Heretic.

[Kevin H]

So Herhard Hasel and Bill Shea are not deep theologians by your judgement?

Or Stephen Bohr..

Of course I'm not saying that. I'm just saying that it would be good if the church could at least catch up to them. Too many graduate from the seminary, having studied with these men, or from generations before people like Lynn Harper Wood, but they get busy and turn to the ready made stuff out there and end up rehashing the traditions.

For example, I have spoken to a few old ministers who studied with Lynn Harper Wood. They learned about hell fire from him, liked what he said about hell fire, but did not feel they knew t well enough to present it when they became pastors, so just taught the old traditions. Lynn Wood had been teaching the truth about hell fire since the 1920s, and has been dead since something like 1976. Yet what he taught is still not that well known outside of accademia.

Of course the ATS which Hasel was a part of tended to be a bit overly conservative (although Hasel is a mystery as to whether he was a conservative pretending to be a liberal when working on his doctorate, or if he was a liberal pretending to be a conservative because he knew that he'd get farther in the church as a conservative, or even if he was a moderate, as he was close friends with some controversial moderates, but who was a bit more liberal in graduate school to not rock the boat there, and wanting to try to reach the conservaties in the church with at least a little bit deeper Bible study than they were use to, but knew to win their trust he needed to be more conservative, however he was also known to have voiced the belief that Lynn Wood was too liberal and wantng to destroy his influence in the church) there are moderates who are open to more information than the ATS would be and I think their evidence is also good to look at.

I wish we would catch up with what Lynn Wood was teachng, and also it would be good if we would catch up with Hasel and Shea.

[Kevin H]

Not sure I agree with your assessment of 3ABN, at least not all of the speakers or programs. But that's only my opinion.

I did not mean for it to be an assessment of 3ABN as a whole (if it was I would not have been watching it in the first place) but you do find a wide range, from those who are deeper, to those who have an appeal that can definetely reach people, but which sounds more like a national enquire flair. But there are those who are basically a repeat of our traditions. Like this one person who I was friends with at Seminary. When I hear him speak I would not have recognized him for the person I went to school with. I would not recognize him as someone who studied with people like Hasel and Shea. He reminds me of the Doug Batchlor of many many years ago. But while Doug is someone who is clearly growing into deeper Bible study from less of a knowlege of the Bible, this guy had deep Bible study and knowlege. We had many good discussions. I had a lot of respect for him. He did excellent in his classes, but on 3ABN it looks like he was in a car accident and had a head trauma that erased everything he learned at the seminary. Instead of leadng people to deeper Bible study he is just coddelng people to their traditions.

And it is not just him. Some of our ABCs, even small ones have a good representative of our books and thoughts. But some like the ABC in NY City, the last few years the liberal material they carry is by Gerhard Hassel.

There is too much of a fear in us to become deeper students of scripture.

[John317]

Quote:

Kevin H: It's been a few years since I last went into detail on my understanding of the Investigative Judgment I need to see if I can find a day over the summer to post again.

That would be great, Kevin. I look forward to reading your thoughts.

[John317]

Quote:

Kevin H:

There is too much of a fear in us to become deeper students of scripture.

I don't watch 3abn or any SDA preachers on TV, nor do I read very much SDA literature except in our books and the SS quarterly. I've studied lots of SDA Bible study material in the past but now I mostly study the Bible and the SOP, together with dozens of reference works in theology, the Greek New Testament, Systematic Theology, textual studies, and many different translations of the Bible.

I certainly don't consider myself someone afraid of becoming a deeper student of Scripture, but neither do I believe "becoming deeper" means giving up the doctrines that Ellen White called the foundational pillars of our faith. What deeper Bible study does is give us a greater appreciation of the pillars of our faith and show us how deep and broad they are. If such study does nothing to help us apply those doctrines in a practical way to our individual lives, they aren't doing us much good.

I think one thing that has turned a lot of people off from the Investigative Judgment is that when they listen to discussion of it or read books about it, it seems to be all theory, and little of substance about why it's important.

Virtually all the books published by the church are devoted to proving that the Bible teaches the Investigative Judgment.

But very few answer the most fundamental questions asked by people who are convinced that there is indeed an Investigative Judgment: Who cares? So what? What difference does it make?

Now that we know there's an Investigative Judgment, how does it make a difference in my daily life? Am I a better person or a better Christian-- a better witness for Christ-- because of my belief in it? What is the difference between someone who keeps Sunday and an SDA who keeps the Sabbath and believes in the Investigative Judgment? (There should be a real difference if those truths are being understood and applied to the life.)

These are the important questions that need to be discussed and answered in the church today. Otherwise, the Investigative Judgment becomes just a lot of historical facts and mathematical formulas that often leave people exhausted and spiritually dry as the hills of Gilboa.

[John317]

Quote:

Shane:Grace should be part of presenting the Ten Commandments. I don't think grace should be taught apart from the Ten Commandments nor the Commandments taught apart from grace.

Amen, Shane. They always have to go together, I believe. If not, there's a danger of either "legalism" or "cheap grace"/"antinomianism". Both ways are roads to spiritual disaster.

The Ten Commandments can never save us or forgive us, but they do show us God's righteous character and what He wants us to be. But if anyone thinks they can obey them apart from the Holy Spirit in the life, they will find themselves experiencing Romans 7: 13-25 instead of God's plan for us, Romans 6 and 8.

[abelisle]

John317,

Virtually all the books published by the church are devoted to proving that the Bible teaches the Investigative Judgment.

But very few answer the most fundamental questions asked by people who are convinced that there is indeed an Investigative Judgment: Who cares? So what? What difference does it make?

Now that we know there's an Investigative Judgment, how does it make a difference in my daily life? Am I a better person or a better Christian-- a better witness for Christ-- because of my belief in it? What is the difference between someone who keeps Sunday and an SDA who keeps the Sabbath and believes in the Investigative Judgment? (There should be a real difference if those truths are being understood and applied to the life.)

These are the important questions that need to be discussed and answered in the church today. Otherwise, the Investigative Judgment becomes just a lot of historical facts and mathematical formulas that often leave people exhausted and spiritually dry as the hills of Gilboa.

On this I agree with you 100%. This is the postmodern question of the day. "What difference does what one believes in make in that person's life."

And if one would just read some comments that people make here on CA and read the vitriolic rhetoric, one would wonder if they are Christians with the love that the Bible exhorts us to have for all of mankind? We don't know who reads these forums aand we should try to exemplify our characters through our words. (me included)

If you can adequately amswer your own questions, that would be quite commendable.

Alex

[Kevin H]

I agree. One of the things holding us down is that although we have the historisist background, we tend to view it with a dispensationalist mindset: That it the prophet was focused upon the particular event and that is the one and only interpetation of the text.

The ancient world thought in cyclic thought, that things go in cycles and re-application. We get close to this in the idea of type and antitype. The proper methods are exogesis and historical analogy. What did the text originally mean, does the Bible re-apply it and what about the re-application(s)and do an exogesis of them.

The 2300 days meant something to Daniel in the year he had the vision in Daniel 8. It meant something else in Daniel 9, which is related to a 2300 day prophecy in Ezekiel 40 (if you tke the time periods in Ezekiel 40 you get 2310 days, but remove the 10 days from the fall new years to the first day of atonment in the cycle and you have a 2300 day time frame) and both applications mean something to us living today in how it points us to the great Investigative Judgment, and Dr. Waterhouse from Andrews gave a study (which I have to admit went over my head when it was presented in my Daniel class at AUC, but the teacher and some of the other students were very exicited about thinking it was a stronger argument for 1844 than Daniel 8:14 was) but as we learn what it meant in the past, what it means for us today then we can have the evidence to build on if the Holy Spirit still has a message for us from the 2300 days in the future.

One of the things with cyclic thought is the belief that we can be here and there. When we are baptized we are in Jerusalem going into death and the grave with Jesus and rising with him, we at the Jordon river being baptized with John, we are also at the Jordon crossing with Joshua, and the Red Sea crossing with Moses, and even with the mystery and corupted truths that the pagans were searching for in seeing the water having something to do with the gods of life gaining victory over chaos and the gods of death, such as in the Baal myth and Thor myth etc.

The ancient world believed the universe was egg shaped with the heavenly holy mountain at the top, there was also a holy mountain on earth and then there was the underworld. Events happenng in the heavenly world and underworld were reflected on earth. If a war on earth was the refecton of the god's fighting, then you don't need to have the whole army fight but pick two to fight and the one who wins will be a reflection of which god was winning up in heavenly world. Thus David and the giant.

If there is something of importance going on in the upper world; then we should see it's reflection here in our world.

[karl]

Quote:

We are in the investigative judgment; and the work for the time is solemn heart-searching. The duty devolves upon every one to consider, to watch, and to pray. You are not bidden by the Lord to examine your neighbor’s heart. Let your investigative powers be put to work to discover what evil is lurking in your own heart, what defects are in your character; what work needs to be done in your own home. Parents are responsible for the souls of their children; they are accountable for the mold of character they give them. They will, if they realize their duty, work most earnestly for their own salvation and for the salvation of their children. When parents are careless in their own ways, and in regard to the character and deportment of their children, they lose the favor of God. But every family that will seek God with humiliation and prayer will be doing the work that is essential for eternal salvation. RH, December 29, 1896

Maybe if the IJ gets us taking care of the beam in our own eye it is a good thing.

[Tom Wetmore]

...I think that would do a dis-service to the truth. We need to call sin by its right name.

If sin is wrong, how can it have a right name?

[Tom Wetmore]

Originally Posted By: John317

Synonyms of heretic:

schismatic

pagan

dissenter

sectarian

separationist

skeptic

nonconformist

1. a professed believer who maintains religious opinions contrary to those accepted by his or her church or rejects doctrines prescribed by that church.

2. In the Roman Catholic Church, it means . a baptized Roman Catholic who willfully and persistently rejects any article of faith.

3. anyone who does not conform to an established attitude, doctrine, or principle.

I am sorry, but the word "skeptic" is not a heretic....Skeptic describes an individual who is in transition between becoming a believer or a non-believer [aka atheist in the religious sense]. It is a temporary position only. the problem is no one knows how long it will take someone to believe or reject the prinicples in question... A skeptic muses/mulls/ponders/thinks about/reviews all the evidence for and against the priniciples in deciding which path he will choose...but choose he must, and he will either choose against those prinicples, and thus accept all arguements against the principle or becomes a believer, accepting the principles as valid for his life....All of us were skeptics at one time or another...and we all choose to the path where we are at at this moment in time.....

I agree... and would apply the same thought to some degree to the words to dissenters and noncoformists.

The bottom line is that the application of the label of "heretic" vs. any of those terms, or terms such as "reformer", "protestant", "free-thinker", "latitudinarian", etc., depends on whose ox is being gored.

[Kevin H]

In the above post I've put in a little teaser for what we can study for Daniel 8:14. While I believe in the investigative judgment, I also believe that it had a message for Daniel in his day when he got the vision. Then there was a re-application in Daniel 9 that is related to the 2300 day prophecy of Ezekiel 40 (which I'm familiar with but not competent with)Daniel 8:14 has pointed us to events that are going on in both heaven AND earth right now that Satan does not want us to see, and there may be a message for the time just before Jesus returns that it is not yet time for the Holy Spirit to show us, but which He will show us when it becomes pressent truth.

As for what the investigative judgment means for us today, I cannot over emphessise the chapter from the original "Sanctuary and the Atonment" yellow and black cover (not the later ATS stamp of approval blue copy) titled "We must all appear: The investigative judgment in the writings of Ellen G. White" Some of our leaders at the time said that they never really understood the investigative judgment until they read that chapter. The chapter points out how the investigative judgment plays a role in the working out of the universal issues of the Great Controversy.

Along with that information, there is the principle of as in heaven so on earth, the reflection. between the two. In a nut shell: in the 1830s Robinson explored the land of the Bible and re-discovered many of the ancient geographical locations. This opened the door for archaeology, which unlocked ancient cultures and uncovered ancient manuscrips where we can study the languages better. The Rosetta stone was discifered. Before the mid 1800s we had the words of the Bible, but did not have in our mind the geographic setting, the cultural setting nor all the different shades of meanings that a word can have. Infact many of our words translators had to guess at. But as of about 20 years ago there were only about 3,000 words left in the Bible that translators had to guess at.

Now many who study these facts are non-believers who only sees it as antropological facts. But for the believer it gives us tools to study the Bible on a level that Luther, Wesley and Usher could only dream of. The Holy Spirit pointing the eyes to the health message, technology so that the Bible is not only printed in fantastic type of different sizes but on tape, CD and DVD that we can listen to when working around the house and yard, driving, etc. There are Bibles written on the 3rd grade reading level. Can you imagne what Tyndal would feel if he could see all this? For us this deeper knowlege of the Bible can give a deeper knowlege of the God of the Bible. As we have a deeper knowlege of the God of the Bible, by beholding we become changed.

These are things that make the Investigative Judgment pertenent. We need to move with Jesus into this exciting time. But too many are staying out in the earlier compartment, living with the older traditions not taking advantage of the discoveries we now have of the Bible. where Satan has come in to start answering their prayers.

John, you have a powerful libarary. You are doing what needs to be done. You are reading the front line books. However I'd encourage you to expand some to second line books. Just get these and you will have all the libarary you will need for where we currently are:

John Bright's "A History of Israel"

Aharononi's "The Land of the Bible"

The MacMillian Bible Atlas

(you can stop here if you wish, but I'd recommend to continue)

Abraham Johsua Heshel "The Prophets"

If you can find (I wish we would reprint)

Henri Frankfort and others "Before Philosophy"

George McCready Price "The Time of the End"

Biblical Research Committee "The Sanctuary and the Atonement" (the yellow and black covered one, not the blue and red one)

And it would be wise to read at least twice every year:

"The Role of Israel in Old Testament Prophecy" in the SDABC

"The Orgin of Evil" in Patarchars and Prophets

"Why was sin permitted" in Great Controversy

(the two chapers together are even more powerful than each single because they both have strong and weak points that complement each other)

"It is Finished" in Desire of Ages.

John (and everyone else) add these to your libarary and study and you will surprise yourself as to how well you will be dong and the texts that will come alive and open to you. Of course the Jim Fleming material is wise to have but the above is what you need. You are already eating the fruits, nuts and grains, the above books will give you the vegtables and exercise to ballance everything out.

Thursday night at Campmeeting I was asked to give a 15 minute talk to the Junors. I showed a map then slide of the probable location of the story of the prodigal son and the historical, cultural and geographic background. I had to leave right after the meeting as I had to be back at work Friday, but when I was leaving the pastor said "This is the first time they sat still all week, they were mesmorized" and I past a few of the children at the last stop of the ABC and last trip to the men's room and was stopped by comments such as "Way to go" and high 10's. All I did was take a story that they heard all their lives and made it come alive as they could learn some of the background and where it probably took place. The investigative judgment allows them to expirence ths story like never before.

[abelisle]

Thursday night at Campmeeting I was asked to give a 15 minute talk to the Junors. I showed a map then slide of the probable location of the story of the prodigal son and the historical, cultural and geographic background. I had to leave right after the meeting as I had to be back at work Friday, but when I was leaving the pastor said "This is the first time they sat still all week, they were mesmorized" and I past a few of the children at the last stop of the ABC and last trip to the men's room and was stopped by comments such as "Way to go" and high 10's. All I did was take a story that they heard all their lives and made it come alive as they could learn some of the background and where it probably took place. The investigative judgment allows them to expirence ths story like never before.

Kevin H

Somehow I think it was your use of visual media, not the IJ that caught their attention and your use of historical background info.

Also the EGW quote sounds like we have to "work" harder at "working" out our salvation? Salvation by works, anyone?

And I still don't understand how the IJ articulates with our "deeper" understanding of the Bible?

Finally how does the IJ make a difference in my life to the point where I can answer the postmodernist's query as to "how has this changed your life for the better?"

Alex

[Kevin H]

Quote:

We are in the investigative judgment; and the work for the time is solemn heart-searching. The duty devolves upon every one to consider, to watch, and to pray. You are not bidden by the Lord to examine your neighbor’s heart. Let your investigative powers be put to work to discover what evil is lurking in your own heart, what defects are in your character; what work needs to be done in your own home. Parents are responsible for the souls of their children; they are accountable for the mold of character they give them. They will, if they realize their duty, work most earnestly for their own salvation and for the salvation of their children. When parents are careless in their own ways, and in regard to the character and deportment of their children, they lose the favor of God. But every family that will seek God with humiliation and prayer will be doing the work that is essential for eternal salvation. RH, December 29, 1896

Maybe if the IJ gets us taking care of the beam in our own eye it is a good thing.

Exactly. As we learn more about the Bible and the God of the Bible we can see more what is happening with us. By beholding we become changed. Thank you Karl

I ended up working in the field of mental health, and the schools of thought that I find myself attracted to in this field are the ones which I see as in line with what the doctrine of the Investigative Judgment teaches.

[Gerr]

John317' date='

[i']Virtually all the books published by the church are devoted to proving that the Bible teaches the Investigative Judgment.

But very few answer the most fundamental questions asked by people who are convinced that there is indeed an Investigative Judgment: Who cares? So what? What difference does it make?

Now that we know there's an Investigative Judgment, how does it make a difference in my daily life? Am I a better person or a better Christian-- a better witness for Christ-- because of my belief in it? What is the difference between someone who keeps Sunday and an SDA who keeps the Sabbath and believes in the Investigative Judgment? (There should be a real difference if those truths are being understood and applied to the life.)

Well, how does the doctrine of the Trinity make a difference in your life? Or whether there is a rapture or not?

But to answer your question. The IJ tells me about the openness of God. It tells us whether what God is true or not. It lays open His justice for all to see. It removes any doubt as to why a person we thought should be in heaven but is not, and a person we thought should be in hell but is not. This gives me even more faith and confidence in Him. That's the difference it makes in my life.

[Tom Wetmore]

Well, that sounds good. But how does that openness idea fit with one of the central timeline themes of Adventism that the IJ began in 1844 and ends just before the second coming when Jesus returns to execute that judgment. By the time we will have an opportunity to witness the open justice, it will be after it is all completely accomplished. The entire process is hidden from our view, largely a mystery to us. Mysteries are not openness.

Oh yes, I know you may respond by saying Ha the other worlds witness it now. But that is not what you said above. They is not us.

And you may respond by saying that after we all get to heaven he will show us and explain and we will understand. Again that is not an open process of judgment. It is an explanation after the fact of what already happened behind closed doors, which is also not what you described.

[John317]

Quote:

abelisle: And if one would just read some comments that people make here on CA and read the vitriolic rhetoric, one would wonder if they are Christians with the love that the Bible exhorts us to have for all of mankind? We don't know who reads these forums aand we should try to exemplify our characters through our words. (me included)

That's exactly the reason for the rules of the Forum and the attempt to enforce them through editing and deleting when people don't follow them. We try to keep people from making personal attacks, yet in the final analysis people's attitudes and their words depend on all the members voluntarily and even joyfully doing what is right, even when others aren't.

Quote:

Alex: If you can adequately amswer your own questions, that would be quite commendable.

Everyone must answer these questions for themselves, just like none of us can believe in the Bible or in Christ for someone else. Books that help answer the questions can be a guide but they won't do any of us any good if we just passively read them and don't study the subject and think these things through for our ourselves.

[John317]

Quote:

abelisle:

Also the EGW quote sounds like we have to "work" harder at "working" out our salvation? Salvation by works, anyone?

I don't believe Ellen White is teaching righteousness or salvation by works, even though it may appear that way to some people. It's also common for readers to think that James and Jude and even some parts of the Gospel teach the same thing, but they don't.

Quote:

abelisle: And I still don't understand how the IJ articulates with our "deeper" understanding of the Bible?

It depends on what we mean by "deeper understanding of the Bible."

What are the main messages of the Bible? For instance, what is God trying to teach us in Leviticus, the Gospels, Romans, Daniel, Revelation, etc.?

I don't think an understanding of the answers to your question will come to anyone without deep study of the Bible and the Spirit of prophecy, conversation with fellow believers, prayer and reflection.

I would like to know what you think regarding the following statements in the book, Great Controversy. Specifically, what is Ellen White referring to when she talks about "new duties," "the benefits," "what duties are required of us," all in relationship to Christ's ministry in the heavenly sanctuary? See GC 425-432.

Light was to be given, directing their minds to the temple of God in heaven; and as they should by faith follow their High Priest in His ministration there, new duties would be revealed. GC 425, par 0.

... This work of examination of character, of determining who are prepared for the kingdom of God, is that of the investigative judgment, the closing of work in the sanctuary above.

When the work of investigation shall be ended, when the cases of those who in all ages have professed to be followers of Christ have been examined and decided, then, and not till then, probation will close, and the door of mercy will be shut. GC 428, par 1,2.

It is those who by faith follow Jesus in the great work of the atonement who receive the benefits of His mediation in their behalf, while those who reject the light which brings to view this work of ministration are not benefited thereby. GC 430, par 2.

The condition of the unbelieving Jews illustrates the condition of the careless and unbelieving among professed Christians, who are willingly ignorant of the work of our merciful High Priest. In the typical service, when the high priest entered the most holy place, all Israel were required to gather about the sanctuary and in the most solemn manner humble their souls before God, that they might receive the pardon of their sins and not be cut off from the congregation. How much more essential in this antitypical Day of Atonement that we understand the work of our High Priest and know what duties are required of us.

Men cannot with impunity reject the warning which God in mercy sends them. GC 430, 431

Quote:

abelisle: Finally how does the IJ make a difference in my life to the point where I can answer the postmodernist's query as to "how has this changed your life for the better?"

I think this is the most essential question. If it hasn't change the believer's life, it's because he hasn't grasped what it really means or else he's resisting what God is trying to teach him through it.

Would you be interested in reading a book that helps answer this question?

Question:

Does God want us to be skeptics/ heretics when it comes to the Investigative Judgment?

[phkrause]

Quote:

abelisle:

Also the EGW quote sounds like we have to "work" harder at "working" out our salvation? Salvation by works, anyone?

I don't believe Ellen White is teaching righteousness or salvation by works, even though it may appear that way to some people. It's also common for readers to think that James and Jude and even some parts of the Gospel teach the same thing, but they don't.

Quote:

abelisle: And I still don't understand how the IJ articulates with our "deeper" understanding of the Bible?

It depends on what we mean by "deeper understanding of the Bible."

What are the main messages of the Bible? For instance, what is God trying to teach us in Leviticus, the Gospels, Romans, Daniel, Revelation, etc.?

I don't think an understanding of the answers to your question will come to anyone without deep study of the Bible and the Spirit of prophecy, conversation with fellow believers, prayer and reflection.

I would like to know what you think regarding the following statements in the book, Great Controversy. Specifically, what is Ellen White referring to when she talks about "new duties," "the benefits," "what duties are required of us," all in relationship to Christ's ministry in the heavenly sanctuary? See GC 425-432.

Light was to be given, directing their minds to the temple of God in heaven; and as they should by faith follow their High Priest in His ministration there, new duties would be revealed. GC 425, par 0.

... This work of examination of character, of determining who are prepared for the kingdom of God, is that of the investigative judgment, the closing of work in the sanctuary above.

When the work of investigation shall be ended, when the cases of those who in all ages have professed to be followers of Christ have been examined and decided, then, and not till then, probation will close, and the door of mercy will be shut. GC 428, par 1,2.

It is those who by faith follow Jesus in the great work of the atonement who receive the benefits of His mediation in their behalf, while those who reject the light which brings to view this work of ministration are not benefited thereby. GC 430, par 2.

The condition of the unbelieving Jews illustrates the condition of the careless and unbelieving among professed Christians, who are willingly ignorant of the work of our merciful High Priest. In the typical service, when the high priest entered the most holy place, all Israel were required to gather about the sanctuary and in the most solemn manner humble their souls before God, that they might receive the pardon of their sins and not be cut off from the congregation. How much more essential in this antitypical Day of Atonement that we understand the work of our High Priest and know what duties are required of us.

Men cannot with impunity reject the warning which God in mercy sends them. GC 430, 431

Quote:

abelisle: Finally how does the IJ make a difference in my life to the point where I can answer the postmodernist's query as to "how has this changed your life for the better?"

I think this is the most essential question. If it hasn't change the believer's life, it's because he hasn't grasped what it really means or else he's resisting what God is trying to teach him through it.

Would you be interested in reading a book that helps answer this question?

Question:

Does God want us to be skeptics/ heretics when it comes to the Investigative Judgment?

Excellent points John.

[abelisle]

Frankly I don't see how the IJ makes me a better person, Christian or Adventist. It might make me better informed about Adventist doctrinal belief.

But John, you didn't respond to your own questions which were very apropos for our times. I'm hoping you can give us some concrete, pragmatical answers and if you're writing a book that answers these issues, that's great.

Alex

[Kevin H]

I wrote a reply but then the phone line went out for the area: I'll try to come back to it, but four basic things:

1. In the ancient world court systems always had investigative judgments as part of their process. And in the Bible we frequently find God doing investigative judgments before doing something.

2. As for this investigative judgment that we see, the historical process of the world was not ready for this until the mid 1800s.

3. For the heavenly beings who closed their probation at the cross, they get to review how the cross works in our life which helps them understand their own salvation better.

For us on earth we get to understand the Bible and apply Biblical principles such as never before possible.

4. Let's not forget the Investigative Judgment comes from the same author who gave us the birth of Jesus and the Resurection of Jesus, so why do we want this author to stop giving us stories?

[Lysimachus]

Frankly I don't see how the IJ makes me a better person, Christian or Adventist. It might make me better informed about Adventist doctrinal belief.

But John, you didn't respond to your own questions which were very apropos for our times. I'm hoping you can give us some concrete, pragmatical answers and if you're writing a book that answers these issues, that's great.

Alex

I think it is pretty simple abelisle. The Investigative Judgment puts a sense of urgency of the nearness of Christ's coming, and the completion of his mediatorial work. On the Day of Atonement, the congregation gathered together waiting for the High Priest come out and sprinkle blood upon them and bless them. If any of them were to be found with unconfessed sin, they were cast out of the congregation.

Grasping this concept that we are living shortly before the time when Christ will walk out of the Holy of Holies helps to instill that sense of urgency of just how soon the Close of Probation is, and how we should be agonizing and pleading for the Return of the Latter Rain. We should be shedding our defects of character, and dying daily.

Without the doctrine of the Investigative Judgment, it leaves us "aloof" to just how close Jesus is to ceasing his ministerial work in the heavenly sanctuary. With out the IJ, we have no real "way marker" that helps us to conceptualize how much in earnest we should be so that we are ready to meet our Maker when He comes crashing through the clouds of glory.

I remember presenting this doctrine to my cousin once (who was studying Adventism for the first time), and I hadn't even gotten to the part about the fact that Jesus is coming soon. All on his own, once he grasped that Jesus was in the last phase of his ministerial work in the heavenly sanctuary, it hit him like a ton of bricks, and he said "wow, that means we are almost home! That means it can't be much longer before Jesus comes!".....it was this VERY doctrine of the IJ that helped him to wake up as to just how soon Jesus is coming!!! And that we truly have to get ready!

Do you see it?? This is BEAUTIFUL!

This doctrine helps to draw a nice map in our minds for us so that we might see our place in history. Some may argue and say "well, why has Jesus been in the Most Holy Place for 166 years then if ministering in their means He is coming so soon?" Uhhh....compare 166 years of Christ's ministration in the Most Holy Place to his 1810 years of ministration in the Holy Place. Suddenly, 166 years so far is only a SMIDGEN in comparison to the last 2,000 years of this earth's history. We are to think of "time" in God's perspective, not man's perspective. Man's perspective of time is very limited and narrow.

I hope this is making sense.

God bless,

Marcos