Why are we being told to stay away from _______________?

[Jeannieb43]

Wow! This is heavy.

[Dr. Shane]

I think, though, what Pam and olger are leery of is the rising acceptance of prayer aids in order to enhance the prayer experience and make it more sensory. Included are candles and mantras (even Scripture can be turned into a mantra) to induce a trance-like state.

I've never tried candles to enhance prayer but... they do work to enhance the mood during special moments with one's spouse but that topic probably belongs in one of those locked away, hidden forums.

[Guest]

I think, though, what Pam and olger are leery of is the rising acceptance of prayer aids in order to enhance the prayer experience and make it more sensory. Included are candles and mantras (even Scripture can be turned into a mantra) to induce a trance-like state.

Make that, Pam, olger, and Richard.

[fccool]

I've done an extensive study on this issue back in my college days. There are quite a bit of what I would consider the "emmergernt church" leader that I've personally spoken to, because they frequented the basketball games in the college that I've played for, so I actually got to speak to the pastors of the fastest growing churches in the US.

There are various reasons that fundamentalist churches are threatened by the emergent church movement. One of these would be the phenomenal membership growth that these churches experience.

For example, we have a local church in town, and they have a capacity to put together a production that rivals Broadway ... all using local church talent.

What emergent churches realized quite some time ago, is that most of the people don't come to church to seek indoctrination. Most of the people seek community, acceptance, support, encouragement, outlet for talents... doctrine usually far down the list. So these churches modified the PRESENTATION of the doctrine that would be more friendly and appealing to such people... and as a result they did experience phenomenal growth.

Now, let's examine what I would consider a perfect example... which perhaps I do admire quite a bit... Dr. James McDonald.

The only reason that Dr. MacDonald is not considered to be emergent, is because he quite often preaches about things that a typical emergent church would not preach on... I.E. need for repentance, the danger of sinful living... yet his messages are practical. Something that you can walk away and apply to your life today in a very direct and real manner. Things are explained without cliche overload, and people can relate to that. That's why they are drawn, because the church presents them with information that they can relate to, understand and digest.

On top of that, the worship order of the emergent church likewise revolves around modern people. Modern people value quality, they value utilization of technology for participation, they value modern approach to music, they value edutainment, they value emotional appeal.

Few fundamentalist churches can do these really well. My local church is probably still 10-15 years behind on technology. We've built a fairly high-end site, with extensive features for member participation... and probably about 5 people were using it.

Likewise, I can see a lot of "emergent record labels" fall in despair, because they loose the support of fundamentalists. I've had a lunch with executive of one of the largest Christian labels in the nation, and he said something to the likes that his own church completely abandoned him when it came to supporting what he was doing.

His point was that if we are seek the lost, we have to know where the lost are, and speak their language without compromising our core beliefs. Yet, this change of presentation frightens the hyper-fundamentalists, who canonized their mode of presentation for centuries as the only mode acceptable by God.

So, it so happens that fundamentalists end up preaching to the choir. By the time the prophecy seminars are done, we get about 5-6 people coming in our church. In fact, the last one we've had 2 new people. The rest were members.

It has nothing to do with avoiding the truth IMO. It has everything to do with the mode of presentation. We are still using 19th century methods and language on 21st century people.

There are reasons why reading KJV is annoying. I read the Spanish version, and it makes more sense to me :)

[Dr. Shane]

The mode of presentation can be changed without impacting any of our doctrines. I agree that we need to be relevant to the society we live in. I favor contemporary worship services and cafe-style Bible studies. However I do not favor changing any of our fundamental 28 beliefs.

[fccool]

The problem is, of course, with people who tend to interpret the 28 in a way that would canonize their mode of presentation. Without proper extensive exposition on the 28, any church can take these and twist it into whatever they like.

For example: SOP = truth = whatever she wrote = what we believe and follow = ...

SOP = wearing jewelry is sin = condemnation and criticism of jewelry = expensive cars are ok

I don't mean to open up a can of worms on these subject. Simply pointing out that 28 beliefs are not merely limited to the 28 beliefs. You have to pretty much consider the GC position on certain issues on top of the E.G.White's social and Biblical commentary, and much of her commentary is not conducive to modern lifestyle, partially because of the era that she was living in.

For example, she saw cities as full disease and iniquity, and not suitable for raising family. Theatrical performances and competitive sports ... and etc.

But these are at the forefront of our culture today. I find it annoyingly difficult to hold any normal male conversation nowadays because I'm absolutely not interested in professional sports. But, I think I would be more effective and more relatable if I indeed followed some of these.

[antcreations]

The problem is, of course, with people who tend to interpret the 28 in a way that would canonize their mode of presentation. Without proper extensive exposition on the 28, any church can take these and twist it into whatever they like.

For example: SOP = truth = whatever she wrote = what we believe and follow = ...

SOP = wearing jewelry is sin = condemnation and criticism of jewelry = expensive cars are ok

I don't mean to open up a can of worms on these subject. Simply pointing out that 28 beliefs are not merely limited to the 28 beliefs. You have to pretty much consider the GC position on certain issues on top of the E.G.White's social and Biblical commentary, and much of her commentary is not conducive to modern lifestyle, partially because of the era that she was living in.

For example, she saw cities as full disease and iniquity, and not suitable for raising family. Theatrical performances and competitive sports ... and etc.

But these are at the forefront of our culture today. I find it annoyingly difficult to hold any normal male conversation nowadays because I'm absolutely not interested in professional sports. But, I think I would be more effective and more relatable if I indeed followed some of these.

[fccool]

"This thing is a monster", to quote Dr. Jovan Markovic.

Richard Rohr (Emergent Catholic priest) said in Dallas - at the Emergent Conference - that protestants are coming back to Mother through the EC movement. Any guesses who "mother" is?

ger

One of the characteristics of the emergent movement is it's congregational and egalitarian model of leadership. It's absolutely inconsistent with Catholic way of running things. Catholics are very strong traditionalists... and in a way more strong than most fundamentalists can be. Pope says... I do.

One of the reasons that people are drawn to emergent churches is precisely because of the lack of such model and egalitarian/participatory approach to running the church.

"Emergent Catholic priest" is like "Microsoft Works"... an oxymoron.

[antcreations]

"Emergent Catholic priest" is like "Microsoft Works"... an oxymoron.

hahaha! Best line of the day! Mac users can relate! hehehehe

[fccool]

A general comment.

As Adventists... classifying EC as Babylon is pretty much by default . Correct me is I'm wrong, but traditional Adventism holds that every church outside of Adventist is in fact Babylon.

Do you believe this statement to be true?

[skyblue888]

This caricature is very cute but it is a lie. It is not the voice of Ellen White we hear in these writings but the voice of the Holy Spirit.

She was only an instrument in the hand of Him who knows all things.

sky

[skyblue888]

A general comment.

As Adventists... classifying EC as Babylon is pretty much by default . Correct me is I'm wrong, but traditional Adventism holds that every church outside of Adventist is in fact Babylon.

Do you believe this statement to be true?

You mean the churches that have taken sides with the first great apostate? We need not go outside of the adventist church anymore. The Testimony of God is that we have put Him aside and accepted the devisings of men. Is this not what the other churches are doing too?

In this we are more guilty than any other church because we had received so much light and yet we have put God aside while maintaining a semblance of zeal for the truth and for the advancement of the kingdom of God.

Talk about "emerging church"!!!

sky

[Woody]

Excellent antcreations. This is good. Our prophet is so abused by those who wear those kind of glasses. And we have SO much we can learn from other churches. Our glasses need to be cleaned so that we can learn from them.

[skyblue888]

I heard that the new president has urged not to look backward but foreward! Sounds wise but what about this statement that has been so often quoted over the years "We have nothing to fear for the future unless we forget how the Lord has led us in the past."

Between 1888 and 1901 the Lord was especially leading us by telling us what the only remedy for sin was, namely appropriating to ourselves the merits of Christ that we might receive the grace of the Holy Spirit which is exceedingly abundant with faith and love. (1 Tim.1:14) After 1888 at every General Conference until 1901 the Lord was calling for a change,for an entire new organization in which there would be no more president of the General Conference or of the Union or Local Conferences. The position was eliminated and reformatory steps were taken to implement this new constitution which was according to Gospel order. But it wasn't long before this new constitution was reversed. Two years later a new president was elected and we have been electing presidents ever since. A few years later this testimony was sent, "The self-confident managment of men has resulted in putting God aside and accepting the devisings of men. If you allow this to continue your faith will soon become extinct." Testimonies to Ministers, p.481.

As all can see, this system of things has been allowed to continue.

In 1901 the Lord said, "What we want now is a reorganization. We want to begin at the foundation, and to build upon a different principle." E.G. White, 1901 G.C. Bulletin, p.25.

Is this call still sounding to the church or is it too late?

sky

[teresaq]

A general comment.

As Adventists... classifying EC as Babylon is pretty much by default . Correct me is I'm wrong, but traditional Adventism holds that every church outside of Adventist is in fact Babylon.

Do you believe this statement to be true?

if we are discussing bible beliefs, yes.

if we are discussing people-members of those churches- no.

for me the problem is more about how we view and treat others. if we see ourselves as superior because we belong to the "right" church keeping the "right" day-and whatever else, we should probably keep in mind,

Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

and

Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write;...Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

apparently they have the "right" God, while He cant get in the door with us...

i hope all understand i am not saying they are all ok, and we are all bad...just trying to put the issue in perspective-it humbles me anyway.

[Dr. Shane]

Hey, hey, hey, now!!!

This is getting out of hand!

[fccool]

Quote:

I hope all understand i am not saying they are all ok, and we are all bad...just trying to put the issue in perspective-it humbles me anyway.

I tend to believe that we jumped the gun on calling ourselves the "remnant" church, because it's pretty clear that the remnant church is not merely a denomination, which SDA church is... it's hardly a "movement" like it was before.

Time will tell, but there will be a time when people will have to take sides... a time when the hierarchical churches will have to either side with the state or cease to exist. It may or may not be a Sabbath issue. Satan is planning to deceive the whole world, including the SDA church, so if we think that he does not know what our expectations are... we should be prepared for some tricks up his sleeves.

So, it would seem to me, that these days we do more tearing down than building up. As Christ would say... those who are not against Him are for Him.

[Dr. Shane]

The church I know in Latin America can correctly be described as a movement. I think it is that way in Africa and parts of Asia too.

[John317]

A general comment.

As Adventists... classifying EC as Babylon is pretty much by default . Correct me is I'm wrong, but traditional Adventism holds that every church outside of Adventist is in fact Babylon.

Do you believe this statement to be true?

Babylon is a spiritual state of being, and it's relative. Some churches are more fallen away from the truth than others. But a person can be in the SDA church in terms of membership but in his mind and heart, he can be in Babylon.

There are some ideas and teachings that individual members are copying from Babylon, but the church itself isn't Babylon.

God has millions of honest, sincerely followers in the fallen churches, including the Roman Catholic Church, so when we talk about the churches being Babylon, we're not judging the people. We're talking about the doctrines of those churches.

Ellen White said many of those people follow the truth they know better than SDAs do. We have so much knowledge available to us, but we often just let it gather dust instead of sharing it with our neighbors and friends.

[fccool]

I tend to believe that... unfortunately we don't teach that with emphasis that we should teach it with.

Many people apply E.G.White's statements on Babylon selectively, and ignore other:

"We should remember that the church, enfeebled and defective though it be, is the only object on earth on which Christ bestows His supreme regard. He is constantly watching it with solicitude, and is strengthening it by His Holy Spirit . . . .

Trust to God's guardianship. His church is to be taught , Enfeebled and defective though it is, it is the object of His supreme regard."

[skyblue888]

The church that is the object of His supreme regard is composed of faithful few as it has been in all ages of the world, that is, of those who are joined to the Head Christ Jesus by trusting in His merits and His merits alone. These men are not amenable to men and therefore they are perceived as being "independent" or "antagonistic" to the "organized work" as Jesus was.

sky

[olger]

Originally Posted By: olger

"This thing is a monster", to quote Dr. Jovan Markovic.

Richard Rohr (Emergent Catholic priest) said in Dallas - at the Emergent Conference - that protestants are coming back to Mother through the EC movement. Any guesses who "mother" is?

ger

One of the characteristics of the emergent movement is it's congregational and egalitarian model of leadership. It's absolutely inconsistent with Catholic way of running things. Catholics are very strong traditionalists... and in a way more strong than most fundamentalists can be. Pope says... I do.

One of the reasons that people are drawn to emergent churches is precisely because of the lack of such model and egalitarian/participatory approach to running the church.

"Emergent Catholic priest" is like "Microsoft Works"... an oxymoron.

Nice "joke", but you fail to know what Rohr is about. You are also assuming that because the Little Horn is against homosexuality on the surface, there are no homosexual priests. The emergent movement is binding people together with the drawcord of spiritualism - heretofore the menacing underbelly of Catholicism.

rejoice always,

g

[Guest]

Nice "joke", but you fail to know what Rohr is about. You are also assuming that because the Little Horn is against homosexuality on the surface, there are no homosexual priests. The emergent movement is binding people together with the drawcord of spiritualism - heretofore the menacing underbelly of Catholicism.

rejoice always,

g

AMEN, my brutha!!

[Guest]

Hilarious.

[mrsducky]

The mode of presentation can be changed without impacting any of our doctrines. I agree that we need to be relevant to the society we live in. I favor contemporary worship services and cafe-style Bible studies. However I do not favor changing any of our fundamental 28 beliefs.

Jesus and the gospel are relevant to contemporary society! If we really are the remnant church then shouldn't we be preaching the same message as is in the Bible? I sometimes wonder if contemporary worship services and so on are just thinly veiled worldly entertainment. To me such services have little substance. I think care must be taken so we are not caught up in similar circumstances as the acceptance of the sacrifices of Cain and Abel. Just my take on this. . .