Adventists' "right arm" stymied by our anti-gay stand in Toronto

[abelisle]

Seems like those Canadian vegetarians aren't taking too kindly by our vigorous anti-gay official church stand.

Is our religious "liberty" fear mongering undercutting our witness potential with our health ministry?

http://www.spectrummagazine.org/blog/201...hurch_statement

Isn't it interesting to see how our Biblicaly sound but lacking in love policy to a marginalized portion of our society affects our message as a whole?

Our "we hate the sin but love the sinner" attitude surely isn't making waves in Toronto!

I wonder what other future ramifications for our strident anti-homosexual church-view lies in store for us?

Read the article and see if it rings true for you.

Alex

[Dr. Shane]

Isn't it interesting to see how our Biblicaly sound but lacking in love policy to a marginalized portion of our society affects our message as a whole?

[Gerr]

Are we now to embrace the sin AND the sinner so that we can be accepted by the world?

I used to be a Spectrum subscriber. I stopped reading it many years ago. While I don't swallow everything the church puts out, I found the articles in it unbalancely critical to the positions of the church. This is just another of those articles that confirms what I have felt for a long time.

[Dr. Shane]

We do have to be very careful of those that constantly accuse the brothers of wrong doing. Satan is the "accuser of our brethren" (Rev. 12:10).

[Gregory Matthews]

Shane said:

Quote:

Excluding Adventists from this vegetarian fair is exactly the violation of religious liberty that Adventists are rightly concerned about. The Toronto Vegetarian Association is basically telling the Adventist church that we need to change our doctrine in order to have a table at their fair. I wonder if they realize we also believe that the papacy is the anti-christ. They might consider that to be an offensive doctrine and insist that we change that doctrine too. This is why so many Adventists are concerned about the clash of gay rights and religious liberty.

How so? I assume that the TVA is a private organizaiton and not a government organizaiton? On that basis, do they not have a right to promote their own agenda and exclude who they believe do not meet the objectives of their agenda.

If we were to have a SDA book fair, to promote the sale of SDA books, would you argue that we would have to include an organizaiton that produced New Age books even if that organizatoon had a good vegitarian cookbook?

[Dr. Shane]

How so?

[Gordon1]

It's a common handicap for a denomination: required policy statements. Still Alex, the GC statements seem less vigorous, strident or absolute than the Bible, which prescribes stoning - or corporately - sulphur balls from the sky.

Whether or not the official church statements are well-advised, in general God's people should have no qualms declaring the aspects of their faith, along with their reasons. Homosexuality is not a trivial matter. John the Baptist lost his head for calling sin by its name but lost no influence with the world. Nor was he lacking love.

Meat, fish and dairy were common foods throughout the Bible, but homosexuality was never condoned. In a few short years the western world has embraced and championed homosexuality, and now the churches follow suit. On the heels In the heels of women pastors, openly gay pastors will soon be in SDA pulpits. This may become acceptable to 'open-minded' Adventists in the first world. Will your voice be for or against?

But as the Veg society conceded, individuals or SDAs working through other groups would be welcome. So then Alex, all you have is a right arm, no body.

Or not the body you're hoping to showcase.

[GreatLakesGramma]

Just like privately owned restaurants use to refuse to serve Irish Catholics. Being privately owned doesn't mean they can't violate religious liberty.

That is not a good analogy. The organization in question wants to serve everyone who wants to come, and allow all "customers" to feel welcome. That's the exact opposite of a restaurant refusing to serve somebody. They have a right to exclude exhibitors that don't meet their requirements.

But I don't agree with the author of the article. We do no one any favors by accepting what the Bible condemns. We should treat others with respect and courtesy, and respect their right to make their own choices, but to turn our backs on God's clearly defined standards of right and wrong is to betray our Lord and Savior. If we get excluded from such events, so be it. The way we each treat other individuals is much more significant to our church's relationship with society than its official policy statement is. Getting all wound up about being excluded is NOT helpful in any respect. Taking it graciously would be more appropriate.

[Neil D]

Are we now to embrace the sin AND the sinner so that we can be accepted by the world?

I used to be a Spectrum subscriber. I stopped reading it many years ago. While I don't swallow everything the church puts out, I found the articles in it unbalancely critical to the positions of the church. This is just another of those articles that confirms what I have felt for a long time.

If you continue to measure the world by who is sinning and who is the sinner, then the world will continue to exist and will never understand the love of God.....

If however, you measure the world by love, the words "sin" and "sinner" will never be in your vocabulary....to anyone...

[Dr. Shane]

That is not a good analogy. The organization in question wants to serve everyone who wants to come, and allow all "customers" to feel welcome.

Discrimination against blacks would be a better example? I suppose that some restaurants in the south that excluded blacks did so because some of their customers didn't like eating in the same restaurants with black people. OK, I can see that. The Toronto Vegetarian Association excludes Adventists for the same reason that restaurants in the south excluded blacks. Some customers going to the food fair don't want to see Adventists there.

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Are we now to embrace the sin AND the sinner so that we can be accepted by the world?

I used to be a Spectrum subscriber. I stopped reading it many years ago. While I don't swallow everything the church puts out, I found the articles in it unbalancely critical to the positions of the church. This is just another of those articles that confirms what I have felt for a long time.

If you continue to measure the world by who is sinning and who is the sinner, then the world will continue to exist and will never understand the love of God.....

If however, you measure the world by love, the words "sin" and "sinner" will never be in your vocabulary....to anyone...

Seems to me that the loving thing to do for a person who is hell-bent on eternal self-destruction is to help them understand their peril. If the wages of sin is death, and homosex is a sin, then why not point the sinner to the escape hatch? "It is not the healthy who need a doctor".

[doug yowell]

Are we now to embrace the sin AND the sinner so that we can be accepted by the world?

I used to be a Spectrum subscriber. I stopped reading it many years ago. While I don't swallow everything the church puts out, I found the articles in it unbalancely critical to the positions of the church. This is just another of those articles that confirms what I have felt for a long time.

What!! Spectrum unbalanced and critical?? How can you say such a thing,Gerry?

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: GreatLakesGramma

That is not a good analogy. The organization in question wants to serve everyone who wants to come, and allow all "customers" to feel welcome.

Discrimination against blacks would be a better example? I suppose that some restaurants in the south that excluded blacks did so because some of their customers didn't like eating in the same restaurants with black people. OK, I can see that. The Toronto Vegetarian Association excludes Adventists for the same reason that restaurants in the south excluded blacks. Some customers going to the food fair don't want to see Adventists there.

Does anybody really care what the TVA does? Besides, they're from Canada for Pete's sake!Whatdaya expect?

[doug yowell]

Quote:

In the heels of women pastors, openly gay pastors will soon be in SDA pulpits.

Well, now we know how you feel about women that listen to God differently than you!!!

The sky is falling, the sky is falling, help me...help me! Hello honey, this is God, wait a moment while I get rid of my feminine side and my heels. Now just what is it you need help with???? Where did you go.....don't need help any longer! Oh, my!!!

Relax CoAspen.If you're not a pastor,the gays won't use your heels to preach in.

[John317]

Seems like those Canadian vegetarians aren't taking too kindly by our vigorous anti-gay official church stand.

From the article:

Quote:

"... the Toronto Vegetarian Association must take issue with the public statements of the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists regarding homosexuality. It has been brought to our attention that the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists is "opposed to homosexual practices and relationships,"

Do you believe we ought to change our doctrines in regard to homosexual practices and instead of opposing them, we should support them?

They have every right of course to disagree with the church about homosexuality, but I don't think they're right to try to change the church by using the boycott, and I certainly hope the church doesn't let such techniques change the church's position on this or on any other belief. If we don't have the courage of our convictions in the face of losing a table at the Toronto Vegetarian Association, what will we do as a church and as individuals when we are faced with far more serious consequences for holding up Bible truth?

[John317]

In the heels of women pastors, openly gay pastors will soon be in SDA pulpits.

Originally Posted By: CoAspen

The sky is falling, the sky is falling, help me...help me! Hello honey, this is God...

Do you support or oppose having gay SDA pastors?

[Gregory Matthews]

The SDA Chruch has a right to exclude from ministry practicing homosexuals.

The SDA Church has a right to exclude from ministry heterosexuals who are sexually active with persons who are not their spouses.

[Gregory Matthews]

Shane said:

Quote:

Making the simple all that much more simpler... Let me know if there is anything else I can explain.

That comes across to me as patronizing.

[John317]

[Gerr]

Quote:

What!! Spectrum unbalanced and critical?? How can you say such a thing,Gerry?

That was just my observation. I don't mind criticisms. It's a healthy thing to have them. But in my view, there had not been a balanced presentation of both sides of the issue. Maybe it has changed. Do you subscribe to it?

[Gerr]

We do have to be very careful of those that constantly accuse the brothers of wrong doing. Satan is the "accuser of our brethren" (Rev. 12:10).

I was only expressing my own observation. Perhaps it has changed. Do you subscribe to Spectrum?

[doug yowell]

Quote:

What!! Spectrum unbalanced and critical?? How can you say such a thing,Gerry?

That was just my observation. I don't mind criticisms. It's a healthy thing to have them. But in my view, there had not been a balanced presentation of both sides of the issue. Maybe it has changed. Do you subscribe to it?

Spectrum,Adventist Today, Proclamation are dedicated to unbalanced criticism (don't forget Pilgrim's Rest). Like you, I don't subscribe,but please don't mention this to anyone,I want to appear open minded.

[Dr. Shane]

I nearly got caught up into an off-shoot organization when I was in college. I try to avoid those organizations today. They brought me no peace and I don't see any peace and serenity in the people involved with them. I avoid any publications by off-shoot ministries that are critical of the Adventist church. I am more than willing to read criticisms made by other denominations that disagree with us but the off-shoot groups have an ax to grind and I am not going to get sucked into that. I value my peace of mind too much for that.

[SivartM]

Spectrum is... an offshoot? That's a new one.

[Guest]

Are you up really early, or really late?