Submit to Government

[pnattmbtc]

p:I'll mention the events.

1.God killed Saul.

2.God moved David to number Israel.

3.God sent fiery serpents upon the Israelites.

4.God hardened Pharoah's heart.

5.God destroyed Jerusalem (parable of the Murdered Son; parable of the wedding garment)

6.God sent lying spirits to Ahab.

7.God would blind people say they wouldn't see the truth.

8.God would sent strong delusion to those who love not the truth.

There are a few off the top of my head.

R:So does it carry forward then, than God will not do anything he has said he will do?

[WayneV]

Just to be clear, we are talking about the same Jesus who took scourges and drove the money changers from the temple, who called the pharisees vipers and whitewashed tombs, and who said, "Mat 10:33 "But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven. Mat 10:34 "Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. Mat 10:35 "For I came to SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW; Mat 10:36 and A MAN'S ENEMIES WILL BE THE MEMBERS OF HIS HOUSEHOLD. Mat 10:37 "He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. Mat 10:38 "And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me" (NASB)? This is the same Jesus who curses cities, "Mat 11:21 "Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles had occurred in Tyre and Sidon which occurred in you, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. Mat 11:22 "Nevertheless I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you. Mat 11:23 "And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You will descend to Hades; for if the miracles had occurred in Sodom which occurred in you, it would have remained to this day. Mat 11:24 "Nevertheless I say to you that it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for you." This doesn't sound like the God who would do all of the things you listed? I'm just trying to understand.

[Overaged]

No matter what government; you have to submit to them at Stinkom Tax Time. This would be in keeping with the Biblical admonition.

[Robert]

Read this!

[Robert]

And what about Sodom and Gomorrah, and that whole bargaining with Abraham thing? If it was not God that did it, was he bargaining under false pretenses?

How does God destroy....He allows sin to take its course. The wages of sin produces death. If God is the instrument of death, then He must be sin.....

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Read this!

Oh dear...that's way too long for me to read...my attention span is at a low peak.

[Robert]

Just save it to your computer and read it at your leisure.

[pnattmbtc]

Just to be clear, we are talking about the same Jesus who took scourges and drove the money changers from the temple, who called the pharisees vipers and whitewashed tombs, and who said, "Mat 10:33 "But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven. Mat 10:34 "Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. Mat 10:35 "For I came to SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW; Mat 10:36 and A MAN'S ENEMIES WILL BE THE MEMBERS OF HIS HOUSEHOLD. Mat 10:37 "He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. Mat 10:38 "And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me" (NASB)? This is the same Jesus who curses cities, "Mat 11:21 "Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles had occurred in Tyre and Sidon which occurred in you, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. Mat 11:22 "Nevertheless I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you. Mat 11:23 "And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You will descend to Hades; for if the miracles had occurred in Sodom which occurred in you, it would have remained to this day. Mat 11:24 "Nevertheless I say to you that it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for you."

This doesn't sound like the God who would do all of the things you listed?

[WayneV]

pnat,

The negative list that I posted was about Jesus--not so positive. I didn't post O.T. stuff, but things that Jesus said and did.

Agape`

[teresaq]

In my version, it is the same as quoted in Romans:

16- But indeed for this purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth. NKJV

What version are you using?

In Daniel, he praises God and says that, "He removeth kings and setteth up kings" (NKJV says- "raises up kings") He said that knowing the king that he served was as cruel and idolatrous as any others around.

what if we read such verses in the light of other texts, such as,

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

[teresaq]

i suppose it depends on your picture of Jesus, how you picture Him when He did that...

i believe egw had the correct picture when she said this of Jesus after He drove out the money changers,

Quote:

Christ had looked after the fleeing multitude with a heart of the tenderest pity. His heart was filled with grief that the temple service had been polluted, and had misrepresented his character and mission. In his pitying love he longed to save them from their errors. He longed to save the priests and the rulers, who, while claiming to be guardians of the people, had oppressed them, and turned aside the needy from their right. But the priests and the rulers, recovering from their dismay, said, "We will return, and challenge him, and ask him by what authority he has presumed to expel us from the temple." {RH, August 27, 1895 par. 4}

when Jesus wept over jerusalem, it wasnt because He was going to do the horrible things that happened to them, but because He saw the horrible things they would do to each other and bring upon themselves...

[teresaq]

i think another question could be asked, do we have that same love and longing in our soul for others when "proclaiming the truth", or do we feel angry and cold towards them?

[Gordon1]

i think another question could be asked, do we have that same love and longing in our soul for others when "proclaiming the truth", or do we feel angry and cold towards them?

Or do we employ cutting sarcasm, scorn and ridicule to counter another?

There's no love there - only a desire to conquer.

Michael never brought such railing accusations.

[pnattmbtc]

I'm sorry Wayne, but I'm not understanding what your question is.

[Gail]

I think the thread is getting derailed anyhow...

The question is, "In light of the Biblical injunction to submit to governments, how are we then to act?"

About Pharaoh-- Could it be reasonable that God in His foreknowledge, KNEW that Pharaoh would come to the end that he did and that is why He raised him up? He knew that the chain of events would be to His glory. What looked like disaster to God's people was actually the catalyst to bringing them their freedom.

The Scripture talks about the <purpose> of raising that particular Pharaoh to the throne. It sounds like God actually had something in mind in doing so.

[pnattmbtc]

Regarding how we should act, we should obey God rather than man, but, insofar as is possible, live in peace with all. So we should obey the government, if we can do so without disobeying God.

An example of this principle is the instruction we have from the SOP that we should not work on Sunday when this becomes the law. However, if ordered to break the Sabbath command, we must draw the line and disobey the government.

Regarding the other question, that may be better to discuss on a separate thread.

[Overaged]

Pretty hard to make any sense of something this long Robert - what is it's point and how does it speak to this topic?

[teresaq]

my replies are more about the picture of God we may get from this verse...and im probably not helping in giving a better picture...there are those who believe God raised up this particular pharaoh without any regard or care for his soul, just someone to "use". i think that can keep us-me-from seeking the salvation of those around us who appear quite hopeless and hardened...

pharaoh could have surrendered and been "saved" but time after time hardened his heart even more, even to the point, it seems, of not realizing that it was a miracle that the sea had parted and could very well come crashing down on him. sin blinds us to realities--but that seems like we can see it maybe clearly in others but not how our own sins blind us...now im off in another direction.

i guess i would prefer to see it as God continuing His protection of pharaoh in the hopes that pharaoh-and his people- would surrender, but it worked out that Gods mighty works could be shown...which is what you have stated.

in thinking about it, it was pretty hopeless that pharaoh would repent...Gods mighty power to save was shown, not just to the israelites, but to all the nations...

[teresaq]

In light of this, what would be your thoughts to a Islamic government in your country? A Catholic one? A communist one?

does God "ordain" such governments? or allow them because He allows choice? He didnt "ordain" a king for israel, but He allowed it because His people insisted on it.

does God allow such governments because they might be the lesser of two evils?

or does pauls statement have more to do with law and order that is in all governments, tho highly abused many times. pilate and herod-the existing government-saw nothing wrong in Jesus and would have let Him go...

[Overaged]

im probably not helping in giving a better picture...there are those who believe God raised up this particular pharaoh without any regard or care for his soul, just someone to "use". i think that can keep us-me-from seeking the salvation of those around us who appear quite hopeless and hardened...

This has got to be one of the best thoughts I have heard come from this forum in a long t