Why are we being told to stay away from _______________?

[abelisle]

In Elder Ted Wilson's sermon, he said that we shouldn't succumb to the following items:

http://www.spectrummagazine.org/blog/2010/07/03/text_ted_wilsons_sermon_go_forward

". . . contemplative prayer, centering prayer and the emerging church movement . . ."

Also what were those "complicated time charts" he mentioned. I immediately thought of the ones we use in Daniel and Revelation Seminars?

Another thing - how does one determine what are "Christ-centered, Bible-based worship and music practices"?

He said that the 1st items (types of prayer stemming from mysticism and are promoted in the emerging church movement)we should stay away from.

Can someone be more specific about why these are dangerous for Adventists?

Lastly, how will our "black" churches interpret and deal with the admonition about worship and music?

Alex (trying to keep an open mind about all of this)

[olger]

We are being advised to stay away from the emerging church because it is devouring lives AND churches, Alex. I recently was asked to conduct a study into the emerging movement, and it was revealing. Dr. Jovan Markovic has recently conducted a very helpful study by attending emerging meetings for 4-years and reading their books. Dr. Markovic was very balanced in his presentation, and very concerned about the Roman Catholic (yes Roman catholic) mysticism that is distancing people from Biblical faith as a result of the emerging movement. I just finished a book that you may like (or not). "Why I'm not Emergent - by two guys who should be." Wow.

I know you are tight with Samir, and he probably has some good points, but the dangers that is emerging in this movement is an Omega sized monster. Enter at your own peril.

As I discussed with the president of Bogenhoffen yesterday, the Green Movement and the Emerging Movement is converging into the final spiritual showdown - and they are on the wrong spiritual side of Mount Carmel.

blessings,

g

[olger]

Lyrics from Bob Dylan:

Ring them bells, ye heathen

From the city that dreams

Ring them bells from the sanctuaries

’Cross the valleys and streams

For they’re deep and they’re wide

And the world’s on its side

And time is running backwards

And so is the bride

Ring them bells St. Peter

Where the four winds blow

Ring them bells with an iron hand

So the people will know

Oh it’s rush hour now

On the wheel and the plow

And the sun is going down

Upon the sacred cow

[pnattmbtc]

He said that the 1st items (types of prayer stemming from mysticism and are promoted in the emerging church movement)we should stay away from.

Can someone be more specific about why these are dangerous for Adventists?

Mysticism isn't dependent upon doctrine. That is, there's nothing that ties mysticism to being and Adventist (or believing any other specific doctrine).

Any movement which would have doctrine be unimportant would be dangerous to the Adventist church, for reasons which should be obvious.

Regarding the question of how to determine what's Christ-centered and Biblical worship and music, the answer is from Scripture, of course. There are many principles which are given in Scripture which can be applied. Of course, there's an element of subjectivity to anything we do, so we need the Spirit's guidance to discern what's pleasing to God.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

He said that the 1st items (types of prayer stemming from mysticism and are promoted in the emerging church movement)we should stay away from.

that's because you're going down the Right-Hand path of witchcraft if you do get in to that...it's really no better than the Left-Hand path..

[D. Allan]

Some Adventists think that sermon pointed backwards instead of forwards.

Adventists prefer Bible study or discussion rather than any type of prayer - I've been to such "prayer meetings" where Bible study was sandwiched between several prayers.

And that is alright - after all - the reason there are so many church denominations makes it possible for everyone to find one that fits them.

[teresaq]

i would think the "complicated time charts" have to do with those who are pinpointing Christs coming--without stating the day and hour...when such and such happens then we have so many "days" til such and such---everything is timed. if i didnt make sense i can point you to at least one place its taught, but you have to go through their many bible studies to get to it...

as for their rest of your points, it seems to me the cons are going to believe they are following God and the libs are going to believe they are following God....

[SivartM]

Ugh... his comment about the emerging church was totally uncalled for, in my opinion.

Speaking of time charts, I saw that at the Adventist World Radio booth some concerned person had conspicuously dropped some pamphlets next to AWR's materials. They had something to do with how the SDA church would end in 2023 or something. I'm sure it was totally legit.

[Guest]

When is the truth ever uncalled for? What kind of person tries to squelch the truth?

Someone would have to be so confused as to believe evil is good, and good is evil.

It can be shown and proven what that movement is all about, to anyone who wants to know. It's not complicated, or hard to understand. But I guess one does need to at least be willing to look at the evidence.

[SivartM]

The "truth" is uncalled for when it's false. You're right that the truth about the emerging church is very simple. But alarmists are often too busy trying to panic people to worry about how things actually are. It's not much different from people who can't bring themselves to think that the Adventist church is not a cult, or that everyone but Adventists are not in a cult.

[Guest]

So what he said about the emergent church is false?

[olger]

The "truth" is uncalled for when it's false. You're right that the truth about the emerging church is very simple. But alarmists are often too busy trying to panic people to worry about how things actually are.

And how do you know what the "emerging church" thing is all about? You emphatically claim to have knowlege that it is a good movement. You also say you are only 17 years of age. How did you aquire all this experience? Have you devoted the last four years into studying the movement and attended their major meetings and interacted with the guiding thinkers of the movement like Dr. Jovan Markovic has? How is it that you know more about than he does? Pam (on here) has a working knowledge of witchcraft (having been delivered from it) and she has said that these "mysticisms" are right-hand of witchcraft. Do you know more than she?

If your father said it was bad would you automatically say it was good? What gives here?

regards,

g

[Dr. Shane]

I think some people are just reading way too much between the lines. I see no reason anything he said should even be controversial within our denomination.

[Jeannieb43]

What I don't understand is what the term "emergent" or "emerging" church means.

Could somebody please give a definition?

[John317]

This is from our President's Sabbath sermon. I agree with him. I think most SDAs throughout the world would agree.

Your thoughts?

Quote:

Go forward, not backward! Stand firm for God’s Word as it is literally read and understood. Of course, we must always humbly recognize that we are finite, fallen creatures observing the works of an infinite omnipotent God. There are things in both of God’s two great books of nature and Scripture that we do not fully comprehend. In fact, we are told that the sacrifice of Jesus will be “the science and the song of the redeemed throughout the ceaseless ages of eternity.” But that which the Lord in His mercy has given to us in clear language to be taken as fact simply because He said so must not be shrouded in skepticism. Don’t go backwards to misinterpret the first eleven chapters of Genesis or other areas of Scripture as allegorical or merely symbolic. As just this week we have once again affirmed in an overwhelming manner, the Seventh-day Adventist Church both teaches and believes in the biblical record of creation which took place recently; in six literal, consecutive, contiguous 24 hour days. The Seventh-day Adventist Church will never change its stand or belief in that foundational doctrine. If God did not create this world in six literal days and then blessed the Sabbath day, why are we worshipping Him today on this seventh-day Sabbath as SEVENTH-DAY Adventists? To misunderstand or to misinterpret this doctrine is to deny God’s Word and to deny the very purpose of the Seventh-day Adventist movement as the remnant church of God called to proclaim the three angels’ messages with Holy Spirit power. Don’t go backwards to atheistic or theistic evolution, go forward to the prophetic understanding that loyalty to God, the Creator and Redeemer, will be seen in the observance of the seventh-day Sabbath as the distinguishing characteristic of God’s people in the very end of time. Seventh-day Adventist Church members, hold your leaders, pastors, local churches, educators, institutions, and administrative organizations accountable to the highest standards of belief based on a literal understanding of Scripture. Utilize wonderful resources such as the Biblical Research Institute’s new book on hermeneutics that helps us know the correct way to interpret the Scriptures.

[John317]

Quote:

Jeannieb43: What I don't understand is what the term "emergent" or "emerging" church means.

Could somebody please give a definition?

Does this help at all?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emerging_church

"The emerging church (sometimes referred to as the emergent movement) is a Christian movement of the late 20th and early 21st century that crosses a number of theological boundaries: participants can be described as evangelical, post-evangelical, anabaptist, liberal, post-liberal, reformed, charismatic, neocharismatic, post-charismatic, conservative, and post-conservative."

It is where a church doesn't share the views of the main body but adopts different beliefs and practices from many groups outside, which may include even non-Christian teachings.

It's Babylon. That will not be a popular view by some here but it's the truth.

The emerging church basically teaches that there is no true truth but all churches share equally in the truths and we should just take what we like and reject what we don't like. It seems like a kind of religious smorgasbord-- take whatever tastes good to you, spit the rest out.

Wikipedia says that "the term emergent church was coined in 1981 by Catholic political theologian, Johann Baptist Metz, in a different context."

[SivartM]

The emerging church basically teaches that there is no true truth but all churches share equally in the truths and we should just take what we like and reject what we don't like. It seems like a kind of religious smorgasbord-- take whatever tastes good to you, spit the rest out.

From my experience with the emerging church, that is not true. There is Truth, but we don't have absolute understanding of it.

Of course, the traditional church is also a religious smorgasbord; but in that one you only eat traditional dogma and spit the rest out.

[Woody]

Quote:

"you only eat traditional dogma and spit the rest out."

Ewwwww. Yuck. Just the thought of having to eat traditional dogma makes me sick. That's what "I" would be spitting out.

[olger]

From my experience with the emerging church, that is not true. There is Truth, but we don't have absolute understanding of it.

Where have you gotten your "experience" with the emerging church Travis? Did you attend the November 13-14 conference in Dallas? Do you regularly attend an emerging church service?

[Gail]

If you feel comfortable with collecting what you consider truth from any religion, you will get past one hurdle.

I think, though, what Pam and olger are leery of is the rising acceptance of prayer aids in order to enhance the prayer experience and make it more sensory. Included are candles and mantras (even Scripture can be turned into a mantra) to induce a trance-like state.

Also, I have heard that many churches are reaching out towards the Mass and accepting the Eucharistic Christ.

It's boggling and yes, kind of scary... the protest in Protestantism has almost melted away. That is hard enough to swallow, but the reaching toward the occult makes it seem to me like the 3-way liaison that EGW talked about in the Great Controversy.

That is just my take. I hope I am wrong.

[olger]

"This thing is a monster", to quote Dr. Jovan Markovic.

Richard Rohr (Emergent Catholic priest) said in Dallas - at the Emergent Conference - that protestants are coming back to Mother through the EC movement. Any guesses who "mother" is?

ger

[teresaq]

http://www.inplainsite.org/html/defining_emerging_church.html

this is a link that gives some info about the movement, tho it is admittedly from an opponent.

i think that "blind" condemnation of anything will not produce good results. we need to know what is taught and how those teachings will help/hinder us so all can make an intelligent decision one way or the other.

....

pam and sivartm both bring up good points-there is error in either the right or the left, liberal or conservative, any opposing groups- in Christs day there were the pharisees and sudducees, among other groups, both opposing each other. both had truth and both had error. Jesus belonged to neither.

[Guest]

"This thing is a monster", to quote Dr. Jovan Markovic.

Richard Rohr (Emergent Catholic priest) said in Dallas - at the Emergent Conference - that protestants are coming back to Mother through the EC movement. Any guesses who "mother" is?

ger

Uhh-uhhhhh, Big ben! No, no, wait a minute...uhhhhhh, Mother Nature!!! No, that's not it...hold on, ......uh..Oh I know, I know, CATHOLICISM!! THE MOTHER CHURCH!!!!

So that's why they call it the mother church. I think the Bible calls it the mother of harlots.

Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

Rev 17:7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

[olger]

Thanks for the website Teresa. What we're dealing with here is altered states of consciousness which bypass critical reasoning skills which then opens an individual up for seducing spirits with their doctrines of demons. And one of their favorite teachings, and yes demons have teachings, is to use Plan B along the lines of the following from EC leader, and Roman Catholic mystic, Richard Rohr who tells us “faith is not blind assent, or even reasoned assent, but an essential part of spiritual transformation.”

Translation: What you feel is more important than what you read; thus clouding the issues concerning interpretation.

another website: http://www.cacradicalgrace.org/conferences/2010/emerging-christianity/

Teresa, I agree that there are ditches on both sides of the road. Identifying the dangers of this new "movement" doesn't drive us into the other ditch but rather could help us to avoid both.

blessings,

g

[Guest]

another website: http://www.cacradicalgrace.org/conferences/2010/emerging-christianity/

Teresa, I agree that there are ditches on both sides of the road. Identifying the dangers of this new "movement" doesn't drive us into the other ditch but rather could help us to avoid both.

blessings,

g

Amen!