Submit to Government

[Gail]

That is the heading in my Bible to Romans 13.

Quote:

Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.

Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.

Romans 13:1,2

Thinking about Hitler, Stalin, and even the Roman authorities in Paul's day.

Proverbs 8:15,16: By me kings reign and princes decree justice. By me princes rule, and nobles, even all the judges of the earth.

[Gail]

In light of this, what would be your thoughts to a Islamic government in your country? A Catholic one? A communist one?

[pnattmbtc]

Here's the context immediately preceding:

Quote:

14Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not.

15Rejoice with them that do rejoice, and weep with them that weep.

16Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits.

17Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.

18If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.

19Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

20Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.

21Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good. (Romans 12)

Paul says, "If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men." So this allows for the possibility that it may not be possible.

When Peter was put to the test, he said, "We must obey God rather than man."

If the government would have us do something contrary to what God would have us to do, we must obey God rather than man. However, if it's possible for us to obey God without disobeying the government, then we should do that.

Also it should be understood that God is often presented as doing that which He permits. The governments of this world are not based on the principles of Christ. A government which fully reflects God's will won't be established until after the Millennium which Christ is made king.

[Gerr]

My thoughts also.

[Gail]

Okay, now what about Pharaoh, who the Bible says that God purposely raised him up in order to show His glory (see Romans 9:17)

Interesting thought...

[Gail]

I am wondering if there is a bigger purpose to the picture than we are able to see...

Pharaoh was a base, idolatrous king and God knew it. Yet the Bible says that He put him there in that position of authority.

[wayfinder]

That is only one writers opinion. See if you can corroborate that statement with another writer in the Bible .

[Gail]

That is only one writers opinion. See if you can corroborate that statement with another writer in the Bible .

I'm sorry- Paul was quoting Moses in Exodus 9:17.

Sorry again- that should be v.16 in Exodus 9.

[wayfinder]

Exodus 9:17 "Still you exalt yourself against My people by not letting them go

Romans 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH."

Exodus 9:15 "For if by now I had put forth My hand and struck you and your people with pestilence, you would then have been cut off from the earth.

16 "But, indeed, for this reason I have allowed you to remain, in order to show you My power and in order to proclaim My name through all the earth.

17 "Still you exalt yourself against My people by not letting them go.

Like I said, The writer of Romans changes the words of the text to support his own teaching. What God says is "I(God) did not cut you off(kill you), but allowed you to remain(alive)in order to show you My power. Nowhere does God say He raised Pharaoh up.

[Gail]

In my version, it is the same as quoted in Romans:

16- But indeed for this purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth. NKJV

What version are you using?

In Daniel, he praises God and says that, "He removeth kings and setteth up kings" (NKJV says- "raises up kings") He said that knowing the king that he served was as cruel and idolatrous as any others around.

[John317]

I think we can learn a lot from what the Bible says about God's purpose in raising up Pharaoh. It was God's will that Pharaoh resist God's command to let Israel go free. But the Bible shows us that God is able to work His will without violating people's freedom of choice. Similarly, it was God's will for the little-horn to do what it did during the Dark Ages, when it almost succeeded in getting rid of the Bible. When they did those things, they demonstrated the results of sin and showed the character of Satan in his warfare against Christ and His Church.

But notice that God didn't command Israel to take up arms and do battle against the Egyptians, evil as that power was.

While God requires us to disobey the governments when they command us to do what is contrary to God's law, He doesn't call for His people to take up arms against the governments and resist them with violence. Violent revolution against evil governments is not the responsibility of the church or of Christ's true followers. Our responsibility, rather, is to be an example of Christ and to proclaim the true gospel. We can't do this while killing the very people we should be preaching to.

During times of violence and war, then, God wants His people to remain faithful to Him and not become involved in the violence of this wicked world. I think this is a lesson that He wants SDAs to learn in relation to the present war on terrorism. He doesn't want us to take part in the violence against Muslims or even against terrorists. Rather we are to be an example of Christ's love and proclaim the truth of the gospel to them. This is what it means to be the salt of the earth.

[John317]

Exodus 9:16

But for this purpose I have raised you up, to show you my power, so that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth.

English Standard Version.

The Hebrew (Strongs #5975) means literally, "to make stand." It can be understood to mean either "raise up" or "preserve." In Romans 9: 17, Paul used the same word that is used elsewhere for the raising up of the dead. He evidently understood it to signify "raise up." The NASB translates Exodus 9: 16 as "to remain," although the margin reads, "Lit. stand." It translates Romans 9: 17 the same as the NKJV, NIV, and ESV.

[wayfinder]

John317, I agree with you, that God's purpose for His people is to proclaim the true gospel. The problem is, what you see as the true gospel and what I see as the true gospel are different gospels.

[Gail]

Thanks, John317, I think you "get" what my thoughts were aiming at.

To add: The most powerful or bloodthirsty of the world's kingdoms do not faze God. When you look at the Romans in Paul's time or the little horn power in the Dark/Middle Ages, you also see that the blood of martyrs fueled the gospel message's travels.

I believe that the Holy Spirit attends the hearts in the crowds who witness these lives AND their deaths. Like Paul in the stoning of Stephen, consciences becomes quickened and the way is opened for the reception of Jesus in the heart.

In that way God shows His sovereignty. It's supposed to be "not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit."

Sometimes my thoughts are convoluted but does that make sense?

[John317]

John317, I agree with you, that God's purpose for His people is to proclaim the true gospel. The problem is, what you see as the true gospel and what I see as the true gospel are different gospels.

I agree with you here. There is a difference in our understanding of the "true gospel."

[John317]

Terrific points you make there. How can people whose hearts are being worked on by the Holy Spirit be drawn to Him when they witness Christians trying to kill them rather than being like Jesus?

[Robert]

In my version, it is the same as quoted in Romans:

16- But indeed for this purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth. NKJV

Now read verse 18: Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

Let's understand some basics:

God's love is unconditional. He loves irrespective of a person's looks, status in life, intelligence, etc. He loves with agape. He lives to serve, but He does not coerce or force.

Pharaoh reject God....Therefore God had to remove Himself from his life. He couldn't force His will on Pharaoh. In that respect "He hardened Pharaoh's heart".

Why does God say that? Because in His Sovereignty he has allowed sin....The reason is not important here, but again since He has allowed the development of sin God assumes the responsibility when folks reject Him. But in reality "Pharaoh hardened his own heart".

[Robert]

It was God's will that Pharaoh resist God's command to let Israel go free. But the Bible shows us that God is able to work His will without violating people's freedom of choice.

Now that's nonsense....If God wills it, he violates the will. He made sure Pharaoh rejected Him. This is forcing the will....

You need to understand these statements within the context of God's agape.

"Principle: God sees and describes Himself as doing what He does not prevent." [Light on the dark side of God]

I'd like to say it a bit different: God sees and describes Himself as doing what He does not prevent because of human free will.

Let's say today I willfully reject God. I tell Him to take a hike...get out of my life, I don't even believe in you. Will God force His love on me anyway? No way! What will happen?

Deut 31:17 On that day I will become angry with them and forsake them; I will hide my face from them, and they will be destroyed. Many disasters and difficulties will come upon them, and on that day they will ask, 'Have not these disasters come upon us because our God is not with us?'

Note as humans we view God as angry, but in reality God is saying "why do you forsake me"? "I love you with an everlasting love"!

Hence, His so called wrath is passive.....He gives us up when we reject Him and His love....

[pnattmbtc]

The Bible often presents God as doing that which He permits. God is able to work out His purposes even when people resist Him. But that doesn't mean it is God's will that anyone resists Him. It was God's will that Pharaoh repent and be saved, just like any other human for whom Christ died. Pharaoh acted of his own volition, contrary to God's will, but God worked out His purposes despite that (more than despite, by means of the very thing which was designed to be contrary to God's will).

The cross is the best illustration of this purpose. God did not wish for His Son to be treated as He was, tortured and brutally murdered, but God was able to reveal Himself and accomplish His purposes despite that (or more than despite, by means of the very thing which was designed to be contrary to His will).

[WayneV]

The Bible often presents God as doing that which He permits.

I have seen this stated several times in diverse places by others. No one has yet given me Scripture that shows this as being true. Do you have those passages handy?

Agape`

[pnattmbtc]

I'll mention the events.

1.God killed Saul.

2.God moved David to number Israel.

3.God sent fiery serpents upon the Israelites.

4.God hardened Pharoah's heart.

5.God destroyed Jerusalem (parable of the Murdered Son; parable of the wedding garment)

6.God sent lying spirits to Ahab.

7.God would blind people say they wouldn't see the truth.

8.God would sent strong delusion to those who love not the truth.

There are a few off the top of my head.

[teresaq]

The Bible often presents God as doing that which He permits. God is able to work out His purposes even when people resist Him. But that doesn't mean it is God's will that anyone resists Him. It was God's will that Pharaoh repent and be saved, just like any other human for whom Christ died. Pharaoh acted of his own volition, contrary to God's will, but God worked out His purposes despite that (more than despite, by means of the very thing which was designed to be contrary to God's will).

...

[Guest]

I'll mention the events.

1.God killed Saul.

2.God moved David to number Israel.

3.God sent fiery serpents upon the Israelites.

4.God hardened Pharoah's heart.

5.God destroyed Jerusalem (parable of the Murdered Son; parable of the wedding garment)

6.God sent lying spirits to Ahab.

7.God would blind people say they wouldn't see the truth.

8.God would sent strong delusion to those who love not the truth.

There are a few off the top of my head.

So does it carry forward then, than God will not do anything he has said he will do? Does it mean that God did not send the flood, that he said he would and did? And even gave us a rainbow as a sign that he would never do that again? Was all that some kind of reverse psychology, to teach us that we need to learn how to decide when he will and when he won't do as he says?

And what about Sodom and Gomorrah, and that whole bargaining with Abraham thing? If it was not God that did it, was he bargaining under false pretenses?

[teresaq]

back on topic...i agree in thought, but when it comes to practice i think we sing a completely different tune. fear takes over, unless we truly have had a faith/trust relationship with the Lord.

i also think we can mouth the right words, but be completely oblivious to not walking the talk...

[teresaq]

So does it carry forward then, than God will not do anything he has said he will do? Does it mean that God did not send the flood, ...

this and the rest of your post isnt really dealing with the particular points brought up, and is derailing the topic into yet another merry-go-round that has already been covered elsewhere.

if you wish to start yet another thread on that issue perhaps you should do so, instead of hi-jacking this one.