reading about the "merits of Christ" between the lines of the Bible?

[skyblue888]

All are familiar with the words, "I deserved it," or "He deserved it." It may be a promotion or a raise in one's wages or whatever it might be. People judge the worth of a cause by its merits. We accept or reject ideas on account of their having merits or not. In financial matters, schemes, propositions, ideas and plans are rejected or approved according to their merits or demerits.

It is a very natural thing for human beings to treat matters or other human beings according to their merits or demerits. People "earn" merits through hard work, dedication, bravery, or through sacrificing whatever it might be. The more merits a person has earned, the more that person is worthy of notice or honored and the more that individual becomes the object of our admiration!

There are those who say that the words "merits of Christ" are not found in the Bible but I ask you, Are not the condescension and humiliation and the spotless life of the Son of God worth something and therefore full of divine merits? Is not His sacrificial death most worthy of our notice and admiration? Of course they are! Did not Christ, by His life and death, earn infinite merits and would it not be fair to ask, in the light of the infinite sacrifice that was made: Should not all other merits be held in abomination save those of Jesus? I hope all can say "yes".

But this is not all. Our Heavenly Father is not satisfied or pleased unless we appropriate the merits of that infinite sacrifice to ourselves! That's right! God the Father is not pleased unless we appropriate to ourselves the very merits that Christ earned by His infinite sacrifice! Why is that? So that we might be treated as He deserves to be treated!

"Jesus was treated as we deserve that we might be treated as He deserves." D.A.25.

Behold what manner of love! God so loved the world!

Do we appreciate the merits of the Saviour? Isn't it a marvelous thing that by His sacrificial death Jesus paid the ransom price for each one of us that we might be saved from eternal oblivion but is it not an even more marvelous thing that He should have been treated as we deserve that we might be treated as He deserves? Is it not an even more marvelous thing that His merits should be placed upon man and thus be elevated in the scales of moral value with God?

"Christ places His own merits upon man and thus elevates him in the scales of moral value, with God." E.G. White, Our Father Cares, p.121.

What manner of love is this! As we make it our lifebusiness to look to Jesus and to claim the merits of His infinite sacrifice, the Father then clothes us with the glistening vesture of Christ's righteousness and we become members of the Royal Family, members of the Household of God on a par with Jesus Himself!

As we lay hold, by faith, of the merits of the Lamb that was slain, Christ encircles us with His human arm while with His divine arm He grasps the throne of the Infinite and the Father loves us as He loves His Son!

This is the "true light" which the enemy is fighting against all the time. He knows that this is the light that should burn brightly into the hearts of all men to shine out in good works, in real, heartfelt service for God.

It has been said that not one in one hundred understands this Bible truth on this subject that is so necessary to our present and eternal welfare! Rom.3:25; Col.1:20; Heb.10:19; Eph.1:7; 1 S.M.360.

But the truth remains: "The only faith that will benefit us is that which embraces Him as a personal Saviour: which appropriates His merits to ourselves." D.A. p347.

This is the hope that is set before us in the Scriptures! Heb.6:18.

And what a living hope!

Thank God for His unspeakable gift! 2 Cor.9:15.

sky

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

There are those who say that the words "merits of Christ" are not found in the Bible but I ask you, Are not the condescension and humiliation and the spotless life of the Son of God worth something and therefore full of divine merits? Is not His sacrificial death most worthy of our notice and admiration? Of course they are! Did not Christ, by His life and death, earn infinite merits and would it not be fair to ask, in the light of the infinite sacrifice that was made: Should not all other merits be held in abomination save those of Jesus? I hope all can say "yes".

Amen to this!!!

Quote:

How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8. (DA 175)

sky, I've asked you the following a number of times, without a response, as far as I can recall. Do you see this paragraph as saying the same thing as what you're talking about? (appropriating the merits of Christ).

I really appreciate the point of the first paragraph above.

[skyblue888]

pnatt, I believe I did answer you once by applying the principle or rule of interpretation for the Testimonies.

"The testimonies themselves will be the key that will explain the messages given as Scripture is explained by Scripture." 1 S.M.42.

That statement you quoted must be explained by another statement just as one passage of Scripture is explained by another passage of Scripture.

In Patriarchs and Prophets, p.430:

"The lifting up of the brazen serpent was to teach Israel an important lesson. They could not save themselves from the fatal effect of the poison of their wounds. God alone was able to heal them. Yet they were required to show their faith in the provision which He had made. They must look in order to live. It was their faith that was acceptable with God, and by looking upon the serpent their faith was shown. They knew that there was no virtue in the serpent itself, but it was a symbol of Christ; and the necessity of faith in His merits was thus presented to their minds."

This statement clearly explains what it means to "look and live" from the one you quoted from D.A.175. On that very same page 175 we read, "Through faith we receive the grace of God; but faith is not our Saviour. It earns nothing. It is the hand by which we lay hold upon Christ, and appropriate His merits, the remedy for sin."

"Faith is the condition upon which God has seen fit to promise pardon to sinners; not that there is any virtue in faith whereby salvation is merited, but because faith can lay hold of the merits of Christ, the remedy provided for sin." Faith and Works, p.100,101.

To "look and live" is to understand the necessity of looking to Christ and to accept His merits which it is our privilege to claim. Unless we do this, we cannot be saved.

"Unless he makes it his lifebusiness to behold the uplifted Saviour and to accept the merits which it is our privilege to claim, the sinner can no more be saved than Peter could walk upon the water unless he kept his eyes steafily fixed upon Jesus." Testimonies to Ministers, p.93.

One statement is explained by another statement just as Scripture is explained by Scripture.

sky

[pnattmbtc]

My question is if you believe that applying the merits of Jesus Christ means the same thing as the following:

Quote:

How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8. (DA 175)

Please answer "yes" or "no." If your answer is "yes," there's no need to write anything else. If you're answer is "no" or "no, not exactly," then please explain what you see the difference to be.

Thanks.

[Guest]

That statement you quoted must be explained by another statement just as one passage of Scripture is explained by another passage of Scripture.

Not every statement or scripture needs to be explained by another one. Some are so plain and straight forward that they need no explaining. For example John 3:16. What text would you use to try to explain John 3:16?

I remember how far out in left field you got when you presumed to use one quote, to basically nullify everything Ellen White ever said about how the wicked will be destroyed. What a farce.

It showed a lot of people how you can take something too far, and end up far far away from the path of truth in a hurry. Just by presuming that you know which understanding needs to be arrived at. Instead of just reading what it says.

[teresaq]

It showed a lot of people how you can take something too far, and end up far far away from the path of truth in a hurry. Just by presuming that you know which understanding needs to be arrived at. Instead of just reading what it says.

we can see you disagreed with his thoughts...you wont mind if not many of us accept you as another "ellen white", will you? :)

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

I remember how far out in left field you got when you presumed to use one quote, to basically nullify everything Ellen White ever said about how the wicked will be destroyed. What a farce.

It's fine to disagree with someone, but one should at least be reasonable in doing so.

Here's 16 real quick. There are many more:

Quote:

God destroys no man. Everyone who is destroyed will have destroyed himself. Christ's Object Lessons, 84.

Quote:

God destroys no one. Testimonies for the Church, 5:120.

Quote:

God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejecters of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown, which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The Great Controversy, 36.

Quote:

Satan is the destroyer. God cannot bless those who refuse to be faithful stewards. All He can do is to permit Satan to accomplish his destroying work. We see calamities of every kind and in every degree corning upon the earth, and why? The Lord's restraining power is not exercised. The world has disregarded the word of God. They live as though there were no God. Like the inhabitants of the Noachic world, they refuse to have any thought of God. Wickedness prevails to an alarming extent, and the earth is ripe for the harvest." Testimonies for the Church, 6:388, 389.

Quote:

This earth has almost reached the place where God will permit the destroyer to work his will upon it. Testimonies for the Church, 7:141.

Quote:

God keeps a reckoning with the nations. Not a sparrow falls to the ground without His notice. Those who work evil toward their fellow men, saying, How doth God know? will one day be called upon to meet long-deferred vengeance. In this age a more than common contempt is shown to God. Men have reached a point in insolence and disobedience which shows that their cup of iniquity is almost full. Many have well-nigh passed the boundary of mercy. Soon God will show that He is indeed the living God. He will say to the angels, 'No longer combat Satan in his efforts to destroy. Let him work out his malignity upon the children of disobedience; for the cup of their iniquity is full. They have advanced from one degree of wickedness to another, adding daily to their lawlessness. I will no longer interfere to prevent the destroyer from doing his work." The Review and Herald, September 17, 1901.

Quote:

When Jesus was asked to destroy the Samaritans who had rejected Him, He replied to His disciples, "Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village." Luke 9:55, 56.

There can be no more conclusive evidence that we possess the spirit of Satan than the disposition to hurt and destroy those who do not appreciate our work, or who act contrary to our ideas. The Desire of Ages, 487.

Quote:

Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. His authority rests upon goodness, mercy and love; and the presentation of these principles is the means to be used. God's government is moral, and truth and love are to be the prevailing power. ibid., 759.

Quote:

The exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God's government; He desires only the service of love; and love cannot be commanded; it cannot be won by force or authority." ibid., 22.

Quote:

Sickness, suffering, and death are work of an antagonistic power. Satan is the destroyer; God is the restorer. The Ministry of Healing, 113.

Quote:

While it was in harmony with worldly government, it was not, however, according to the principle of the heavenly government. Hence it is, that again, in the person of the Babylonian king, Satan is challenging the government of God. When Lucifer and his angels refused to bow before the throne of God, the Father would not then destroy them. They should live until death should come as a result of the course they pursued. The Babylonian king, however, threatened utter destruction to all who refused to worship his golden image. The motive power in the heavenly government is love; human power when exercised becomes tyranny. All tyranny is a repetition of the Babylonian principles. We sometimes call it papal; it is likewise Babylonian. When the civil power enforces worship of any sort, be that worship true or false in itself, to obey is idolatry. The command must be backed by some form of punishment,-a fiery furnace,-and the conscience of man is no longer free. From a civil standpoint, such legislation is tyranny, and looked at from a religious point of view, it is persecution. {1901 SNH, SDP 41.1}

Quote:

"We are not to regard God as waiting to punish the sinner." 1 S.M.235.

Quote:

When parents or rulers neglect to discipline their children God will take the case in hand. His restraining power will be in a measure removed from the agencies of evil so that a train of circumstances will arise that will punish sin with sin." P.P.739.

Quote:

"Tradition and misinterpretation has obscured the teaching of the Bible concerning the character of God, the nature of His government, and the principles of His dealing with sin." G.C.492.

Quote:

God bears with divine patience with the perversity of the wicked; but He declares that He will visit their transgressions with a rod. He will at last permit the destructive agencies of Satan to bear sway to destroy. MS 17, 1906.

Quote:

He will say to the angels, „No longer combat Satan in his efforts to destroy. Let him work out his malignity upon the children of disobedience, for the cup of iniquity is full.“ Review and Herald, Vol.4, p.335.

[Guest]

I could show you more than 16 real quick that say God is the one who will destroy the wicked at the end. (but you ignore those, and say that she doesn't really mean what she's saying)

The only difference is that my quotes, (the ones you ignore) are actually referring to the destruction of the wicked at the end of time, and not just generalities.

[teresaq]

so how do you understand each of the quotes given? in more than a general dismissive way if you can... :)

[Lutz13]

I could show you more than 16 real quick that say God is the one who will destroy the wicked at the end. (but you ignore those, and say that she doesn't really mean what she's saying)

The only difference is that my quotes, (the ones you ignore) are actually referring to the destruction of the wicked at the end of time, and not just generalities.

Let each man be persuaded in his own mind. I could never understand how anyone could trust a god that puts a gun to their head. But if it works for you, then that is good.

[Guest]

There is no gun to my head. I don't serve God from fear, because I know what is going to happen to the wicked. But out of love for the things that He's done for me. And is still doing for me. I'm sorry you can't see that.

[jasd]

QR frame:

Quote:

"Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29.

So, should the "sin of the world" (sounds corporate and totally inclusive, yes?) be 'taken away' - when has this occurred or will occur?

Doesn't the thought "taketh away" best find its fulfillment with Jesus Christ's expiation at the cross?

YLT John 1:29 ... 'Lo, the Lamb of God, who is taking away the sin of the world;

Should the "sin of the world" have been taken away at the crucifixion, then - for what sin(s) are the damned paying for 'in the destruction'? ...the [supposedly] total annihilation of body, soul, and spirit of [unsaved] man?

[skyblue888]

I really don't understand us as a people anymore. We don't believe our Father in Heaven when He says to us, "The merits of Christ's sacrifice are sufficient to present before Me in your behalf." "Though I live in light unapporachable, I receive you to Myself through the merits of My Son." Therefore, "Present your case before Me pleading the merits of the blood shed for you upon Calvary's cross. This is your only plea." And then He says to us, "If you do this, you cannot perish."

Instead of believing Him implicitly, and doing exactly what He tells us to do, with the simple faith of a little child, we go on arguing about what the Gospel is and we end up with a zillion versions of the Gospel. We keep on debating, discussing, theorizing, philosophying about the Gospel when the Father has already spoken to us in very simple language. "I will receive everyone that comes to Me trusting wholly in the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour."

He has clearly said to us that by looking unto Jesus and trusting in His merits, we receive the blessings of pardon and light and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit but it would seem that we would rather believe any other gospel but this one which is the only Gospel, the true religion, the only religion of the Bible.

sky

[skyblue888]

"God's people cannot please God unless they are surcharged with the Holy Spirit's sufficiency." 1 S.M.113.

To the all-sufficient merits of Christ we should daily apply that we may be surcharged with the Holy Spirit's sufficiency and thus become vessels fit for the Master's use.

"Looking unto Jesus and trusting in His merits we appropriate the blessings of light and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit." 5 T 744.

sky

[fccool]

Quote:

God destroys no man. Everyone who is destroyed will have destroyed himself. Christ's Object Lessons, 84.

If God does not destroy the wicked, then what was the Sodom and Gomorrah all about... meteor shower?

[skyblue888]

fcool, the Bible says that "God slew Saul and turned the kingdom over to David." 1 Chron.10:14. But Saul killed himself by falling on his own sword. 1 Chro.10:4. "God slew Saul" but not direclty. He had no other choice but to remove His protecting care from him and Saul was left with no power to control the evil passions of the soul and he was also left without any protection from the malice and enmity of Satan who would have killed him at the hand of the Philistines. This is how God slew Saul.

It is the same with Sodom and Gomorrah for "the principles of God's dealing with men are ever the same." G.C.343.

The language used to describe the destruction of Saul is the same used to describe the destruction of these cities and the destruction of the wicked at the end of the thousand years.

sky

[Guest]

Quote:

God destroys no man. Everyone who is destroyed will have destroyed himself. Christ's Object Lessons, 84.

If God does not destroy the wicked, then what was the Sodom and Gomorrah all about... meteor shower?

fccool, I have already been around the track with these guys. They believe God doesn't really do what He says. They will try to tell you it was a volcano near by, even though the Bible says it was God that did it. LOL

And yes, they are serious.

[SivartM]

I don't see what's so funny about people thinking so highly of God. This is one of those things where everyone has their proof texts; I'm not sure who is actually right and I lean toward those who say that God does not destroy but ultimately I think we'll find out that it was a rather meaningless debate. Once we see God face to face I think we'll understand far better than we can from a list of quotes gathered to prove our points.

[Guest]

The language used to describe the destruction of Saul is the same used to describe the destruction of these cities and the destruction of the wicked at the end of the thousand years.

sky

Can you show where it says that in the Bible, or should I just take your word for it?

Just because you can point to an appearant contradiction about Saul does NOT give you license to re-arrange the whole Bible, and say that nothing really means what it says.

Show where it says that we are to take this kind of reasoning, and apply it to Sodom and Gomorrah, or the destruction of the wicked at the end. Otherwise I have to believe what the Bible says.

[jasd]

>>We don't believe our Father in Heaven when He says to us, "The merits of Christ's sacrifice are sufficient to present before Me in your behalf." "Though I live in light unapporachable, I receive you to Myself through the merits of My Son." Therefore, "Present your case before Me pleading the merits of the blood shed for you upon Calvary's cross. This is your only plea." And then He says to us, "If you do this, you cannot perish (#622 Strong's)."<< [ed.jasd]

Jesus Christ takes belief to a more fundamental level that requires no pleading. St John wrote of Jesus Christ striking to the heart of the matter with His words, “whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die” – employing the emphatic double negative; that is, “never ever”, “not ever”, “never never” – die (#599 Strong's).

I propose that should there be pleading involved in the salvific experience of other than the NT Xtian – it may be found at a judgement. However, there are those who propose a judgement in absentia, as those being judged are ‘sleeping’, soul-sleeping (hardly able to plead), whilst they are being judged.

It is supposed that those damned by such a process experience the ‘smackdown’ of all ‘smackdowns’, don’t you?—form a Being whose descriptive is LOVE. Makes sense to you?

>>...we go on arguing about what the Gospel is and we end up with a zillion versions of the Gospel. We keep on debating, discussing, theorizing, philosophying about the Gospel when the Father has already spoken to us in very simple language.<<

The language may not be as simple as purported – else why does Holy Writ contain this text...

Prov 25:2 [it is] the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings [is] to search out a matter.

I think it is self-evident that Holy Writ is multilayered – simplicity is lost in the first blush. We say, “Believe, and be saved!” Others will say, “Satan believes, yet is lost.” From there, epistemology turns, wheels, and widens... I think that when Gd commended the Bereans – He did so, bearing in mind the intellectual universe of each individual – as He does today, still.

>>"I will receive everyone that comes to Me trusting wholly in the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour."<<

Inasmuch as there are multitudes who died without knowledge of the Saviour or the crucifixion – “trust in the merits of the crucifixion” seems to me, as proffered – to obtain for those ‘multitudes, only post-resurrection. Yet there are those who say that the first resurrection is of the already saved “by believing in the merits of the Saviour and His crucifixion”, and the second resurrection is one unto everlasting death.

Trust, for the aforementioned ‘multitudes’ would seem no more than an empty cup, yes?

>>He has clearly said to us that by looking unto Jesus and trusting in His merits, we receive the blessings of pardon and light and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit...<<

So, has all mankind been exposed to the saving merits of Jesus Christ? No, indeed not – excepting the smallest portion of them.

If all mankind is to be given the chance to receive the Gospel – seems difficult to reject the concept of Universalism in Writ, yes?

So, back to John 1:29 and the “sin of the world” having already been taken away. The denouement of that is – that there is therefore no charge that can be laid – ultimately, yes? Kinda like the blamelessness of David – who, with expiring breath, ordered

the murder of a man.

Holy Writ reveals itself ever unfolding, depths and surfaces wheeling and turning...

[fccool]

fcool, the Bible says that "God slew Saul and turned the kingdom over to David." 1 Chron.10:14. But Saul killed himself by falling on his own sword. 1 Chro.10:4. "God slew Saul" but not direclty. He had no other choice but to remove His protecting care from him and Saul was left with no power to control the evil passions of the soul and he was also left without any protection from the malice and enmity of Satan who would have killed him at the hand of the Philistines. This is how God slew Saul.

It is the same with Sodom and Gomorrah for "the principles of God's dealing with men are ever the same." G.C.343.

The language used to describe the destruction of Saul is the same used to describe the destruction of these cities and the destruction of the wicked at the end of the thousand years.

sky

No it does not . People did not merely drown in the flood. God actively flooded the earth. Likewise people did not merely burned in the Sodom. God sent the fire from Heaven.

Saul falling on the sword is a passive act on God's behalf. God flooding the earth is active... no way around it. Did the earth flood itself?

[skyblue888]

fcool, of course the language is that fire from God out of heaven (not Heaven) destroyed them all... just as it says that "God slew Saul." But this judgment of God upon those cities did not come "directly" out from the Lord upon them any more than Saul was directly slain by the Lord.

May be this will help:

"I was shown that Satan would entangle and then destroy, if he could, the souls he had tempted. God will bear long, but there is a bound to His mercy, a line which marks His mercy and His justice. I was shown that the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord upon them, but in this way--they place themselves beyond His protection. He warns, corrects, reproves, and points out the only path of safety; then, if those who have been the objects of His special care follow their own course, independent of the Spirit of God, after repetated warnings, if they chose their own way, then He does not commission His angels to prevent Satan's decided attacks upon them." Manuscript Releases, Vol.14, p.3.1

This testimony clearly explains how the language "fire from God out of heaven destroyed them all" is to be understood. And this principle of interpretation stands true in the Bible from cover to cover.

What do you make of it brother fcool?

sky

[Guest]

fcool, of course the language is that fire from God out of heaven (not Heaven) destroyed them all... just as it says that "God slew Saul." But this judgment of God upon those cities did not come "directly" out from the Lord upon them any more than Saul was directly slain by the Lord.

[skyblue888]

Thanks Richard but I already know what you think. I asked my friend fcool to give me his feedback.

sky

[pnattmbtc]

I could show you more than 16 real quick that say God is the one who will destroy the wicked at the end. (but you ignore those, and say that she doesn't really mean what she's saying)

The only difference is that my quotes, (the ones you ignore) are actually referring to the destruction of the wicked at the end of time, and not just generalities.