Post Moderns

[Stan]

The question I have is this..

Do we miss connecting with them

BECAUSE

They are not willing to listen right

OR

Because we are no willing to present right

[SivartM]

Well, I'm listening.

[abelisle]

This reminds me of what Ray Cottrell said in an article entitled 'The Ethos of Adventism' in "Adventist Today" (Mar/Apr 1999)

"The faltering mission of the church to Caucasians (postmoderns) in North America and elsewhere implies that they do not perceive our present witness to the everlasting gospel as relevant to modern life. That was the emphasis of Christ's public ministry. It should be ours."

Whereas our very successful ministry to less developed regions of the world and among minorities in North America reflects the fact that these people recognize the relevance of the church to their aspiration for a better life here and now as well as offering them the hope of a better life in the world to come.

Not until we show how the gospel is relevant to all aspects of personhood as well as the spiritual, do we have anything to offer postmoderns.

As for me, I see the health reform message as probably our best bet for people caught in the maddening rush of our modern world.

Alex

[Bravus]

People might enjoy this SDA sermon contextualising postmodernism. He gets it slightly wrong by linking it to particular ages and historical periods: there are young modernists and old postmodernists. But aside from that he does a very nice job of clarifying the challenges and perspectives. It's about 55 minutes long, so set aside some time: http://media.paradiseadventist.org/audios/Truth%20and%20Post-Modernism.mp3

[Jeannieb43]

This is great. I'm listenng to it now.

Do you know the name of this speaker?

Answer to my own question: It's Jon Paulien.

And following up on the paradiseadventist.org URL, I found that this sermon was presented in January 2008 at the Paradise (CA) Adventist Church.

He's really explaining postmodernism so it can be understood.

[Bravus]

Thanks very much for that, Jeannie: I didn't know who it was, because someone just gave me the link on my blog. I liked the presentation a lot, and think it's helpful for lots of people (including me, of course). It's a handy framework for understanding ourselves and others.

[Jeannieb43]

Jon Paulien is an author and a professor. He taught in the SDA Theological Seminary for many years but has just now transferred to the Religion Dept. at Loma Linda University. I have some of his books; he's a New Testament scholar, among other things.

Thanks for posting this, Bravus.

[phkrause]

Jon Paulien is an author and a professor. He taught in the SDA Theological Seminary for many years but has just now transferred to the Religion Dept. at Loma Linda University. I have some of his books; he's a New Testament scholar, among other things.

Thanks for posting this, Bravus.

And to think I went to school with him. How come I didn't pick up any smart brain matter from him? LOL

[Neil D]

pre-modern POV- The church has the truth. Go to the church for truth...

Reformation- The church has allowed errors to come in and therefore the church does not have the truth. Truth resides in logical statements, and the bible. Truth can be found in your own study

Christian Modernism-...The truth is not found in the church, or government, or institution. The bible is the ultimate source of truth...The Adventist church arose in this era.

Post Modernism- The enlightenment/secular modernism-Truth is not going to be found in church, nor in the bible and can only be found in science, aka the five senses. Confidence in what we know, not in faith....Doctors are trained in evidence based issue...Scientific method was applied to religion....Can you find God thru your five senses?

Concider Science- doubt is injected into the post modern person...IE Quantum Mechanics- an object can occupy 2 places at the same time. wierd science.elusive truth....

Secular post modernism- modernism is a rejection of all prominate basis' for truth . Truth is found in stories and relationships...Truth is elusive....Many truths are out there...When we tell our stories, they contain elements of truth...we all have part of the truth...small parts of truth in the vast sea....

Post moderns see violence in the church...consider Rwanda...prostent church...20% adventist did not prevent tribal genicide...Therefore, church is fatal...The bible is full of violence...The bible is anti-gays, the bible is against women...It is a reaction of where we were....People are looking for new solutions...The bible is NOT the automatic place to find truth...Technology will be smarter than humans and will extinguish humanity....Termantor is a good example...Hopefully, humanity will be saved by stupid software....

A bit of an outline as I listened to that guy that PK went to school with....hopefully, he gets something out of my notes and thus will have learned something from his classmate...

[phkrause]

Neil what would I do without your notes! LOL

Thanks for the material. From what I'm reading I'll stick with pre-modern than, because the Bible is definitely truth. Those that don't think so are in for a rude awakening.

[Neil D]

now the question is how to present hope to the post moderns?

And yes, I am looking for ideas....

[Woody]

by proving it

by doing it

[Neil D]

and by proving it, what would your authority be? Bible...they don't trust it....

and if you are over, I think it's 40?, they don't trust you anyways.......

So, the conclusion of your answer is that you are irrelevant....

Not trying to be mean, Redwood, but honestly, you ain't reaching them....

There has got to be a better way than that....

[Tom Wetmore]

The question I have is this..

Do we miss connecting with them

BECAUSE

They are not willing to listen right

OR

Because we are no willing to present right

It's not that they are not willing to listen right...

It's that we are not listening right to them and willing adjust our presentation.

"I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some."

[Woody]

Jon Paulien is an author and a professor. He taught in the SDA Theological Seminary for many years but has just now transferred to the Religion Dept. at Loma Linda University. I have some of his books; he's a New Testament scholar, among other things.

Yes. Jon Paulien is a real man of God. I like what he does. He gives you the straight Word of God. In fact ... I am watching him right now on the Hope Channel on Direct TV. He might also be on 3 ABN I dunno. I can't get any of the SDA channels on the Adventist Satellite since their satellite move.

[GoLions]

Neil what would I do without your notes! LOL

Thanks for the material. From what I'm reading I'll stick with pre-modern than, because the Bible is definitely truth. Those that don't think so are in for a rude awakening.

Amen!

[GoLions]

by proving it

by doing it

As for proving it, I would say teaching when the opportunity presents itself. By doing it, means living it. This gives us opportunity for teaching it. Then it is ALL Holy Spirit work. We have done our part. We have then been faithful.

[Bravus]

OK, I'll have a go at a coherent response to Stan's original question in a bit, but first just to tie up a few loose ends.

1. I knew who Jon Paulien is, and have admired his work for years, I just didn't know this particular talk was by him, having received it without a label.

2. We each have our worldviews and ways of making sense, and (pk, GoLions and others), telling someone that their whole worldview is simply wrong is not an effective way of sharing the gospel (see the longer post below).

3. It might be just synchronicity, or my post here might have got Stan thinking, but I posted a note about my own postmodern take on things here as part of a discussion a week or two ago, then turned that post into a blog post that has fostered some interesting discussion on my blog: http://www.bravus.com/blog/?p=1994

4. Neil's precis of Jon Paulien's talk is useful, but not complete - I'd strongly encourage people to make the time to listen to the whole talk.

5. As I said above, I think Paulien's talk is excellent and useful, but that he's got some things wrong, particularly by ascribing ages to certain views.

6. It's not that postmoderns don't believe the Bible is true, it's that their notion of what is true is different, and their notion of how one arrives at truth is different. They see the Bible for what it (arguably) is: a huge collection of stories, over hundreds of years, of God's interactions with humanity. They believe that truth resides in those stories, but not in a proof-text way.

[Bravus]

The question I have is this..

Do we miss connecting with {psotmoderns}

BECAUSE

They are not willing to listen right

OR

Because we are not willing to present right

Everyone here knows the enormous love and respect I have for Stan, so my comments are definitely not having a go at Stan. They're an attempt at answering his question, albeit at an oblique angle.

The question, as laid out there, is modernist to the core! That's unsurprising: I understand Stan to be positioning himself in Paulien's 'Christian modernist' group, speaking to others in that group, about how to communicate with postmodernists. But pulling apart the question in terms of its internal logics is one way of addressing the question.

Just a parenthetical side note first: the vocal opponents of Christianity in the media at the moment, like Dawkins and Hitchens and Harris and Dennet, are not postmodernists, they are quite clearly secular modernists. The church also needs a strategy for addressing those kinds of thinkers, but that's a separate issue to be taken up separately from addressing postmodernists. Having the language to clearly distinguish between the two groups is a step forward in itself.

I know one of the challenges I often face - and it's played out nicely in the Comments section of the blog post I linked above - is that my Christian modernist friends respond to my postmodernism as though I was a secular modernist... thereby missing the point.

Again, age is not a helpful indicator. I'm 46 and a postmodernist (of sorts), while my daughter's 20 year old boyfriend is a secular modernist. It's much more a product of education, experience and possibly even personality than it is of age.

OK, back to Stan's question. 'Presenting' is probably shorthand, but it has the connotation of sermons, TV programs and similar one-way communications. 'Sharing' is a much better model for communicating with postmodernists, and that involves listening as much as speaking, and showing an absolutely authentic interest in and desire to understand their story as much as to have them understand yours. If your assumption is that you have the truth and they don't, and the goal is purely for you to transmit and them to receive, you've already lost the battle in terms of communicating with postmoderns. And that's a real challenge.

The other issue in Stan's question that I want to unpack is the idea of 'right' (used in relation to both presenting and listening. Don Polkinghorne has said that one of the central characteristics of postmodern thinking is the shift from 'metaphors of correctness to metaphors of utility'. That is, from the central question being 'is it true?' to 'does it work?' Woody spoke truth in his short post above: show it, be it, do it. Postmoderns are not argued into faith, they are influenced into it by seeing its fruits in the lives of believers.

This is also the key test of any proposed methods for reaching postmoderns with the gospel: does it work? Is what we're currently doing effective? Apparently not. So we can keep proclaiming 'but it's true!' as long as we like. Meanwhile postmoderns are missing out on their birthright...

Final point: people typically don't undergo 'worldview conversion'. Over time our worldviews develop, but the fact remains that there are a large and growing number of postmodern thinkers in the world. Jesus died for them, the gospel is for them, they need salvation. Simply writing them off for having the 'wrong' worldview is not an option. We've already had the 'I have become all things to all men that I might by all means win some' text quoted in this thread, and it's key.

[Neil D]

4. Neil's precis of Jon Paulien's talk is useful, but not complete - I'd strongly encourage people to make the time to listen to the whole talk.

[Looking over at PK] See, that's what you get for copying my notes...You got caught by the teacher! :-)

And folks, while I did make as good a synopsis as I could, I deliberately left out the last half of the talk. And I asked a couple of questions as to how to reach the post moderns deliberately.... Dare I say, there were not many ideas posted that were in the talk....not that many of you took the time to listen, I would say....

And Bravus, while you were giving your views on how to reach the post modernist, Jon does introduce it well, and your talk seems to enlarge on the views on how to reach those that Christ died for...

[Dr. Shane]

Most people have to come to a point in life where they believe they need to make a change before they are willing to accept Christ as their Savior. For the person who thinks they have all the answers and that life is going as good as it should be, I don't see how we can reach them. Pride stands in our way. When a person sees they don't have all the answers and that they need to make changes in their lives, then we have an opening to present Christ to them.

[Bravus]

But not believing that you already have all the answers is the *definition* of postmodernism. Your point is still very much made from 'within' a modernist worldview.

[Dr. Shane]

No. The post-modern believes that all the answers are not there to be had. Pride is their stumbling block like it is with most everyone. It is not normally until there is a crisis in a person's life that they are willing to humble themselves and look to Christ for the answers.

I do not think there is any "right" method we can use to reach a certain group of people that is not being reached. We simply have to look at ourselves each day. We need to humble ourselves. Take inventory of our defects and take these to God in prayer. This needs to be a daily routine. When we allow Christ to live through us in a daily practical manner, others will be drawn to Him. The biggest reason we cannot reach others is because we have too big of issue with pride ourselves.

That is not to say that I don't think we need to be relevant to the society around us. I do believe we should have contemporary worship services. I like the cafe-style Bible studies. I like an active social committee that has movie nights and holiday parties. All those things are good but those things are not going to win hearts to Christ. Those things edify the church. What wins hearts to Christ is allowing Christ to live in us so that we live humbly as the example He gave us.

When people see something wrong in themselves that they know they need to change, and also see our humble Christian lives, they will be drawn to Christ for the solution to their problems. However as long as they think their thinking is right and life is going along pretty good, we have nothing to offer them. The arrogant and prideful are not interested in living a humble life of service to God and fellow man.

[Dr. Shane]

The fastest growing churches in the US are doing basically three things.

1. providing after-school programs and ministering to single moms.

2. providing divorce-care programs

3. providing substance-abuse programs

There are a lot of post-moderns that are single moms. A lot of post-moderns that are divorced. A lot of post-moderns that have substance abuse problems.

God can't work with a man until he is broken. When the man is broken, only God can put him back together. If we want to reach post-moderns, we need to look for the broken ones.

[SivartM]

I think there's a communication issue here... postmoderns aren't people who are young and like coffee shops. Postmodernism is philosophical. It's not synonymous with "contemporary".