Thou Shalt Not Kill: What did God really mean by this?

[olger]

Olger snaps out of his pseudo 17-year old argumentive state and apologizes for offending sensibilities .

Back to the original question, both. The taking of life throug murder and inner malice of the heart are both wrong. Murder does more damage to others and inner malice does more damage to the person holding it. Both bad.

og out

[SivartM]

You offended someone?

Did David murder Goliath? It was premeditated. And pretty violent.

[Guest]

Yes he offended me by asking impertinent questions. The premise of this whole thread is impertinent. What the commandment really says is: "Thou Shalt Not Murder"

There is a time to kill, as stated in Ecc 3:3, and evidenced by the account of David and Goliath and many others.

[pnattmbtc]

From what I've read, the commandment doesn't say either "Thou shalt not kill" nor "Thou shalt not murder." That is, the Hebrew word doesn't translate exactly to either of our English words.

To see the meaning of the commandment, we should look to Christ's life and teachings, as for the other commandments as well.

The commandments are a transcript of God's character. In Jesus Christ, we see the character of God revealed. It can be difficult for us to understand God, because of His power and grandeur, immenseness, etc. So God became a human being so we could see what He is really like. John 1:18.

Jesus Christ has revealed to us what God is like, and from this we can see the meaning of the commandments.

[John317]

So we should all be maniacal serial killers?

Society shouldn't execute the insane, but a society certainly has the moral right to execute serial killers and murderers. In fact, a very good case could be made that the Bible supports such executions.

The commandment is "You shall not murder." (NKJV; NASB) When the state executes criminals convicted of their crimes, it isn't committing "murder."

It was the pre-incarnate Christ who said,

And for your lifeblood I will require a reckoning: from every beast I will require it and from man. From his fellow man I will require a reckoning for the life of man.

[6] "Whoever sheds the blood of man,

by man shall his blood be shed,

for God made man in his own image." (Gen . 9: 5-6)

Leviticus 24:17

[17] "Whoever takes a human life shall surely be put to death."

[SivartM]

Weren't you also to be put to death for breaking the Sabbath?

As far as I know Jesus never killed any murderers, but I'm sure he forgave some.

[teresaq]

Olger snaps out of his ...

Back to the original question, both. The taking of life throug murder and inner malice of the heart are both wrong. Murder does more damage to others and inner malice does more damage to the person holding it.

the second thought was especially good. "inner malice does damage to the person holding it."

[teresaq]

it could be seen as an "experiment".

before the flood all mankind had become violent, but no external consequences had been decreed.

after the flood an external consequence was employed--but man took it to the other extreme...

then Jesus came along and said, this is how we-the Godhead- do it...

[phkrause]

From what I've read, the commandment doesn't say either "Thou shalt not kill" nor "Thou shalt not murder." That is, the Hebrew word doesn't translate exactly to either of our English words.

To see the meaning of the commandment, we should look to Christ's life and teachings, as for the other commandments as well.

The commandments are a transcript of God's character. In Jesus Christ, we see the character of God revealed. It can be difficult for us to understand God, because of His power and grandeur, immenseness, etc. So God became a human being so we could see what He is really like. John 1:18.

Jesus Christ has revealed to us what God is like, and from this we can see the meaning of the commandments.

So than what is it saying?

Here's a link to how the Jews translated this from the Hebrew. And notice that they did not commentate on that commandment, because its pretty self explanatory of what its saying.

[John317]

Weren't you also to be put to death for breaking the Sabbath?

As far as I know Jesus never killed any murderers, but I'm sure he forgave some.

Yes, that is true, and as followers of Christ, we are also to love and forgive murderers. But that doesn't mean they shouldn't be punished for their crimes. I forgive the person who killed a friend of mine, but he must still reap the consequences of his decision to take someone's life.

You'll notice that Jesus never said that the law shouldn't be enforced or that criminals shouldn't be punished.

And for your lifeblood I will require a reckoning: from every beast I will require it and from man. From his fellow man I will require a reckoning for the life of man.

[6] "Whoever sheds the blood of man,

by man shall his blood be shed,

for God made man in his own image." (Gen . 9: 5-6)

Leviticus 24:17

[17] "Whoever takes a human life shall surely be put to death."

[SivartM]

Is it not possible to punish someone with killing them?

[fccool]

You can take a read here as far as OT dealing with killing and murder. There are certainly a distinction made between these two. The cities of refuge were set up for those who would commit a crime of the accidental death, and people were to flee to these cities.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Numbers+35&version=NASB

But, there's a clear distinction between killing and murder.

[John317]

Genesis 9:6

"Whoever sheds the blood of man,

by man shall his blood be shed,

for God made man in his own image.

it could be seen as an "experiment".

before the flood all mankind had become violent, but no external consequences had been decreed.

What does a society say about the value of a human life when it sends someone who murders to prison for a 10 or 15 years? In some societies, people are able to pay money and get out of prison much sooner, or even avoid prison altogether.

The main purpose of God's command in Gen 9: 4-6 was to make sure people understand the high value God places on human life. He does this by requiring that people who take human life give up their own life.

The laws concerning the cities of refuge showed that God saw degrees of culpability.

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

after the flood an external consequence was employed--but man took it to the other extreme...

People became cruel and enjoyed killing, just as many do today.

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

then Jesus came along and said, this is how we-the Godhead- do it...

The first time He came, Jesus didn't come to judge but to save and show God's grace. He came to die for all sinners.

But as Heb. 9: 27, 28 and Rev. 19: 11-21 show, we see that Christ comes the second time to execute justice upon the wicked.

It's important to remember that about 25 years after Christ ascended to heaven, the Godhead inspired Paul to write Romans 13: 1-7, which says that the governments of the world are God's instrument for punishing evil doers. Therefore it is plain that God did not want governments to merely forgive all the criminals. That wouldn't help anything-- in fact, it would make things far worse.

Quote:

Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. [2] Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. [3] For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, [4] for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. [5] Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience. [6] For the same reason you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. [7] Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed.

There's a difference betweeen what God calls the churches and believers to do and what God realizes the governments must do in order to keep law and order.

[Guest]

Is it not possible to punish someone with killing them?

Sure it's possible, they do it all the time. I don't think I understand your question.

[olger]

What makes a question a question? How do you know it's possible? Killing time is murder too...

ooops

[Guest]

What makes a question a question? How do you know it's possible? Killing time is murder too...

ooops

[John317]

Is it not possible to punish someone with killing them?

Yes, it is possible to punish someone without killing them.

As Richard said, it is done all the time.

People often go to prison for murder, and they commit murder again in prison. Very often, too, they commit murder after they serve their time and are released. It doesn't teach people that life is sacred.

While in prison, they get free food, free medical care, free counseling, free TV, besides drugs and sex. In many countries, they have access to female prostitutes. Their victim lies dead in a grave while the murderer is watching TV, getting his teeth cleaned, eating chicken dinners, enjoying sex, and looking forward to life on the outside.

[Guest]

Wow, what a thought. But you're right.

[John317]

Even if a murderer receives life without possibility of parole, he will have something his victims never can have: hope.

Take the case of Richard Ramirez, aka Night-stalker. He brutally raped and killed at least 15 people. I remember well when he was terrorizing the people where I live back in the 1980s. He's having a good time enjoying his "bad reputation" in prison.

From wikipedia:

Quote:

On September 20, 1989, Ramírez was found guilty of 13 counts of murder, 5 attempted murders, 11 sexual assaults, and 14 burglaries.[9]

During the penalty phase of the trial on November 7, 1989, he was sentenced to death in California's gas chamber. The trial of Richard Ramírez was one of the most difficult and longest criminal trials in American history. Nearly 1,600 prospective jurors were interviewed. More than one hundred witnesses testified, and while a number of witnesses had a difficult time recalling certain facts four years after the crimes, others were quite certain of the identity of Ramírez.

By the time of the trial, Ramírez had fans who were writing him letters and paying him visits. Freelance magazine editor Doreen Lioy wrote him nearly 75 letters after his capture. He proposed to her, and on October 3, 1996, they were married in California's San Quentin State Prison.[11]

The whole disgusting story:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Ramirez

[Guest]

Wow, that really is disgusting!

[doug yowell]

[

People often go to prison for murder, and they commit murder again in prison. Very often, too, they commit murder after they serve their time and are released. It doesn't teach people that life is sacred.

While in prison, they get free food, free medical care, free counseling, free TV, besides drugs and sex. In many countries, they have access to female prostitutes. Their victim lies dead in a grave while the murderer is watching TV, getting his teeth cleaned, eating chicken dinners, enjoying sex, and looking forward to life on the outside.

While the family, friends, and all those that the victims lives touched for good work hard so they can pay the living, and legal appeal expenses of the murderer.

[teresaq]

ill be happy to respond when you respond to the points i made, otherwise its not a discussion. :)