reading about the "merits of Christ" between the lines of the Bible?

[pnattmbtc]

There is no gun to my head. I don't serve God from fear, because I know what is going to happen to the wicked. But out of love for the things that He's done for me. And is still doing for me. I'm sorry you can't see that.

Sure there's a gun to your head. Do what I say, out of love for me, but if you don't, I'll burn you alive for days. It's hard to believe a person wouldn't perceive the inherent problem here.

[pnattmbtc]

fccool, I have already been around the track with these guys. They believe God doesn't really do what He says. They will try to tell you it was a volcano near by, even though the Bible says it was God that did it. LOL

[pnattmbtc]

Just because you can point to an appearant contradiction about Saul does NOT give you license to re-arrange the whole Bible, and say that nothing really means what it says.

Show where it says that we are to take this kind of reasoning, and apply it to Sodom and Gomorrah, or the destruction of the wicked at the end. Otherwise I have to believe what the Bible says.

The point is not that there is an apparent contradiction. That has nothing to do with it. The point is that the Bible says that "God did it" (which is what you use for proof that God did something), when clearly He didn't. So your whole criterion for deciding if God did something is inadequate from the get go.

You say, "otherwise you have to believe what the Bible says," but this isn't what you believe in many cases, which I just cited in the previous post:

1.David's numbering Jerusalem.

2.God's destruction of Jerusalem.

3.God's sending fiery serpents upon the Israelites.

4.God's sending strong delusion.

These are a few that immediately come to mind, in addition to God's killing Saul. God's sending lying spirits to Ahab is another. There are lots of these. How do you know when God is doing the thing He is portrayed as doing or not?

[Lutz13]

Originally Posted By: Richard

There is no gun to my head. I don't serve God from fear, because I know what is going to happen to the wicked. But out of love for the things that He's done for me. And is still doing for me. I'm sorry you can't see that.

Sure there's a gun to your head. Do what I say, out of love for me, but if you don't, I'll burn you alive for days. It's hard to believe a person wouldn't perceive the inherent problem here.

Or something like this. "Hey, I have this friend, he does sooo much for me, and gives me all these things...I just try to not look at the fact that he will kill anyone who doesn't want to be friends with him, which also includes myself. But hey, I just don't think about that!"

[Guest]

I wonder what you will say when the time comes for God to finally destroy the wicked? Maybe it will be something like:

Oh wow Lord, I didn't think you would actually do it! Yes, .......Yes I know you said you would, but I didn't think you actually meant that you would do it. Yes I know it's in the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, but....Yes I know you said it over and over through virtually every prophet that ever lived. ....Yes I know Ellen White even said it in very plain language, yes but we ran it through a prism....but....but...But these people over here convinced me that you didn't really mean it. They told me it was some kind of code language, that really doesn't mean what it says. They taught me a whole different way to interpret the Bible. You know how the Bible says that you slew Saul but you really didn't? What?...... Well yes I guess I have re-structured my whole belief system around a few appearant contradictions. Wait, what do you mean hoodwinked....Allowed my faith to be hi-jacked, what? No, wait, I didn't know it was a lie, they convinced me....Ohhhh NO!!!

[Lutz13]

I wonder what you will say when the time comes for God to finally destroy the wicked? Maybe it will be something like:

Oh wow Lord, I didn't think you would actually do it! Yes, .......Yes I know you said you would, but I didn't think you actually meant that you would do it. Yes I know it's in the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, but....Yes I know you said it over and over through virtually every prophet that ever lived. ....Yes I know Ellen White even said it in very plain language, yes but we ran it through a prism....but....but...But these people over here convinced me that you didn't really mean it. They told me it was some kind of code language, that really doesn't mean what it says. They taught me a whole different way to interpret the Bible. You know how the Bible says that you slew Saul but you really didn't? What?...... Well yes I guess I have re-structured my whole belief system around a few appearant contradictions. Wait, what do you mean hoodwinked....Allowed my faith to be hi-jacked, what? No, wait, I didn't know it was a lie, they convinced me....Ohhhh NO!!!

Richard, how would you interpret what Jesus said after He told the parable of the unforgiving servant. This verse: "My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart." --Matthew 18:35

[teresaq]

I wonder what you will say when the time comes for God to finally destroy the wicked? Maybe it will be something like:

Oh wow Lord, I didn't think you would actually do it! Yes, .......Yes I know you said you would, but I didn't think you actually meant that you would do it. Yes I know it's in the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, but....Yes I know you said it over and over through virtually every prophet that ever lived. ....Yes I know Ellen White even said it in very plain language, yes but we ran it through a prism....but....but...But these people over here convinced me that you didn't really mean it. They told me it was some kind of code language, that really doesn't mean what it says. They taught me a whole different way to interpret the Bible. You know how the Bible says that you slew Saul but you really didn't? What?...... Well yes I guess I have re-structured my whole belief system around a few appearant contradictions. Wait, what do you mean hoodwinked....Allowed my faith to be hi-jacked, what? No, wait, I didn't know it was a lie, they convinced me....Ohhhh NO!!!

so are you saying you see this as a salvational issue, richard?

either believe God will kill you in "wrath" or He will not save you?

[teresaq]

addressing the topic, since Christs merits are His self-denial and self-sacrifice then His perfect obedience would be in those continual acts, it seems to me...

[skyblue888]

In the great judgment day, after the 1,000 years, both the redeemed and the unsaved will see and understand how truthful these words are, that "God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression" but that "He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves to reap that which they have sown." G.C.36.

It will be seen that there will be no fire coming directly out from the Lord upon the wicked but that the Lord will not intefere when the unsaved of all ages shall, with the fury of demons, turn upon Satan and those who have been his agents in deception. Fire will erupt from the midst of them as the battle shall rage. It is in that sense that it is written that fire will come from God out of heaven simply because God will not exercise His power to prevent it.

sky

[skyblue888]

"God will accept everyone that comes to Him trusting wholly in the merits of the blood of a crucified and risen Saviour." 1 S.M.354.

When the Holy Spirit says, "Present your case before God pleading the merits of the blood shed for you upon Calvary's cross," He is talking about everyone that has been made conscious of his being a sinner and of his desperate need of a Saviour.

The Gospel of the merits and righteousness of Christ is not for those who are rich and increased with goods and in need of nothing but for the poor in spirit, those who know that they cannot possibly save themselves, or of themselves do any righteous action. They are the ones whom Christ is talking about when he says, "Present your case before God pleading the merits of the blood shed for you upon Calvary's cross."

Besides their great need, this is their only plea.

What must I do to be saved? To those who ask, there is only but one answer:

Behold the uplifted Saviour, the spotless Lamb of God, and accept His all-sufficient merits which it is your privilege to claim.

This is what it means to look and live!

This is the only way the sinner can be saved, that is, the only way he can attain to rigtheousness.

sky

[fccool]

Quote:

1.David's numbering Jerusalem.

2.God's destruction of Jerusalem.

3.God's sending fiery serpents upon the Israelites.

4.God's sending strong delusion.

These are a few that immediately come to mind, in addition to God's killing Saul. God's sending lying spirits to Ahab is another. There are lots of these. How do you know when God is doing the thing He is portrayed as doing or not?

Why would Biblical narrative be so unclear? How can you be sure that Jesus says what He says at all? We can ascribe completely different meaning to virtually everything in that case. Rather than seeing the events as causal consequences, you decide to keep God out of these events completely.

I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.

Why use the flashlight to view the brightness of the sun?

[skyblue888]

Quote:

1.David's numbering Jerusalem.

2.God's destruction of Jerusalem.

3.God's sending fiery serpents upon the Israelites.

4.God's sending strong delusion.

These are a few that immediately come to mind, in addition to God's killing Saul. God's sending lying spirits to Ahab is another. There are lots of these. How do you know when God is doing the thing He is portrayed as doing or not?

pnatt

___________________________________________

Why would Biblical narrative be so unclear? How can you be sure that Jesus says what He says at all? We can ascribe completely different meaning to virtually everything in that case. Rather than seeing the events as causal consequences, you decide to keep God out of these events completely.

I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.

fcool

___________________________________

fcool, it's not exactly about the biblical narrative being so unclear but about applying the principles of interpretation as they have been revealed to us. It is not left to you or to me or to any individual for that matter to ascribe private meaning to virtually everything we read in the Bible. It is not about leaving God out of the events at all but about understanding the principles of His dealing with men which are ever the same, and always keeping in mind what He Himself has said, "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways My ways, says the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts." Isa.55:8,9.

First we need to start with those events where we have been given an explanation. In the case of Saul, the Bible is clear. Saul killed himself by falling on his sword and yet it is written that God slew him. So what is clear is that when we read that God slew Saul it is to be understood that this judgment upon him did not come directly out from the Lord but that Saul no longer had God's protecting care and he was left unprotected. There was nothing that God could do to save him for Saul had forfeited His protection. And this is confirmed by the words of God's servant, that "God leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves to reap that which they have sown." That "The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last rwithdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan." G.C.36.

From this event alone we may know and understand how God creates darkness (physical or spiritual darkness) and how He brings calamities and disasters upon individuals as well as upon whole cities and nations just as we may know and understand how He sent fiery serpents to the Israelites or how He sends strong delusions to those who do not have the love of the truth, just to mention these.

sky

[pnattmbtc]

Or something like this. "Hey, I have this friend, he does sooo much for me, and gives me all these things...I just try to not look at the fact that he will kill anyone who doesn't want to be friends with him, which also includes myself. But hey, I just don't think about that!"

I've wondered about eternal punishment in this light. That is, before I became an Adventist, I didn't really think about this. When I was studying Adventism, one of the things I had to think about was the State of the Dead. There were a lot of texts and arguments on both sides of the issue, so I was trying to figure out who was right, and how I should go about doing so. One of the things that weighed heavily on my mind regarded God's character. The Adventist view seemed much more in harmony with my perception of God.

Anyway, the point in regards to your comment is that this wasn't really something I had thought about. If one really thinks about the implications of God's burning people alive, that's rather problematic, to put it in an understated way.

[pnattmbtc]

I wonder what you will say when the time comes for God to finally destroy the wicked? Maybe it will be something like:

Oh wow Lord, I didn't think you would actually do it! Yes, .......Yes I know you said you would, but I didn't think you actually meant that you would do it. Yes I know it's in the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, but....Yes I know you said it over and over through virtually every prophet that ever lived. ....Yes I know Ellen White even said it in very plain language, yes but we ran it through a prism....but....but...But these people over here convinced me that you didn't really mean it. They told me it was some kind of code language, that really doesn't mean what it says. They taught me a whole different way to interpret the Bible. You know how the Bible says that you slew Saul but you really didn't? What?...... Well yes I guess I have re-structured my whole belief system around a few appearant contradictions. Wait, what do you mean hoodwinked....Allowed my faith to be hi-jacked, what? No, wait, I didn't know it was a lie, they convinced me....Ohhhh NO!!!

Reading this is sad.

The real issue has to do with God's character. You have a view of God's character which allows you to believe the things you do, things which present God to be a very different being than Jesus Christ. At least, I have no idea how you could reconcile your view of God with Jesus Christ's life and teaching. According to the SOP, all that we can know of God was revealed in the life and teaching of His Son. Where were these attributes of God's character revealed by Christ?

How did Christ live? How did *He* treat *His* enemies? He loved them and died for them!

He had every opportunity to destroy them, as He explained to Peter. He explained that He had legions of angels at His command. But violence is not God's way.

There is *nothing* in Jesus' life and teachings that portrays God or God's Kingdom as being about violence.

When it was suggested to Jesus that He burn His enemies, what was His response? "You know not of what spirit you are." And, indeed, this is the problem.

[pnattmbtc]

sky, I'm reposting this, as I didn't get a response.

Quote:

How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8. (DA 175)

sky, I've asked you the following a number of times, without a response, as far as I can recall. Do you see this paragraph as saying the same thing as what you're talking about? (appropriating the merits of Christ).

[pnattmbtc]

What must I do to be saved? To those who ask, there is only but one answer:

Behold the uplifted Saviour, the spotless Lamb of God, and accept His all-sufficient merits which it is your privilege to claim.

This is what it means to look and live!

This is the only way the sinner can be saved, that is, the only way he can attain to rigtheousness.

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

p:1.David's numbering Jerusalem.

2.God's destruction of Jerusalem.

3.God's sending fiery serpents upon the Israelites.

4.God's sending strong delusion.

These are a few that immediately come to mind, in addition to God's killing Saul. God's sending lying spirits to Ahab is another. There are lots of these. How do you know when God is doing the thing He is portrayed as doing or not?

f:Why would Biblical narrative be so unclear?

We find the Biblical narrative to be unclear because we don't understand God's character or His principles. Jesus Christ didn't find it unclear. I don't think the problem is so much with the Biblical narrative, but with we ourselves.

Quote:

How can you be sure that Jesus says what He says at all?

By faith. I'm assuming God wants us to know the truth, and has communicated the truth that He wants us to know through His Son.

Quote:

We can ascribe completely different meaning to virtually everything in that case.

In what case?

Quote:

Rather than seeing the events as causal consequences, you decide to keep God out of these events completely.

God was in the events in accordance with His character. God doesn't do evil, but fights against it. How God was in these events is what Jesus Christ demonstrated by His life and teachings.

Quote:

I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.

Which means what? That God does evil? Or permits it to occur? Surely the latter.

We see what this means by considering the life and teachings of Jesus Christ.

Quote:

Why use the flashlight to view the brightness of the sun?

Indeed! The "brightness of the sun" is none other than Jesus Christ. What was Jesus Christ like? That's how God is. What did Jesus Christ say? This is what God says. What did Jesus Christ do? This is what God does.

[fccool]

Quote:

Which means what? That God does evil? Or permits it to occur? Surely the latter. We see what this means by considering the life and teachings of Jesus Christ.

How do the wicked burn up in the end? Is it merely natural events that are allowed to be taken place. I don't think so. Likewise with the flood. It was God's direct action that flooded the world. Will you also ascribe "God let it happen" to it? If God let it happen, then who caused it?

[Guest]

If I stand by and let somebody get beat to death, when I could easily have stopped it just by lifting a finger, or speaking a word, am I not just as responsible as the one who did the beating?

Next you'll say God was powerless to stop it, even if he wanted to. Because the person placed himself outside of God's protection.

I know the drill. The problem with that is that you can't apply that to every situation under the sun. When God says He will destroy evil, He doesn't mean that He's going to wait until Satan finally gets around to destroying himself.

If that's what you want to believe, fine. But when you start trying to teach others that the Bible doesn't really mean what it says, or Ellen White either for that matter. Then you are on dangerous ground.

[Guest]

How do the wicked burn up in the end? Is it merely natural events that are allowed to be taken place. I don't think so. Likewise with the flood. It was God's direct action that flooded the world. Will you also ascribe "God let it happen" to it? If God let it happen, then who caused it?

You're exactly right FC. And to say otherwise is just a twisted way for someone to set themselves above the written word of God. It's presumption to the highest degree.

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: sky

What must I do to be saved? To those who ask, there is only but one answer:

Behold the uplifted Saviour, the spotless Lamb of God, and accept His all-sufficient merits which it is your privilege to claim.

This is what it means to look and live!

This is the only way the sinner can be saved, that is, the only way he can attain to rigtheousness.

Here's the DA paragraph I've quoted:

Quote:

How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul.

This explains beholding the uplifted Savior in terms of the light shining from the cross which reveals the love of God. There's nothing here which talks about claiming Christ's merits. I'm suggesting that the person who experiences this above paragraph (which results in salvation, as it's in response to the question, "How, then, are we to be saved?") is claiming the merits of an all-sufficient Savior, even though this language is not used.

What really needs to be considered is what is the problem that beholding Christ addresses? To get at this I've been asking about the above paragraph, which explains clearly how one is saved.

One is saved by responding to the love of God shining from the cross. Obviously this is a metaphor. What does the metaphor mean? It means that the cross of Christ reveals in a most clear way the love of God. This love, or goodness (as Romans 2:4 puts it), leads us to repentance. If we do not resist the drawing, we will repent and be saved.

So repentance and salvation depend upon responding to, as opposed to resisting, the love of God, which is especially clearly revealed at the cross.

__________________________________________________________________________

Pnatt, have you never read these words: "It is not enough to perceive the loving-kindness of God, to see the benevolence, the fatherly tenderness of His character. It is not enough to discern the wisdom and justice of His law, to see that it is founded upon the eternal principle of love." Steps to Christ, p.19.

You know that I do appreciate what you are sharing regarding the character of God and the principles of His dealing with men which are ever the same. Yet it is not enough to kwow that He is love and that He does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression. The love revealed at the cross shows that Jesus was treated as we deserve that we might be treated as He deserves. This is the love that should attrack the sinner, that the Father wishes to treat him according to the merits of His Son if he will appropriate them to himself.

Unless we daily apply to the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour we cannot be saved!

"Unless he makes it his lifebusiness to behold the uplifted Saviour and to accept His merits which it is his privilege to claim, the sinner CAN NO MORE BE SAVED than Peter could walk upon the water unless he kept his eyes fixed steadily upon Jesus." T.M.93.

sky

[Lutz13]

The love revealed at the cross shows that Jesus was treated as we deserve that we might be treated as He deserves.

I have a hard time with this thought. Why do I deserve to be tormented and tortured to death? Did I choose to be born into this garbage? No!

How hard is it to realize that we are all sick. Isaiah 1:5 makes it pretty clear that "the whole head is sick." Christ had to die so that we would trust Him, not to appease God the Father.

So "applying" these merits does nothing to change me. Jesus wasn't my substitute, God doesn't magically see Jesus when He sees me. He sees me, a sick child who He wants to heal, but I have to trust Him first.

[skyblue888]

Lutz, was not Jesus without sin? did He not live a sinless life in sinful flesh? yet He had to suffer and died but not for Himself; all His sufferings were for us; all His merits and righteousness are open to fallen man, presented to him as a gift to be appropriated by faith. If He was not our substitute, then what was He?

"He was made to be sin that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." 2 Cor.5:21

"The intercession of Christ in our behalf is that of presenting His divine merits in the offering of Himself to the Father as our Substitute and Surety; for He ascended up on High to make atonement for our transgressions." E.G. White, Signs of the Times, July 4, 1892.

It was not to appease God that Christ suffered and died but to satisfy the demands of the broken law. God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son so that anyone that comes to Him trusting wholly in the merits of the sufferings endured to reconcile man to God, would not perish but receive pardon and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

"God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself." 2 Cor.5:19.

sky

"Jesus was treated as we deserve that we might be treated as He deserves." Desire of Ages, p.25.

"Christ places His own merits upon man and thus elevates him in the scales of moral value with God." Our Father Cares, p.121.

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

Pnatt, have you never read these words: "It is not enough to perceive the loving-kindness of God, to see the benevolence, the fatherly tenderness of His character. It is not enough to discern the wisdom and justice of His law, to see that it is founded upon the eternal principle of love." Steps to Christ, p.19.

You know that I do appreciate what you are sharing regarding the character of God and the principles of His dealing with men which are ever the same. Yet it is not enough to kwow that He is love and that He does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression. The love revealed at the cross shows that Jesus was treated as we deserve that we might be treated as He deserves. This is the love that should attrack the sinner, that the Father wishes to treat him according to the merits of His Son if he will appropriate them to himself.

Unless we daily apply to the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour we cannot be saved!

"Unless he makes it his lifebusiness to behold the uplifted Saviour and to accept His merits which it is his privilege to claim, the sinner CAN NO MORE BE SAVED than Peter could walk upon the water unless he kept his eyes fixed steadily upon Jesus." T.M.93.

sky, I'm asking you a direct yes/no question. I've been asking you this for some time.

The DA quote asks the question, "How, then, are we to be saved?" Here is the answer provided:

Quote:

As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul.

So this *is* enough. The prophet asked the question, and then answered the question with the above. Therefore the above is an adequate answer, right?

So if "appropriating the merits of Christ" is what we must do to be saved, and the above is what we must do to be saved, then the two must be equivalent, right? Either that, or EGW's answer to her own question is inadequate, which I would find hard to swallow.

So if "appropriating the merits of Christ" means something other than the above, then I see a problem here, in terms of what man must do to be saved. This is well reasoned, isn't it? This is why I've been asking you the yes/no question, do you believe that "appropriating the merits of Christ" means something different than the above.

I don't see that there are two issues here, one being the character of God, and the other being what one must do to be saved. It's just one issue, as I see things. I don't know what you mean by "appropriating the merits of Christ." If you mean something other than the above DA paragraph, something which doesn't directly involve God's character, this seems problematic to me. There's no doubt that the DA quote is directly involving God's character. "Appropriating the merits of Christ" could be easily understood as meaning something different than the DA quote. I can go into more detail regarding how, if desired.

[pnattmbtc]

p:Which means what? That God does evil? Or permits it to occur? Surely the latter. We see what this means by considering the life and teachings of Jesus Christ.

f:How do the wicked burn up in the end?