Christians and proposed laws that are considered immoral.

[doug yowell]

Quote:

Or the fact that the Bible states that when God gives up a people they turn to homosexual behaviour?

Refresh my memory...where is this again?

You'll be a better man for it. Refresh your own memory, use a concordance. Here's a hint;-----NT.

[Gerr]

Should they be granted the right to marry, I would refuse as a clergyperson to marry them, which is a civil right that I maintain.

How can you as a clergyman vote for/endorse a law and then refuse to perform the rite? I see a wide disconnect here.

[Gregory Matthews]

I am not required to do everyting that the law allows me to do.

I am willing to give others the freedom to do what I will not do.

My refusal to do a wedding service for a homosexual couple stems from my personal understanding of what God wants of me. I do not impose that understanding on others. God has given them freedom and so do I.

[Dr. Shane]

Each of us has the freedom to sin regardless what laws the civil government may pass. God gives us the freedom to sin. If one really wants to call that freedom. Actually, I think the Bible actually teaches that sin enslaves and truth liberates.

[SivartM]

Then all sin (as defined by the average conservative Protestant Christian in America) should be illegal, not just gay marriage. If they can't figure out that gay marriage is a sin, who knows what they might do?

[Dr. Shane]

We cannot use just Protestant theology to pass laws without violating religious liberty. If we do that, we must pass Sunday laws forbidding people from working on Sunday. I don't think anyone here is suggesting that.

[SivartM]

Then whose theology do we use to determine the laws?

[Dr. Shane]

The basic rule is that government has authority to pass laws to regulate behavior between people. Government does not have authority to pass laws to regulate behavior between a person and his or her God. That is a starting point.

In a democracy, the laws will reflect the collective values of the people. Certainly religion will influence that. There is no getting away from that. Our tax laws, bankruptcy laws and even traffic laws are influenced by religion.

The concern in a democracy is that the rights of minorities are protected. That issue brings to rise what defines a minority. Certainly Irish beer drinkers are a minority. However minority status has not been granted to them. Minority states has been granted on the basis of race, sex (male or female), age and religion. In many circumstances, Seventh-day Adventists receive protection from our minority status.

[Neil D]

doug yowell stated

Quote:

Or the fact that the Bible states that when God gives up a people they turn to homosexual behaviour?

Refresh my memory...where is this again?

You'll be a better man for it. Refresh your own memory, use a concordance. Here's a hint;-----NT.

Oooo...I suppose I could say that, after looking and not finding it, that it doesn't exist and then make all sorts of accusations ...

.....but that makes such a big stink or drama.....I've done drama, and am not that into it anymore...

So, I will ask again, I will ask, where is this text again?

...and you will be known as a brother who helped educate another.....

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: Gregory

Should they be granted the right to marry, I would refuse as a clergyperson to marry them, which is a civil right that I maintain.

How can you as a clergyman vote for/endorse a law and then refuse to perform the rite? I see a wide disconnect here.

Puzzling, yes.

[doug yowell]

I am not required to do everyting that the law allows me to do.

I am willing to give others the freedom to do what I will not do.

My refusal to do a wedding service for a homosexual couple stems from my personal understanding of what God wants of me. I do not impose that understanding on others. God has given them freedom and so do I.

Wouldn't this be like saying that you oppose pornography and then giving your son a gift subscription to cinema xxx for Christmas? (With the stipulation that you,wouldn't watch it)

[Gerr]

Look in Rom 1.

[Neil D]

26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones.

Quote:

There are some important and major differences between begging to be like everyone else and demanding to be like no one else, don't you think? How does the fact that Samuel was against the change and you are for it figure in to your rationale? Or the fact that the Bible states that when God gives up a people they turn to homosexual behaviour?Aren't those significant differences?Or that Samuel received direct instruction from God to allow(not promote) their decision?Or....?

I don't know...I get a different feeling/thought concept from your passage rather than what the bible states....If that passage is what you are refering to...

[Gerr]

If I recall the post correctly, Doug may have had it a little backwards. "God gave them up" because of their perversions, not - they became sexually perverted because God gave them up.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gregory Matthews

The Bible does not tell me directly how I should relate to the civil laws of society that may not fully reflect the will of God.

"We should obey God rather than man?""Have no fellowship with unfruitful works of darkness,but rather expose them?""Righteousness exalts a nation but sin is a reproach to any people?""He who justifies the wicked,and he who condemns the just,are both alike an abomination to the Lord?""A prudent man forsees evil and hides himself, but the simple pass on and are punished?"

Exactly.

[Twilight]

God gave us humans the right to sin. We should not take that right away from people.

No...

God allows us the option to sin.

It is not a "right"...

[Twilight]

Isn't it interesting that we can respect everyones right to impact law in a country, except Christians rights?

We have imbibed the idea that it is wrong to discriminate.

God discriminates.

It is not wrong to discriminate against evil...

[BobRyan]

What is to be a Christian's attitude towards a proposed enactment of a law that he/she considers immoral/sinful? For instance, many Christians consider legalizing addictive drugs which are presently considered illegal, or same sex marriages, or polygamy, etc. This is NOT a discussion about a particular immoral/sinful practice, it is rather a discussion about the attitude/position a Christians takes. Can a Christian consider something sinful/immoral and yet as a matter of public policy endorse it? How?

In the 19th century the Adventist Church was very politically active fighting against immoral laws and practices - such as slavery (value of human life) and the sale of alcohol (right to privacy).

We keep thinking that these issues only came up recently - they have been around for a long time - we already have good sound advice on what our obligation is in this case.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

As a side note -

Quote:

Satan gathered the fallen angels together to devise some way of doing the most possible evil to the human family. One proposition after another was made, till finally Satan himself thought of a plan. He would take the fruit of the vine, also wheat, and other things given by God as food, and would convert them into poisons, which would ruin man's physical, mental, and moral powers, and so overcome the senses that Satan should have full control. Under the influence of liquor, men would be led to commit crimes of all kinds. Through perverted appetite the world would be made corrupt. By leading men to drink alcohol, Satan would cause them to descend lower and lower in the scale. {RH, April 16, 1901 par. 7}

Satan has succeeded in turning the world from God. The blessings provided in God's love and mercy he has turned into a deadly curse. He has filled men with a craving for liquor and tobacco. This appetite, which has no foundation in nature, has destroyed its millions, yet it is indulged by high and low, rich and poor. Too often those appointed to guard the interests of the people are under the power of this appetite. {RH, April 16, 1901 par. 8}

Not only is the evil of intemperance allowed and sanctioned in Christian lands; the curse is carried to heathen nations. Poor, unenlightened savages, ignorant of God, are taught to ask for liquor. So hardened have professed Christians become that they care not that the liquor curse is introduced into the dark regions of idolatry. {RH, April 16, 1901 par. 9}

in Christ,

Bob

[Dr. Shane]

The "right" to sin, even if there is such an animal, doesn't mean the civil government shouldn't ban sin when it is bad for society as a whole. Many sins are banned. It is ridiculous to say that because God allows man to sin we shouldn't pass a law that bans sinful behavior. That logic makes absolutely no sense.

[Gregory Matthews]

The "right" to sin, even if there is such an animal, doesn't mean the civil government shouldn't ban sin when it is bad for society as a whole. Many sins are banned. It is ridiculous to say that because God allows man to sin we shouldn't pass a law that bans sinful behavior. That logic makes absolutely no sense.

Shane: I agree with your main thought. I have never taken a generalized posiiton as you have expressed it. What I have done is to take a position in regard to a specific issue.

[doug yowell]

Look in Rom 1.

Hey, that's cheating!

[doug yowell]

If I recall the post correctly, Doug may have had it a little backwards. "God gave them up" because of their perversions, not - they became sexually perverted because God gave them up.

Nope. I got it right the first time. Verses 18-23refers to the reason why God gives man up.Verse 24 shows the result.Verse 25 reiterates vs.18-23.Vs26,27 describes again what happens to humanity when God gives them up "to". v.28 restates vs. 18-23&25. Vs.29-32 restates and expands the list of actions that the debased mind will do when God "gives them over..."It's important to see the progression. This is the history of Israel,and now it's beginning to become part of U.S. history. When a people is (purposely) no longer responsive to the claims of God's prompting He gives them over ("to believe the lie").

[doug yowell]

Reading comprehension????

He said 'allow others freedom' to make decisions, not making a decision for them. Your question back to him has nothing to do with subject and is insulting!!

Not a chance. Neither nonsequitous nor insulting. "Allowing others freedom" is not the same as working with others to achieve their freedom.Voting for the legal establishment of same sex marriage is making the decision for the society.(I know you haven't forgotten how laws can be made here in Calif. ...although that seems to be under review) Saying and doing nothing could be considered by today's secular standards as "allowing". God's standards seem to be a little less "flexable". Hence the question from Gerry?

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: Gregory Matthews

God gave us humans the right to sin. We should not take that right away from people.

No...

God allows us the option to sin.

It is not a "right"...

An important distinction. Particularly considering the consequences of our choices.