in anywhere. Death has nothing to do with non-existence. A piece of rock is not living meaning it is dead, but it has existence. Both living and death is a state or condition of a person. When a living person died, he is no longer alive. When a dead person is resurrected, he is no longer dead.

Quote John317:

"I ask this because if death is non-existence, it would be impossible for God to be non-existent and at the same time be upholding the universe or to be capable of bringing Himself back from non-existence. Why? Because non-existence is not-Being. If God has no Being, He has no will."

Death is a state of a person, it is not non-existence. God is Almighty and Sovereign. There is nothing impossible for God to do, both good and evil. God can do anything (including dying and evil) as He please to His Honor and His Glory. Isaiah 45:7 'I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.' If God cannot die or create evils, then He is not almighty and sovereign, there is something impossible for Him to do and He cannot do as He please.

Quote John317:

"Let me know if this makes sense to you or if you believe I am teaching something contrary to the Bible."

As Christian, we all have some knowledge about the Bible, but our knowledge is not complete, and we do make mistakes. It is not necessary to know all the truths in order to have salvation. But the more truths we have, the more confidence we have in God. To me: to believe, to accept and to trust the gift of God in Jesus Christ is enough for my salvation. God had given me the assurance of salvation through the Birth, the Life, the Death and the Resurrection of Jesus Christ. All other things are not that important.

Quote John317:

"Can you explain what you mean by "walk in and out of death"?"

"Walk in and out of death" refer to John 10:18

Walk in of death "I have power to (lay my life)down," Walk out of death "I have power to take [up my life] again."

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John317 posting:

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Quote:

yongttay:

John317:

Yes, the above words show that the deity of Christ did not die. Otherwise Jesus could not have raised Himself, as He indicates by the words,"I have power to take [up my life] again.

Quote:

yongttay: You forgot to mention "I have power to (lay my life)down,"

What life was "laid down"? I understand the Bible to teach that Christ was both human and divine. I agree that He laid down His humanity, but did Christ lay down His divine nature?

Did Satan succeed in getting humans to kill the everlasting, living God?

Quote:

yongttay: To say that the deity of Christ did not die is to limit the power of God. With God all things are possible.

With God all things are possible that God is capable of doing. But is God capable of doing everything? Clearly not. For instance, God is not capable of willing Himself into non-existence.

Is it possible for God to lie? To do do wickedness? Surely not. In fact, the Bible says God cannot lie.

God is immortal. Immortal means "not subject to death."

Look closely at Col. 1: 17 and 2: 9. Also Heb. 1: 3.

1: 17 says that the deity of Jesus Christ was continously upholding the universe even while on this earth.

2: 9 says that in Christ's human body is continuously living all the fullness of God. (Think of it: ALL THE FULLNESS of God-- of Deity-- lives in Christ. That means the Father has never been more fully God than Christ was the whole time He was on earth, including when he was a baby and on the cross and in the tomb.)

Heb. 1: 3 says that Christ has continuously been the radiance of the Father's glory, and the exact copy of the Father's being, continuously sustaining all things [the whole universe] by Christ's powerful word.

None of these verses give us reason to believe that the Deity in Christ stopped upholding the universe-- ever.

What would happen to the universe if the One keeping it together died even for a day, let alone 3 days?

Quote:

yongttay: The fact that Jesus could have raised Himself, as He indicates by the words,"I have power to take [up my life] again." means that God can walk in and walk out of death as He please. Death was not a problem for Him.

What is death? Isn't death non-existence? Or do you believe death is another form of life?

I ask this because if death is non-existence, it would be impossible for God to be non-existent and at the same time be upholding the universe or to be capable of bringing Himself back from non-existence. Why? Because non-existence is not-Being. If God has no Being, He has no will.

Let me know if this makes sense to you or if you believe I am teaching something contrary to the Bible.

Can you explain what you mean by "walk in and out of death"?

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