Present doctrine of atonement fallacies

[Robert]

Great answer. I love it!

Bad answer....Easily disproved.

[fccool]

Did you used to believe penal substitution, fccool? Or you never did?

I used to believe it... as it was taught by virtually every religious educational institution that I've attended. Likewise I's been taught in the churches today.

I've started questioning it about a year ago, along with the doctrine of "sinful from birth". I believe these two go hand in hand.

[pnattmbtc]

I used to believe it... as it was taught by virtually every religious educational institution that I've attended. Likewise I's been taught in the churches today.

I've started questioning it about a year ago, along with the doctrine of "sinful from birth". I believe these two go hand in hand.

They don't necessarily go together. The most usual version goes like this:

1.All have sinned.

2.The law demands perfection.

3.One sin and you're going to hell.

4.Unless you accept Jesus Christ, who paid the price for you.

5.If you accept Christ, then God, instead of burning you in hell, will let you go to heaven instead.

There's nothing in this presentation which mentions sinful from birth. I'm not saying that this means there can't be a connection, but that it doesn't appear to me that there must be a connection.

It's rather striking to me that the negative presentation of God's character isn't perceived.

Another interesting point is that many appear to conceive of the law as if it were a separate entity which existed of itself. It's as if God doesn't want to punish Christ so we can go free, but the big, bad law makes Him do it. This is not recognizing that the law simply represents the will and mind of God.

It seems to me what goes hand in hand with the penal substitution theory is the idea that sin is something which is punished by God arbitrarily (e.g. by burning people alive for days, or for all eternity, depending on the version) as opposed to a natural consequence.

[fccool]

Most presentations I've heard, and taught to hand out do not start with "All have sinned". The start with Adam sinned ...

The ones that did not involved unreasonable logic like:

1) Have you ever stole anything?

- Yes....?

What does that make you?

- I don't know...

It makes you a thief...

Have you ever lied?

- Yes....?

What does it make you?

- A liar?

You are catching on fast

Basically, one would be ascribed a certain lifestyle of unrighteousness based on few bad decisions. Do you believe God does that to us?

PS. I don't dispute the need for God's direction, but merely the logic that underlines the above "witnessing technique"

[pnattmbtc]

Here's a presentation: (from the 4 spiritual laws)

1. God LOVES you and offers a wonderful PLAN for your life.

God's Love

"God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life" (John 3:16 NIV).

God's Plan

[Christ speaking] "I came that they might have life, and might have it abundantly" [that it might be full and meaningful] (John 10:10).

2. Man is SINFUL and SEPARATED from God. Therefore, he cannot know and experience God's love and plan for his life.

Man Is Sinful

"All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23).

Man Is Separated

"The wages of sin is death" [spiritual separation from God] (Romans 6:23).

3. Jesus Christ is God's ONLY provision for man's sin. Through Him you can know and experience God's love and plan for your life.

He Died in Our Place

"God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us" (Romans 5:8).

He Is the Only Way to God

"Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me'" (John 14:6).

4. We must individually RECEIVE Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord; then we can know and experience God's love and plan for our lives.

We Must Receive Christ

"As many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name" (John 1:12).

We Receive Christ Through Faith

"By grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast" (Ephesians 2:8,9).

(end)

This actually isn't too bad (at least, I've seen worse). Nothing about how God will burn you if you don't do what He says.

[Gerr]

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To answer the second part of this question, understanding "substitution" to mean "penal substitution," it doesn't relate to the first part because penal substitution doesn't solve the problem that's the real issue.

I don't see how you can escape from the penal substitution idea. "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us..." Gal 3:13 ESV

"Christ took away the curse the law put on us. He changed places with us and put himself under that curse..." NCV

"But Christ has rescued us from the curse pronounced by the law. When he was hung on the cross, he took upon himself the curse for our wrongdoing." NLT

As Judge, God HAS to uphold the law! God's justice is only one of the issues that has to be addressed.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq

perhaps there could be more elaboration of the Christus Victor theme? (if i spelled and named it correctly)

Please look at the following and let me know what you think: (Sorry not to answer the question myself, but 1) very pressed for time; 2)I like how Greg explains this theme)

http://www.gregboyd.org/category/essays/essays-jesus/atonement-essays-jesus-essays/

[teresaq]

actually what i enumerated as "8" should probably be the roman numeral "I" with all the rest following under...

[pnattmbtc]

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I don't see how you can escape from the penal substitution idea. "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us..." Gal 3:13 ESV

Why should one think this has anything to do with penal substitution? For many centuries no one had this idea.

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"Christ took away the curse the law put on us. He changed places with us and put himself under that curse..." NCV

"But Christ has rescued us from the curse pronounced by the law. When he was hung on the cross, he took upon himself the curse for our wrongdoing." NLT

As Judge, God HAS to uphold the law! God's justice is only one of the issues that has to be addressed.

This is again speaking as if the law were something foreign to God Himself. Any law is but the extension of the mind and will of its creator. Why would you think that God would create a law that would require Him to kill someone in order to forgive us? What sense does that make?

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13Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:(KJV)

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13Christ did redeem us from the curse of the law, having become for us a curse, for it hath been written, `Cursed is every one who is hanging on a tree,' (YLT)

This is what Gal. 3:13 actually says. The ESV is close to this. The other two are not what Paul actually wrote.

[pnattmbtc]

so this would be a more inclusive view than "penal atonement"? also one that upholds Christ in much more than a nominal view?

[Gerr]

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Why should one think this has anything to do with penal substitution? For many centuries no one had this idea.

How much more plain would you like a statement to be? Paul plainly says that Christ took the curse, the penalty of the law in OUR place!!! So I don't see how you can say that NOBODY had this idea.

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"Christ took away the curse the law put on us. He changed places with us and put himself under that curse..." NCV

"But Christ has rescued us from the curse pronounced by the law. When he was hung on the cross, he took upon himself the curse for our wrongdoing." NLT

As Judge, God HAS to uphold the law! God's justice is only one of the issues that has to be addressed.

This is again speaking as if the law were something foreign to God Himself. Any law is but the extension of the mind and will of its creator. Why would you think that God would create a law that would require Him to kill someone in order to forgive us? What sense does that make?

I think I already answeered that question. As Judge God hHAS to uphold the authority of the law which say - the wages of sin is death. Transgressors cut themselves off from the source of life when they break His law.

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13Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:(KJV)

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13Christ did redeem us from the curse of the law, having become for us a curse, for it hath been written, `Cursed is every one who is hanging on a tree,' (YLT)

This is what Gal. 3:13 actually says. The ESV is close to this. The other two are not what Paul actually wrote.

But the thought of a penal substitution is the underlying thought in all three.

[pnattmbtc]

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p:Why should one think this has anything to do with penal substitution? For many centuries no one had this idea.

G:How much more plain would you like a statement to be? Paul plainly says that Christ took the curse, the penalty of the law in OUR place!!! So I don't see how you can say that NOBODY had this idea.

Anyone who's studied the history can verify this is the case. If someone had had this idea, they would have written it. Nobody did until the 11th century. The Eastern Orthodox church split off from the Roman Catholic church before this idea was articulated. The STILL don't have this idea.

It's not an idea in the original text. It's an idea read into the text based on Western ideas of justice.

The scriptural idea of justice is not one of retributive justice which is at odds with mercy, causing God a conflict which must be met by His killing His son, but one of restorative justice which is manifest by mercy and compassion. Christ made this abundantly clear by His life and teachings. What did He teach we should do when wronged? Insist upon a debt being paid? No. He taught that we should freely forgive. He taught our forgiveness should be like that which we have received. How did Christ forgive? He forgave freely. We see this clearly with the paralytic and the woman caught in adultery. He didn't insist that a debt be paid, but freely forgave.

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This is what the LORD Almighty says: "Administer true justice; show mercy and compassion to one another."(Zech. 7:9;NIV)

How is justice administered? By insisting upon a debt being paid? No, but by showing mercy and compassion.

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He has shown you, O man, what is good.

And what does the LORD require of you?

To act justly and to love mercy

and to walk humbly with your God.(Micah 6:8)

This is what the law requires! Just what God requires. No more, and no less.

Gal. 3:13 says that Christ was made a curse for us, which consisted in His being hung on a tree (i.e., crucified). This idea does not necessitate penal substitution! For there to be penal substitution that would have to be the idea that Christ did so in order to enable God to be able to legally forgive us, but this idea is absent from the text, and this is an idea that Christ nowhere taught.

What is the problem that man has? It is a legal one, or a relational one? It's a relational one. Man does not know God's character. Satan misrepresented God's character, and thus deceived man and angels. This is what led man into unbelief. To be freed from Satan's power, to be set right and kept right, it was necessary for Christ to reveal the truth. Christ's becoming a curse for us revealed the truth about God, about Satan, about sin, and about us.

Here's Waggoner's comment on Gal. 3:13

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That death is the curse is evident from the last part of verse 13, "Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree." Christ was made a curse for us, in that He hung on a tree, that is, was crucified. But sin is the cause of death. "By one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." Rom.5:12. "The sting of death is sin." 1Cor.15:56. So we have the substance of verse 10 thus, that those who do not continue in the things written in the law are dead. That is, disobedience is death. And this is what the Scripture says: "When lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin; and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death." Sin contains death, and men out of Christ are "dead in trespasses and sins." It matters not that they walk about seemingly full of life, the words of Christ are, "Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink His blood, ye have no life in you." John 6:53. "She that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth." 1Tim.5:6. It is a living death--a body of death--that is endured. Rom.7:24. Sin is the transgression of the law; the wages of sin is death. The curse, therefore, is the death that is carried about concealed even in the most attractive sin. "Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them."

[pnattmbtc]

As Judge, God HAS to uphold the law! God's justice is only one of the issues that has to be addressed.

p:This is again speaking as if the law were something foreign to God Himself. Any law is but the extension of the mind and will of its creator. Why would you think that God would create a law that would require Him to kill someone in order to forgive us? What sense does that make?

G:I think I already answeered that question.

[teresaq]

The scriptural idea of justice is not one of retributive justice which is at odds with mercy, causing God a conflict which must be met by His killing His son, but one of restorative justice which is manifest by mercy and compassion. Christ made this abundantly clear by His life and teachings. What did He teach we should do when wronged? Insist upon a debt being paid? No. He taught that we should freely forgive. He taught our forgiveness should be like that which we have received. How did Christ forgive? He forgave freely. We see this clearly with the paralytic and the woman caught in adultery. He didn't insist that a debt be paid, but freely forgave.....

[fccool]

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I don't think you've considered it. I've pointed out several times that the law is not self-existent, but reflects the mind and will of its creator. It doesn't seem to me that you've responded to this point.

Paul kind of saying similar thing in Romans 5

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The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

This is somewhat a difficult verse to understand for people who demand justice from God, or who view God who absolutely has to penalize people for their past sins if they turn and repent.

We tend to forget that breaking the natural law has a penalty of its own. If I jump from the roof, I'll pay a penalty of falling down and hurting myself. The natural death is a penalty and result from sin.

"For the wages of sin is death"

... means exactly that. Sin results in death, not because God strikes down the sinners, but because sinners bring it down on their own selves and die. God simply does not support life anymore.

So, the only way to purify our race from sin is to separate the righteous... those who are willing to be changed, from unrighteous... those who are not willing to be changed, and would rather choose sin, thus choosing death. Those who say... I'd rather die than see it God's way.

[teresaq]

to add a thought we always speak of the "law" as some kind of rules and regulations that have little relation to caring about our fellowman and God...

"dont steal", for example, we dont tend to think of it as caring for our fellowman and his rights...i dont think we meditate as much on the law as david did, see how deep each goes. not just not taking that dollar laying on my neighbors table cause the law says not to, obeying some rule, but because i respect and care about my neighbor-even if he has a million more and im on the street penniless...

sorry, the thoughts presented trigger other thoughts in me...

[pnattmbtc]

A good point about the law. There are a lot of different ways of thinking about it.

For example, one could think of it as promises which God gives to us, as to what we'll be like if we have faith in Him.

One could consider it as a description of self-destructive behavior. Don't do these things, because they will destroy you!

One could consider it as a description of what it means to love God and love your neighbor, along the lines of what you mentioned. Not stealing involves more than simply not taking that which belongs to another, but involves caring for him, as you pointed out. Neglect is a form of disobedience.

[teresaq]

all-comprehensive. thanks for adding.

i know that when i do happen to do something for someone from a pure heart i do feel so good. it "adds" life. and i can feel life being taken from me with certain thoughts and actions...

not all the time with the second, but for brief seconds my "eyes are opened"...but always when doing from a pure heart...

[Gerr]

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Anyone who's studied the history can verify this is the case. If someone had had this idea, they would have written it. Nobody did until the 11th century. The Eastern Orthodox church split off from the Roman Catholic church before this idea was articulated. The STILL don't have this idea.

Ver. 13. “Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree.”82

In reality, the people were subject to another curse, which says, “Cursed is every one that continueth not in the things that are written in the book of the Law.” (Deut. xxvii: 26) To this curse, I say, people were subject, for no man had continued in, or was a keeper of, the whole Law; but Christ exchanged this curse for the other, “Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree.” As then both he who hanged on a tree, and he who transgresses the Law, is cursed, and as it was necessary for him who is about to relieve from a curse himself to be free from it, but to receive another instead of it, therefore Christ took opon Him such another, and thereby relieved us from the curse. It was like an innocent man’s undertaking to die for another sentenced to death, and so rescuing him from punishment. For Christ took upon Him not the curse of transgression, but the other curse, in order to remove that of others. For, “He had done no violence neither was any deceit in His mouth.” (Isa. liii: 9; 1 Peter ii: 22) And as by dying He rescued from death those who were dying, so by taking upon Himself the curse, He delivered them from it.Schaff, P. (1997). The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers Vol. XIII. Chrysostom: Homilies on Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, Thessalonians, Timothy, Titus, and Philemon. (27). Oak Harbor: Logos Research Systems.

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It's not an idea in the original text. It's an idea read into the text based on Western ideas of justice.

Was Chrysostom wrong?

[Gerr]

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It's not an idea in the original text. It's an idea read into the text based on Western ideas of justice.

Penal substitution, as I understand it, means that someone else is penalised for one's own transgressions. Do you have another definition? Paul states unequivocally that Someone took the curse, the penalty, in MY place! This is NOT an 11th century concept per the Wikipedia:

Penal substitution is a theory of the atonement within Christian theology, especially associated with the Reformed tradition. It argues that Christ, by his own sacrificial choice, was punished (penalised) in the place of sinners (substitution), thus satisfying the demands of justice so God can justly forgive the sins. It is thus a specific understanding of substitutionary atonement, where the substitutionary nature of Jesus' death is understood in the sense of a substitutionary punishment. Early church fathers that have expressed this notion of penal substitution are: Justin Martyr c.100-165, Eusebius of Caesarea c.275-339 , and Augustine of Hippo 354-430.[1].

[Gerr]

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The scriptural idea of justice is not one of retributive justice which is at odds with mercy, causing God a conflict which must be met by His killing His son, but one of restorative justice which is manifest by mercy and compassion. Christ made this abundantly clear by His life and teachings. What did He teach we should do when wronged? Insist upon a debt being paid? No. He taught that we should freely forgive. He taught our forgiveness should be like that which we have received. How did Christ forgive? He forgave freely. We see this clearly with the paralytic and the woman caught in adultery. He didn't insist that a debt be paid, but freely forgave.

I see in Scripture TWO kinds of justice advocated. 1) Civil justice which is mainly retributive. You can find this in Dt 19:15-21 - the lex talionis. 2) Personal justice - go the second mile, turn the other cheek. This IS restorative. "Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should RESTORE him in a spirit of gentleness." Gal 6:1 ESV.

We would have chaos if civil gov'ts practiced #2. Those who have no scruples would take whatever they want and do whatever they want without fear of RETRIBUTION. Therefore civil gov'ts have to dispense justice/punishment that fit the crime.

[Nic Samojluk]

But there is an inborn abstract concept in all of us that when a debt is incurred, it must be paid. That wrongs done must be made right. Justice must be done. Hence the demands of the law must be satisfied.

[Gerr]

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What is the problem that man has? It is a legal one, or a relational one? It's a relational one. Man does not know God's character.

Of course, he has BOTH problems!!! He broke the law - the legal aspect. He also broke a heart - the relational one. Yes, man was deceived, but A&E were not totally ignorant of God's character. Lucifer had the same two problems. You cannot fix one without fixing the other. Can you fix the relational aspect while the guilty party CONTINUES to flout the law? And can you make anyone obey the law without fixing the relational part? Impossible!

[Gerr]

Salvation has issues that go beyond just forgiveness.

How can God be merciful and be just at the same time? How can He forgive and still uphold the authority of the law?

[Nic Samojluk]

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But there is an inborn abstract concept in all of us that when a debt is incurred, it must be paid. That wrongs done must be made right. Justice must be done. Hence the demands of the law must be satisfied.

This doesn't make sense. The first part does, but not the second. That is, that there is an inborn abstract concept in all of us that when a debt is incurred, it must be paid. Yes, we have this concept, but it's wrong! This is what Jesus strove to show in so many ways. *We* view that debts have to be paid to make things right, but *God* doesn't!

You are concluding that "the demands of the law must be satisfied" because "there is an inborn abstract concept in all of us that when a debt is incurred, it must be paid." This doesn't follow. That we have a certain concept doesn't necessitate anything in regards to the law. How could it?

Excellent answer!