Present doctrine of atonement fallacies

[pnattmbtc]

One should not be wedded to one particular view of the atonement because all the metaphors that the Bible uses will have a breakdown somewhere along the line. That's why so many metaphors are used to illustrate certain aspects of the truth.

As I said before, while God is loving and merciful, He also has to deal with the law & its demand for justice. IOW, how can He be merciful and just at the same time when He accepts a sinner into the presence of a holy God whose eyes cannot countenance evil?

[fccool]

Quote:

1.Does God command us to do things we believe are morally wrong?

2.Does God expect us to obey Him in a way that does not involve are reason?

3.Does God give us sufficient evidence upon which to base our faith, and thus obey Him? (this supposes that to obey requires faith; also it should be noted that "sufficient" means "enough to for the basis for a sound decision" and not "so much as to not leave any room for doubt or answer any possible question.")

4.What would it say about God if the answer to the above questions is "Yes."?

1) There were some examples where such was the case... but this is spoken from perspective of a human, which neglects the idea of sovereignty. Even though God asked Abraham to kill his son, for example... it was not apart from underlying spiritual lesson for both Abraham and for generations to come.

Lekewise, in the example of Peter and the table... God already knew the outcome. But the process was necessary for object lesson.

2) No. People love to quote..."Trust in the Lord ... and lean not on your own understanding" , but it's an epistemological paradox. We have to deduce THROUGH OUR REASON the understanding of God and thus align our thought patterns with those of God the best way we can.

We have to deduce through reason that stoning people is morally wrong today. We have to deduce through reason that eating meat is not morally wrong.

3) I think you should clarify what you mean by that. He certainly gives us enough reason to believe that He is just and loving... even by mere fact that He created the world which we can enjoy, even in fallen state.

4) I'll let you answer this question... I think you've missed #3 being YES :)

[pnattmbtc]

p:1.Does God command us to do things we believe are morally wrong?

2.Does God expect us to obey Him in a way that does not involve are reason?

3.Does God give us sufficient evidence upon which to base our faith, and thus obey Him? (this supposes that to obey requires faith; also it should be noted that "sufficient" means "enough to for the basis for a sound decision" and not "so much as to not leave any room for doubt or answer any possible question.")

4.What would it say about God if the answer to the above questions is "Yes."?

f:1) There were some examples where such was the case... but this is spoken from perspective of a human, which neglects the idea of sovereignty. Even though God asked Abraham to kill his son, for example... it was not apart from underlying spiritual lesson for both Abraham and for generations to come.

[Robert]

Regarding Abraham, this would be supposing that Abraham thought it was morally wrong for him to offer his son as a sacrifice to God. I don't think this is a warranted assumption. I don't think Abraham would have done it if he thought it were morally wrong, for one thing (nor would God have asked him to). We need to take into account the culture at that time, where human sacrifice was common.

I have a better explanation. God never intended Abraham to kill Issac. To understand this we need to look at Abraham's history. Are you guys up for it?

Rob

[Nic Samojluk]

373535 - Yesterday at 08:14 PM Re: Present doctrine of atonement fallacies [Re: fccool]

Gal. 5: 19 is one: "Now the works of the old nature are well known and include, for example, sexual vice [or sexual immorality], impurity [uncleaness], indecency [licentiousness],.."

[Nic Samojluk]

I worked in a mental hospital in San Bernardino and knew patients who couldn't function because of their addiction to masturbation. Some literally could not go half an hour without doing it.

This confirms what I said before in my previous posting. You are talking and Mrs. White was talking not about self use, but rather to self abuse. People get addicted to sex, to drugs, to work, to sports, to alcoholic beverages, to sugary foods, and so on. We need to abstain from what is harmful and from the excessive use of what is healthful.

[Nic Samojluk]

No, guys...we died....The law demands our death. We died to the law in the body of Christ. When One died, all died because all men were gathered up into Christ. The law can only be satisfied if you die. So either you can accept your death in Christ or you must suffer your own personal death under law.

[Robert]

The condition for life is repentance and obedience:

21“But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. 22 None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him. Because of the righteous things he has done, he will live. 23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live? [Ezek. 18]

Sorry, you'll never make it to heaven based on your obedience because you are never living Christ's life and His life answers all the law.

Repentance isn't keeping the law....It's admitting you are a sinner. And you are never without sin...if you say you are then you are deceived.

Your quote above is Old Covenant. Why? The demand is "obey and live". While growth does occur in the believer he/she is not living Christ's life.

[fccool]

Robert,

With the statement above, we are kind of back to square #1 of this discussion. You are making several cliche statements here, without providing the underlying explanation. Let me demonstrate:

Quote:

Sorry, you'll never make it to heaven based on your obedience because you are never living Christ's life and His life answers all the law.

Explain the above as you would explain it to a person that does not understand religious jargon. What does it mean to live Christ's life?

Quote:

Repentance isn't keeping the law....It's admitting you are a sinner. And you are never without sin...if you say you are then you are deceived.

True repentance is not merely admitting you are a sinner. That's not Biblical model for repentance. Biblical model for repentance is 180 turn from sin... not merely the act of acknowledgment.

Quote:

Your quote above is Old Covenant. Why? The demand is "obey and live". While growth does occur in the believer he/she is not living Christ's life.

Again, explain to me, as you would explain to a person who does not speak the religious jargon... what does it mean to be "living Christ's life"?

[Robert]

What does it mean to live Christ's life?

Christ:

"Jesus...thought not, planned not, lived not, for himself."

The believer:

He who says, “I am holy, I am sinless,” is self-deceived. Some have said this, and some even dare to say, “I am Christ.” To entertain such a thought is blasphemy. Not to see the marked contrast between Christ and ourselves is not to know ourselves. He who does not abhor himself can not understand the meaning of redemption.

[Robert]

True repentance is not merely admitting you are a sinner. That's not Biblical model for repentance. Biblical model for repentance is 180 turn from sin... not merely the act of acknowledgment.

Then stop sinning and you won't have to repent....

[fccool]

Originally Posted By: fccool

What does it mean to live Christ's life?

Christ: "Jesus...thought not, planned not, lived not, for himself."

The believer: He who says, “I am holy, I am sinless,” is self-deceived. Some have said this, and some even dare to say, “I am Christ.” To entertain such a thought is blasphemy. Not to see the marked contrast between Christ and ourselves is not to know ourselves. He who does not abhor himself can not understand the meaning of redemption.

Robert,

Once again... you are talking religious language. Pretend that I don't understand it. I don's understand the jargon. I don't understand blasphemy. I don't understand holy and sinless. I don't understand redemption.

On top of that, using everyday language of normal human beings... what does it mean to live Christ's life?

[fccool]

Originally Posted By: fccool

True repentance is not merely admitting you are a sinner. That's not Biblical model for repentance. Biblical model for repentance is 180 turn from sin... not merely the act of acknowledgment.

Then stop sinning and you won't have to repent....

Robert... the act of commitment to "stop sinning" is in fact repentance.

[Nic Samojluk]

"For no one can ever be made right with God by doing what the law commands. The law simply shows us how sinful we are. But now God has shown us a way to be made right with him without keeping the requirements of the law, as was promised in the writings of Moses and the prophets long ago. We are made right with God by placing our faith in Jesus Christ. And this is true for everyone who believes, no matter who we are." Rom 3:20-22 NLT.

[Robert]

On top of that, using everyday language of normal human beings... what does it mean to live Christ's life?

I can tell you this, mankind by nature is proud...he is legalistic! He thinks he can earn heaven by his good deeds. After all, the worldly man will tell you that if you want something you must earn it...you must work hard at it. Why, he asks, would salvation be any different?

I talked with this guy at work. He said, "I don't cheat on my wife...I'm good to my kids...I provide them with a nice home and all the things they want. I am good man, why do I need Christ?"

We need Christ because all of us are selfish in someway. As EGW states, "We may have flattered ourselves, as did Nicodemus, that our life has been upright, that our moral character is correct, and think that we need not humble the heart before God, like the common sinner: but when the light from Christ shines into our souls, we shall see how impure we are; we shall discern the selfishness of motive, the enmity against God, that has defiled every act of life. [sC 28]

I would tell them that living for yourself, instead of others, is sin. One ounce of self-interests is sin under law.

[Nic Samojluk]

To all,

How did a discussion on the atonement degenerate into masturbation and condoms?

Can we get back to the atonement?

Sure. Let's do that!

[fccool]

I can tell you this, mankind by nature is proud...he is legalistic! He thinks he can earn heaven by his good deeds. After all, the worldly man will tell you that if you want something you must earn it...you must work hard at it. Why, he asks, would salvation be any different?

I talked with this guy at work. He said, "I don't cheat on my wife...I'm good to my kids...I provide them with a nice home and all the things they want. I am good man, why do I need Christ?"

We need Christ because all of us are selfish in someway. As EGW states, "We may have flattered ourselves, as did Nicodemus, that our life has been upright, that our moral character is correct, and think that we need not humble the heart before God, like the common sinner: but when the light from Christ shines into our souls, we shall see how impure we are; we shall discern the selfishness of motive, the enmity against God, that has defiled every act of life. [sC 28]

I would tell them that living for yourself, instead of others, is sin. One ounce of self-interests is sin under law.

Robert,

What does it mean to live Christ's life? Are you avoiding my question? I'm not talking about our ability or inability to earn us salvation. This is not the question I'm asking. I'm asking plainly and simply

What does it mean to live Christ's life?

People say things like these without any underlying explanation. I would like you to explain.

[Robert]

What does it mean to live Christ's life?

To live a life with no thoughts towards yourself. To live for others as you naturally, spontaneously live for yourself. Anything outside this definition is polluted with selfishness, which is the essence of all sin.

[fccool]

Robert,

Do you believe that you and I live Christ's life based on the definition that you gave?

How sure are you that when you chose Christ... that there were no hint of selfishness in that decision?

[Nic Samojluk]

You'd be much better off, if your desire is to try to open the minds of others to another way of seeing things, if you just avoided the subject of the Spirit of Prophecy altogether and simply stayed with Scripture.

[Nic Samojluk]

Originally Posted By: Nic

The practice of documenting sources was not established in biblical times; besides, Bible writers did not make us believe that they were not dependent on other human sources. The practice of giving credit to other authors was fairly established when Mrs. White was writing. James White once complained that other publishers were borrowing from Adventist sources without giving proper credit. On top of all this, Ellen White made me believe that she was no dependent on other authors for what she was writing.

There's a lot of misinformation on this subject.

David Conklin has researched this subject for years, meticulously documenting instances of similar phrases used in a number of different books. For example, looking through the following link, one can see every instance of similar phrases from "The Desire of Ages" and other books that have been mentioned as sources from which Ellen White supposedly plagiarized.

http://dedication.www3.50megs.com/David/index.html

Yes, there is misinformation and disagreements. Nevertheless, most experts do agree that she did borrow extensively. When you add to this the fact that she seemed to deny dependency on other writers, you have to admit that we need to test her writings by the Bible. She left us with no other alternative.

[Nic Samojluk]

1.God saw that you would choose to eat pizza.

2.God recorded this fact.

[Nic Samojluk]

I have a better explanation. God never intended Abraham to kill Issac. To understand this we need to look at Abraham's history. Are you guys up for it?

Rob

Yes! How could he? Neither did he intend to convey the notion that it was his original plan that the Jewish leaders choose to crucify Jesus Christ

[Robert]

Robert,

Do you believe that you and I live Christ's life based on the definition that you gave?

No....

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

I have a better explanation. God never intended Abraham to kill Issac. To understand this we need to look at Abraham's history. Are you guys up for it?

Rob

Yes! How could he? Neither did he intend to convey the notion that it was his original plan that the Jewish leaders choose to crucify Jesus Christ

Gen 22:1 After these things God tested Abraham and said to him, "Abraham!" "Here I am," he answered. 2 "Take your son," He said, "your only [son] Isaac, whom you love, go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains I will tell you about." 3