Present doctrine of atonement fallacies

[pnattmbtc]

You should probably keep on reading. When you have a disobedient child that is old enough to make up their own mind, what is the loving thing to do? Let them go their own way, even if it leads to destruction. That is what the wrath of God is.

God is the cure to sin, and by refusing that cure the inevitable result is death. He can't force it on us.

It is very important to understand Gods wrath, just like Jesus on the cross suffered from it, "why have You forsaken me"...

If God is love then according to Paul He keeps no record of wrong doing...

Good points! The last one is especially interesting. If God doesn't keep a record of wrong doing, then why do the wicked die in the judgment? That's an interesting question to consider.

[teresaq]

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no.

sinner taken back because he has been changed.

So the change is what saves him? The change is what satisfies the demands of the broken law?

all satan had to do was repent...

Eze 18:30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.

Eze 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Eze 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

Eze 33:10 Therefore, O thou son of man, speak unto the house of Israel; Thus ye speak, saying, If our transgressions and our sins be upon us, and we pine away in them, how should we then live?

Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

Mat 19:17... but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Mat 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

Mat 19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Mat 19:20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?

Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

Mat 19:22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

[pnattmbtc]

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all satan had to do was repent...

True. The SOP tells us

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God in His great mercy bore long with Lucifer. He was not immediately degraded from his exalted station when he first indulged the spirit of discontent, nor even when he began to present his false claims before the loyal angels. Long was he retained in heaven. Again and again he was offered pardon on condition of repentance and submission. (GC 495)

This is without Christ's having died, nor having to die. If Lucifer had simply repented, he would have been forgiven.

One might ask why, then, was it necessary for Christ to die in our case?

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The life of Christ was not the price paid to the father for our pardon; but the life was the price which the Father paid to so manifest his loving power as to bring us to that repentant attitude of mind where he could pardon us freely. (George Fifield; "God is Love")

Satan knew God's character and love, but man did not:

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Understanding the character of God, knowing His goodness, Satan chose to follow his own selfish, independent will. This choice was final. There was no more that God could do to save him. But man was deceived; his mind was darkened by Satan's sophistry. The height and depth of the love of God he did not know. For him there was hope in a knowledge of God's love. By beholding His character he might be drawn back to God. (DA 762)

Since Lucifer already knew God's love and character, all that remained for him was to repent. There was no need to educate him regarding God's love and character, because he already knew.

However, man had been deceived. Man did not know God's love and character. It was necessary for these to be revealed, which Christ did. This was the "whole purpose" of His mission: the revelation of God, to set and keep man right with God.

[pnattmbtc]

The above post is looking at things from the point of view of the SOP. One can consider this simply from Scripture. Let's consider the mission of Christ as He presented it in His life and teachings. Was it not the revelation of God?

John says, "No one has seen God at any time. God's only son, who knew Him best, has shown us what God is really like." (CEV, from memory)

The theme of Christ's mission as the revelation of God is all throughout John's gospel. Where is there even a hint of the penal substitution idea in anything John wrote?

[karl]

I didn't say it wasn't elegant nor did I say it isn't mind-blowing. But it is very simple that God gives us His life. He did it in creation and He does it in re-creation (new birth.)

Simple, but inexhaustible as a subject for study. It will be our study throughout eternity because the study of this principle of selfless love is what will keep the universe safe from another rebellion.

[Gerr]

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It's rather odd to join little snippets of three different verses from three different parts of the Bible like this. What's the point?

The point? The Bible uses the strongest possible negative human emotion to describe God's displeasure with sin. That has to be, as the Bible describes it, "propitiated." As I see it, that's one of the concepts that comes across in the propitiatory atonement sacrifice illustrations.

[pnattmbtc]

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The point? The Bible uses the strongest possible negative human emotion to describe God's displeasure with sin.

Of course God hates sin. It kills His creatures, whom He loves. How would a mother feel about heroin, if it killed her son?

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That has to be, as the Bible describes it, "propitiated." As I see it, that's one of the concepts that comes across in the propitiatory atonement sacrifice illustrations.

Here's Waggoner regarding "propitiation":

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A Propitiation. A propitiation is a sacrifice. The statement then is simply that Christ is set forth to be a sacrifice for the remission of our sins. "Once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself." Heb. 9:26. Of course the idea of a propitiation or sacrifice is that there is wrath to be appeased. But take particular notice that it is we who require the sacrifice, and not God. He provides the sacrifice. The idea that God's wrath has to be propitiated in order that we may have forgiveness finds no warrant in the Bible.

It is the height of absurdity to say that God is so angry with men that he will not forgive them unless something is provided to appease his wrath, and that therefore he himself offers the gift to himself, by which he is appeased.0 "And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled in the body of his flesh through death." Col. 1:21, 22.

Heathen and Christian Propitiation. The Christian idea of propitiation is that set forth above. The heathen idea, which is too often held by professed Christians, is that men must provide a sacrifice to appease the wrath of their god. All heathen worship is simply a bribe to their gods to be favourable to them. If they thought that their gods were very angry with them, they would provide a greater sacrifice, and so human sacrifices were offered in extreme cases. They thought, as the worshipers of Siva in India do to-day, that their god was gratified by the sight of blood.

The persecution that was carried on in so-called Christian countries in times past and is to some extent even now, is but the outcropping of this heathen idea of propitiation. Ecclesiastical leaders imagine that salvation is by works and that men by works can atone for sin, and so they offer the one whom they think rebellious as a sacrifice to their god not to the true God, because he is not pleased with such sacrifices. (Waggoner on Romans)

[Nic Samojluk]

How can a loving Judge uphold the law that demands the life of the transgressor? If He does not enforce the law , he has just invalidated it. Anarchy!!! If the Judge allows the transgressor to go scot free without penalties on ANYONE'S part, then He must also let Satan back in. What does that say about the character of the Judge?

A few years ago there was a woman on death row waiting to be executed. She became a Christian while in jail and she turned to be a model of good behavior which was demonstrated throughout the many years while the process of never ending legal appeals were exhausted. Finally the day came and to the horror of those who watched the news she was finally executed. If you were God, would you have pulled the trigger? Would society be a better place by killing a saint who once had once been a sinner?

[karl]

The idea that God's wrath has to be propitiated in order that we may have forgiveness finds no warrant in the Bible.

It is the height of absurdity to say that God is so angry with men that he will not forgive them unless something is provided to appease his wrath, and that therefore he himself offers the gift to himself, by which he is appeased.

AMEN!

[Nic Samojluk]

Now let's see YOU make the gospel REAL simple, so a 5 you can understand!!!

“My dear Johnny, you just did an evil did, but I can see that you are sorry for what you did. I have decided to forgive you the wrong you have done. Let’s pray and ask God to help you do better next time. We will not kill anybody to make things right.”

I believe that a five-year-old boy would understand this kind of a Gospel. Forgiveness is a gift of love, and gifts do not have to be paid for. Nobody offering a gift demands payment for it.

[Nic Samojluk]

Forgiveness is not just saying to the debtor/transgressor: You're forgiven. Forget what happened. It COSTS something. The forgiver bears the loss!!! That's not so complicated is it?

Let’s suppose that Johnny, who is five years old, is playing with matches and the house goes out in flames. His dad has suffered a terrible loss. Johnny is very sorry and has determined that playing with matches is not a good idea. He has made up his mind that he will never make such a terrible mistake again. Would society be safer if the father decides to kill Johnny’s innocent brother to make things right?

[karl]

Nobody offering a gift demands payment for it.

The person offering the gift is representing that He is the giver of it, but he is making no statement about how it was obtained. Our problem comes from our forgetting that God is the provider and sustainer of all. There is nothing that exists, apart from evil, which does not come originally from Him. The legal argument fails when we realize that God doesn't buy the gift from anybody. He simply provides it, like He does everything else in the universe.

Here. This is for you. I made it just for you and I want you to have it. I love you. Please take it.

[Nic Samojluk]

God is a just judge, And God is angry with the wicked every day. Ps 7:11 NKJ

[Nic Samojluk]

Please take a look at the link I provided. It's WAYYYY overblown.

[Nic Samojluk]

Originally Posted By: Gerry

Let me rephrase the question.

How can a loving Judge uphold the law that demands the life of the transgressor?

The whole problem is with the assumption here. You appear to be thinking that death comes as the result of the demands of the law. Since the law is simply an extension of the mind and will of God, this is tantamount to saying that God demands that those who break the law should die. But if sin causes death, there would be no point in such a demand.

That is, if sin results in death (not arbitrarily, but as a natural consequence), then there is absolutely no necessity for God to demand that those who sin should die. They die anyway! As a natural consequence.

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If He does not enforce the law , he has just invalidated it.

He enforces the law by allowing those who sin to die. He couldn't do so at the beginning because His actions would have been misunderstood.

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At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. (DA 764)

Had God allowed Satan and his followers to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished, because death is the inevitable result of sin. But had God done this before the cross, this would not have been understood.

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Anarchy!!! If the Judge allows the transgressor to go scot free without penalties on ANYONE'S part, then He must also let Satan back in. What does that say about the character of the Judge?

The penalties aren't arbitrary, but are the natural consequence of sin.

Here's an explanation from Fifield regarding how the death of Christ upholds the law:

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If the governor of a State should indiscriminately pardon all offenses against the law, it would absolutely abolish all restraint of law. The motive in his mind might be love, but the love would be so unwisely and imprudently manifested that it would lead to anarchy and misery. The same is true of the Governor of the universe. His love and his wisdom are one. His pardoning power must be so exercised in “wisdom and prudence” as to lead men to unity and joy, and not to anarchy and misery, else it is not love...

Sin is secession from the government of God. Satan seceded, and sought to exalt his throne above that of God. Sinners are those who have joined themselves to Satan’s forces in the secession. God, in infinite love, sends his own and only Son to put down the rebellion. He cannot pardon those who are still in rebellion, for this would but justify the rebellion and dishonor the law, and so perpetuate and multiply the misery. But through Jesus this rebellion is finally to be put down entirely. “The seed of the woman shall bruise the serpent’s head.” O’er every hilltop of earth and heaven, where for a short time there has waved the black standard of the man of sin, there shall forever float the white pennon of the Prince of Peace.

Every one who lays down his arms and surrenders his opposing will to God has the promise of pardon. This pardon God can grant, and not dishonor his law. Yea, more, it is through this pardon that the mercy and love of God’s law and government are revealed, -- a love that only commanded the right way, not to be arbitrary and domineering, but that men might be happy, -- a love what when men repent of the wrong, and turn back their hearts toward the broken law, is ever willing to forgive the past and give power for future obedience. It is thus that God can be just, and still the justifier of those who believe on Jesus. It is thus that faith in Jesus exalts the law of God to the highest heavens, and established it forever.

The cross of Calvary, to the whole universe of intelligent beings, is the greatest demonstration that ever has been or ever can be given that God’s law is eternal and universal, and yet that his love is infinity; reaching down with tender, fatherly longing to life up the lowest transgressor. In fact, his love is his law, and the law is unchangeable because his love is from everlasting to everlasting. When men behold this, they are led to repent of past transgressions, and to pray for power for future obedience. It is thus that Christ is exalted to be a Prince and a Saviour, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. It is thus that the atonement is made, and rebellious men are led back into unity with God and with one another. (George Fifield; "God is Love")

Great post!. God's plan is to destroy those who are still in rebellion against him. It makes no sense to also destroy those who are no longer in rebellion.

[Nic Samojluk]

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Is there anyone who IS advocating ONLY the legal/forensic view of the plan of salvation? I have repeatedly stated that the Bible presents several illustrative models on the Plan of Salvation because EACH one has truths to present, but that at some point, each one has a weakness or a breaking point.

This point has been addressed.

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If you read my discussion with pnat, you will see that we covered the relational and the legal aspect of salvation. That one cannot fix one problem without fixing the other.

Hence the penal idea is superfluous. If the sinner dies because because the natural consequence of sin is death, there's no need for a legal demand for him to do so, and the whole idea of paying a penalty in his stead to prevent this from happening doesn't make sense.

The problem is that the penal idea is contradictory to the relational idea. If the relational idea is true, you don't need the penal idea.

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One cannot have good relation without reconciliation. And there can be no reconcilation without resolution of the cause of estrangement in the first place. And there can be no resolution of the estrangement without transformation. And there can be no transformation without repentance.

Right! And what was the cause of estrangement? It was believing the lies of the enemy in regards to God's character. This is how Satan deceived angels and man. The whole purpose of Christ's ministry was the revelation of God, to correct these deceptions, that man might be set right and kept right with God.

Your explanation makes a lot of sense to me!

[Nic Samojluk]

Are you saying that sin does not have to be punished because it naturally ends in death anyway?

Don't you think there's a difference between me drinking poison in which case I would die as a natural result, and me making another person drink it?

Good question! Human justice demands retribution. Divine justice is based on a solution to rebellion. If a rebel has been transformed into an ally, the problem has been solved and there is no longer a penalty to be sought.

The Father of the prodigal son did not seek human justice but rather divine justice. The son who had originally been a rebel was transformed by his experience and by the memory of his loving dad. There was no need to kill an innocent brother

of the repentant son.

[Gerr]

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The poison causes the death. Sin is the poison which causes are death.

So if death is JUST the NATURAL result of sin/poison without ANY further penalties, the more poison I take, i.e. the more I sin, the quicker I should die? Therefore, Satan should perish the quickest?

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Another can't make us sin, right?

And so Lucifer had no culpability in the sin of A & E & the rest of their posterity?

"but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea." Mt 18:6 ESV

[Gerr]

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Good question! Human justice demands retribution. Divine justice is based on a solution to rebellion. If a rebel has been transformed into an ally, the problem has been solved and there is no longer a penalty to be sought.

And there is NO retribution in God's justice system? So then, Christ's death was not absolutely necessary after all? A charade?

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The Father of the prodigal son did not seek human justice but rather divine justice. The son who had originally been a rebel was transformed by his experience and by the memory of his loving dad. There was no need to kill an innocent brother

of the repentant son.

And the parable of the prodigal son explains the whole plan of salvation?

[teresaq]

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The poison causes the death. Sin is the poison which causes are death.

So if death is JUST the NATURAL result of sin/poison without ANY further penalties, the more poison I take, i.e. the more I sin, the quicker I should die? Therefore, Satan should perish the quickest?

[Gerr]

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It is very important to understand Gods wrath, just like Jesus on the cross suffered from it, "why have You forsaken me"...

If God is love then according to Paul He keeps no record of wrong doing...

If your interpretation of what Paul said is what he meant, is he then contradicting what another inspired writer said?

"And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done" Rev 20:12 ESV.

"....the court sat in judgment, and the books were opened." Dan 7:10 ESV.

[Gerr]

NO ONE FORCED A&E to sin, but don't you think that we CAN cause someone to sin?

[pnattmbtc]

p:Please take a look at the link I provided. It's WAYYYY overblown.

Nic:Do you base this on the opinion of only one expert?

[teresaq]

maybe you are reading too fast. you seem to have missed the statement after the question...

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are you saying satan forced adam and eve to sin? there is a difference between leading someone into sin and forcing/making them to actually sin.

[Gerr]

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all satan had to do was repent...

If that is ALL that sinners have to do to be forgiven/reconciled, why then did Jesus have to die? If there was some way to avoid it, would not the God of heaven who hates suffering and death found a way to avoid it?