Present doctrine of atonement fallacies

[Gerr]

It is vital how we view God's dealing with the sin problem. If we see Him as just getting us off the legal hook (because the problem is a legal one and transgression registered on the books is the issue,) that will produce a very shallow theology. If we see Him as changing us from the inside out because our characters are the problem, that will produce a deep theology and a heartfelt need for repentance, reconciliation, submission, reformation, and total transformation.

Is there anyone who IS advocating ONLY the legal/forensic view of the plan of salvation? I have repeatedly stated that the Bible presents several illustrative models on the Plan of Salvation because EACH one has truths to present, but that at some point, each one has a weakness or a breaking point.

If you read my discussion with pnat, you will see that we covered the relational and the legal aspect of salvation. That one cannot fix one problem without fixing the other. One cannot have good relation without reconciliation. And there can be no reconcilation without resolution of the cause of estrangement in the first place. And there can be no resolution of the estrangement without transformation. And there can be no transformation without repentance.

[karl]

Let me rephrase the question.

How can a loving Judge uphold the law that demands the life of the transgressor? If He does not enforce the law , he has just invalidated it. Anarchy!!! If the Judge allows the transgressor to go scot free without penalties on ANYONE'S part, then He must also let Satan back in. What does that say about the character of the Judge?

There are some of us who believe that the sinner DOES forfeit his life. His spiritual life actually dies when he sins and it is only by a transfusion of spiritual life from Christ that he is saved from being spiritually dead for eternity. We believe that the final "punishment" or "reward" is simply God ratifying for eternity what has already happened - whether we will remain grafted into life or whether we have persistently refused the life of Christ and so we remain spiritually dead and ultimately physically dead for eternity.

[Gerr]

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Yes, indeed! The parable of the two debtors illustrates this quite clearly. The first debtor was firgiven his enormous debt, but there was an unspecified condition. He was expected to treat others the way he had been treated. When he failed in doing this, the forgiveness was cancelled and he was placed in jail and the requirement that he pay his debt was reinstated.

I think there is something about forgiveness that we are forgetting. It is NOT just cancellation of the debt. There IS a loss AND payment. The loss/payment is born by the forgiver. This loss/payment was shown at the Cross. This loss/payment the forgiven debtor of an unpayable amount was not willing to extend to his own debtor of a small amount.

[Gerr]

Whether you call it transfusion, infusion, grafting, heart transplation, there any number of metaphors that can be used. Eating the flesh, drinking the blood, putting on Christ, heart circumcision, to turn around, they all describe a fundamental change that takes place when a rebel becomes a citizen of the heavenly kingdom.

[karl]

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Yes, indeed! The parable of the two debtors illustrates this quite clearly. The first debtor was firgiven his enormous debt, but there was an unspecified condition. He was expected to treat others the way he had been treated. When he failed in doing this, the forgiveness was cancelled and he was placed in jail and the requirement that he pay his debt was reinstated.

I think there is something about forgiveness that we are forgetting. It is NOT just cancellation of the debt. There IS a loss AND payment. The loss/payment is born by the forgiver. This loss/payment was shown at the Cross. This loss/payment the forgiven debtor of an unpayable amount was not willing to extend to his own debtor of a small amount.

The transaction to which you allude above is so strange as to be incomprehensible to some of us who have spent a LONG time considering it.

Let's see: You owe your life to God and so Christ gives His life to earn forgiveness of your debt to God. A problem with this is that Christ is God and doesn't need to be bought off by Himself. Another problem is that everybody owes their life to Christ (by virtue of His being their Creator) BEFORE they ever sin.

Question: After Christ pays Himself off for the debt humans owe, do they no longer owe Him their lives?

Muddy. The Gospel needs to be clearer than this.

[Gerr]

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Muddy. The Gospel needs to be clearer than this.

It gets muddy when we do no accept what Scripture says!!! And then try to rationalize that what it says is not what it means!!!

Did man sin? Did he incur a debt? Is there a penalty to sin? Who alone can pay the penalty? Does the debt need to be paid/blotted out? Does sin cause estrangement? And need reconciliation? How?

Now let's see YOU make the gospel REAL simple, so a 5 yo can understand!!!

[Gerr]

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The transaction to which you allude above is so strange as to be incomprehensible to some of us who have spent a LONG time considering it.

Forgiveness is not just saying to the debtor/transgressor: You're forgiven. Forget what happened. It COSTS something. The forgiver bears the loss!!! That's not so complicated is it?

[Gerr]

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Question: After Christ pays Himself off for the debt humans owe, do they no longer owe Him their lives?

Is man self-existent?

[karl]

Did man sin? Did he incur a debt? Is there a penalty to sin? Who alone can pay the penalty? Does the debt need to be paid/blotted out? Does sin cause estrangement? And need reconciliation? How?

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

God did not need to be reconciled to man. He did not need to be appeased or bought off. God already loved man and was giving Himself to man. Man needed to be reconciled to God and receive God. Therefore Christ was lifted up, as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, that everyone's attention would be drawn to Him, because He IS the Life, the Truth, the Way.

There was and are consequences to sin. Man has been suffering these, including spiritual death. Only those who have a saving belief in Christ are born again (enter into life.) As they remain grafted into Christ, they enjoy life more and more abundantly.

It really is quite simple. No God = no life. Know God = know life. Those who are finally and eternally destroyed will hear from the lips of their Savior, "Depart from me... I never knew you."

[Gerr]

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God did not need to be reconciled to man. He did not need to be appeased or bought off. God already loved man and was giving Himself to man. Man needed to be reconciled to God and receive God. Therefore Christ was lifted up, as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, that everyone's attention would be drawn to Him, because He IS the Life, the Truth, the Way.

God is a just judge, And God is angry with the wicked every day. Ps 7:11 NKJ

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth - Rom 1:18 ESV

What do you do to to quiet anger/wrath?

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It really is quite simple. No God = no life. Know God = know life. Those who are finally and eternally destroyed will hear from the lips of their Savior, "Depart from me... I never knew you."

The basic framework IS very simple. To the jailer's query, what must I do to be saved? Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved...." What we have been discussing in this thread is HOW this actually happens. And if it's REALLY THAT SIMPLE, what's there to study for eons to come? And why are the mighty angelic intelligences so fascinated by it if it's THAT simple?

[pnattmbtc]

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Overblown by some? Yes! Underblown by others? Of course. What would be the correct percentage of material which was borrowed by her: 10? 30? 60?

Please take a look at the link I provided. It's WAYYYY overblown.

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Does it really matter which figure is correct?

Yes, of course it matters. It were anything anywhere close to 10%, let alone 30% or 60%, that would be a problem. She wrote over 100,000 pages. That would mean 10,000 or 30,000 or 60,000 pages borrowed.

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The fact remains that we were led to believe for decades that there was no such dependence on other authors. Now we do know that this was in error.

I think this is overblown too. Please start another topic if you wish to discuss this.

[Gerr]

I think your comments should be directed to Nic?

[pnattmbtc]

Let me rephrase the question.

How can a loving Judge uphold the law that demands the life of the transgressor?

[pnattmbtc]

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Is there anyone who IS advocating ONLY the legal/forensic view of the plan of salvation? I have repeatedly stated that the Bible presents several illustrative models on the Plan of Salvation because EACH one has truths to present, but that at some point, each one has a weakness or a breaking point.

This point has been addressed.

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If you read my discussion with pnat, you will see that we covered the relational and the legal aspect of salvation. That one cannot fix one problem without fixing the other.

Hence the penal idea is superfluous. If the sinner dies because because the natural consequence of sin is death, there's no need for a legal demand for him to do so, and the whole idea of paying a penalty in his stead to prevent this from happening doesn't make sense.

The problem is that the penal idea is contradictory to the relational idea. If the relational idea is true, you don't need the penal idea.

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One cannot have good relation without reconciliation. And there can be no reconcilation without resolution of the cause of estrangement in the first place. And there can be no resolution of the estrangement without transformation. And there can be no transformation without repentance.

Right! And what was the cause of estrangement? It was believing the lies of the enemy in regards to God's character. This is how Satan deceived angels and man. The whole purpose of Christ's ministry was the revelation of God, to correct these deceptions, that man might be set right and kept right with God.

[pnattmbtc]

It gets muddy when we do no accept what Scripture says!!!

[pnattmbtc]

Yes, I don't know how that happened. I was quoting Nic, but somehow it got titled as responding to Gerry. Again, not sure how, but sorry for the confusion.

[Gerr]

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The whole problem is with the assumption here. You appear to be thinking that death comes as the result of the demands of the law. Since the law is simply an extension of the mind and will of God, this is tantamount to saying that God demands that those who break the law should die. But if sin causes death, there would be no point in such a demand.

That is, if sin results in death (not arbitrarily, but as a natural consequence), then there is absolutely no necessity for God to demand that those who sin should die. They die anyway! As a natural consequence.

Are you saying that sin does not have to be punished because it naturally ends in death anyway?

Don't you think there's a difference between me drinking poison in which case I would die as a natural result, and me making another person drink it?

[Gerr]

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He enforces the law by allowing those who sin to die.

That's not an issue for the lost. They pay for their own transgressions. The issue is with sinners who are taken back into good graces without penalties. If God can do that for them, then there should be NO penalties for Satan & his followers either for breaking the same law.

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The penalties aren't arbitrary, but are the natural consequence of sin.

Again, is punishment a natural consequence? It is ONE thing to cut oneself off from the Source of Life; it is quite ANOTHER to cut someone else's life from the Source of Life.

Here's an explanation from Fifield regarding how the death of Christ upholds the law:

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If the governor of a State should indiscriminately pardon all offenses against the law, it would absolutely abolish all restraint of law. The motive in his mind might be love, but the love would be so unwisely and imprudently manifested that it would lead to anarchy and misery. The same is true of the Governor of the universe. His love and his wisdom are one. His pardoning power must be so exercised in “wisdom and prudence” as to lead men to unity and joy, and not to anarchy and misery, else it is not love...

Sin is secession from the government of God. Satan seceded, and sought to exalt his throne above that of God. Sinners are those who have joined themselves to Satan’s forces in the secession. God, in infinite love, sends his own and only Son to put down the rebellion. He cannot pardon those who are still in rebellion, for this would but justify the rebellion and dishonor the law, and so perpetuate and multiply the misery. But through Jesus this rebellion is finally to be put down entirely. “The seed of the woman shall bruise the serpent’s head.” O’er every hilltop of earth and heaven, where for a short time there has waved the black standard of the man of sin, there shall forever float the white pennon of the Prince of Peace.

Every one who lays down his arms and surrenders his opposing will to God has the promise of pardon. This pardon God can grant, and not dishonor his law. Yea, more, it is through this pardon that the mercy and love of God’s law and government are revealed, -- a love that only commanded the right way, not to be arbitrary and domineering, but that men might be happy, -- a love what when men repent of the wrong, and turn back their hearts toward the broken law, is ever willing to forgive the past and give power for future obedience. It is thus that God can be just, and still the justifier of those who believe on Jesus. It is thus that faith in Jesus exalts the law of God to the highest heavens, and established it forever.

The cross of Calvary, to the whole universe of intelligent beings, is the greatest demonstration that ever has been or ever can be given that God’s law is eternal and universal, and yet that his love is infinity; reaching down with tender, fatherly longing to life up the lowest transgressor. In fact, his love is his law, and the law is unchangeable because his love is from everlasting to everlasting. When men behold this, they are led to repent of past transgressions, and to pray for power for future obedience. It is thus that Christ is exalted to be a Prince and a Saviour, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. It is thus that the atonement is made, and rebellious men are led back into unity with God and with one another. (George Fifield; "God is Love")

Beautiful, but there's something missing here as I see it. Sinner taken back just because he says, "I'm sorry?" Furthermore, even AFTER he says, "I'm sorry," he is still MISSING THE MARK! AND NO PENALTIES!!! That invalidates the law, not uphold it. That results in anarchy! If I were the devil, I would scream, "FOUL!!!"

[Gerr]

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Reconciliation comes about as we behold, believe, and respond to the truth revealed by Christ.

And what is this truth revealed by Christ?

As I see it, in order for reconciliation to take place, there are some issues to be dealt with:

1) The insulted party who is "angry with the wicked...." Ps 7:11 KJV, whose anger/wrath "is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness,.." Rom 1:18 NIV, "who are of purer eyes than to see evil and cannot look at wrong,..."Hab 1:13 ESV.

2) The guilty party, whose " heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?" Jer 17:9 .

3) The offense or cause for the offense.

[teresaq]

Beautiful, but there's something missing here as I see it. Sinner taken back just because he says, "I'm sorry?" Furthermore, even AFTER he says, "I'm sorry," he is still MISSING THE MARK! AND NO PENALTIES!!! That invalidates the law, not uphold it. That results in anarchy! If I were the devil, I would scream, "FOUL!!!"

no.

sinner taken back because he has been changed.

i cant let an unrepentant murderer into my home, but i can let a repentant murderer into my home...i dont have to kill him or someone else to do so.

[Gerr]

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no.

sinner taken back because he has been changed.

So the change is what saves him? The change is what satisfies the demands of the broken law?

[Lutz13]

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God is a just judge, And God is angry with the wicked every day. Ps 7:11 NKJ

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth - Rom 1:18 ESV

What do you do to to quiet anger/wrath?

You should probably keep on reading. When you have a disobedient child that is old enough to make up their own mind, what is the loving thing to do? Let them go their own way, even if it leads to destruction. That is what the wrath of God is.

God is the cure to sin, and by refusing that cure the inevitable result is death. He can't force it on us.

It is very important to understand Gods wrath, just like Jesus on the cross suffered from it, "why have You forsaken me"...

If God is love then according to Paul He keeps no record of wrong doing...

[Gerr]

Result, penalty, punishment. Any difference?

[pnattmbtc]

Reconciliation comes about as we behold, believe, and respond to the truth revealed by Christ.

Gerry:And what is this truth revealed by Christ?

[pnattmbtc]

p:The whole problem is with the assumption here. You appear to be thinking that death comes as the result of the demands of the law. Since the law is simply an extension of the mind and will of God, this is tantamount to saying that God demands that those who break the law should die. But if sin causes death, there would be no point in such a demand.

That is, if sin results in death (not arbitrarily, but as a natural consequence), then there is absolutely no necessity for God to demand that those who sin should die. They die anyway! As a natural consequence.

G:Are you saying that sin does not have to be punished because it naturally ends in death anyway?