Post Moderns

[Dr. Shane]

We had one particular guest preacher who came to our church a total of 7 times over a 3-4 year period, and 7 times he prefaced his sermon (on various topics) by a 10-15 minute rant against homosexuals. Real hellfire-and-brimstone stuff - worded so strongly that it made us all squirm in our seats...

If I were to hear that, I would write to the conference president and complain (with snail mail - not email). I would give my letter about a week and follow it up with a phone call. Hellfire-and-brimstone sermons have no place in Adventist churches. It doesn't matter what the sin is: homosexuality, alcoholism, gossip, gluttony, etc. Adventist preachers that use hellfire-and-brimstone sermons are influenced by other denominations. Adventists believe that God wants to save us from our sins, not punish us for them. That is our message. When God does finally annihilate those that reject all His loving calls to escape sin, the Bible calls it a strange act. Indeed, destroying sinners for God will be a strange act.

[cardw]

I'm not replying to anyone particularly.

If postmodern is valuing "what works" we are really talking about pragmatism. I don't think you can pigeon hole anyone into one camp or the other. That is simply a method to create an us and them category so Christians can label the "enemy." It seems to me a way for Christians to maintain a sense of meaning and purpose.

What I observed with my sons growing up is that they struggled with finding meaning within prosperity.

What I saw with my grand parents and parents is meaning was found in the struggle to survive. Working hard provided meaning by itself because it gave sustenance and allowed life to continue. There were simple constructs that one could follow to feel a part of something greater than one's self.

This is far more difficult when survival isn't that hard. And as one learns more about the complexity of what it means to be good it isn't so clear how to help and engage in the world. One, with good intentions, could just as easily enable great suffering while trying to "help." It has become quite apparent that we need to help intelligently because when we don't we create dependent societies the implode on themselves.

I have observed my sons go through the stage where "everything seems to be vanity" to use the words of Solomon. And this is not solved by having Jesus in your life. That attitude is part of the problem. It's recognized as a form of putting your head in the sand.

This is something that I had to struggle with. This need to make my life meaningful can be a form of narcissism. And it creates miserable people. These themes have been explored by the Greek philosophers and it's truly amazing that we are engaging in the same dialog they did.

Some of the simple things that I have learned work are staying out of judgement, staying out of fear, stop thinking about myself, engage in the world around me in the moment, foster a sense of gratitude, stop comparing myself to others, accept myself and others as we are, don't try to change people, and have a standard of rigorous internal honesty.

Too often these are labelled as new age. They aren't. They have been recognized for thousands of years as effective ways to find happiness. Many of them are in the Bible, but they are rendered ineffective because they are approached as "rules."

The power of pragmatism is that it frees one from trying to be good. And trying to be good is about narcissism or self centeredness, both of which will make you miserable. So all the Christian emphasis on holiness, morality, and other such striving really are vanity.

[phkrause]

I'm not replying to anyone particularly.

If postmodern is valuing "what works" we are really talking about pragmatism. I don't think you can pigeon hole anyone into one camp or the other. That is simply a method to create an us and them category so Christians can label the "enemy." It seems to me a way for Christians to maintain a sense of meaning and purpose.

What I observed with my sons growing up is that they struggled with finding meaning within prosperity.

What I saw with my grand parents and parents is meaning was found in the struggle to survive. Working hard provided meaning by itself because it gave sustenance and allowed life to continue. There were simple constructs that one could follow to feel a part of something greater than one's self.

This is far more difficult when survival isn't that hard. And as one learns more about the complexity of what it means to be good it isn't so clear how to help and engage in the world. One, with good intentions, could just as easily enable great suffering while trying to "help." It has become quite apparent that we need to help intelligently because when we don't we create dependent societies the implode on themselves.

I have observed my sons go through the stage where "everything seems to be vanity" to use the words of Solomon. And this is not solved by having Jesus in your life. That attitude is part of the problem. It's recognized as a form of putting your head in the sand.

This is something that I had to struggle with. This need to make my life meaningful can be a form of narcissism. And it creates miserable people. These themes have been explored by the Greek philosophers and it's truly amazing that we are engaging in the same dialog they did.

Some of the simple things that I have learned work are staying out of judgement, staying out of fear, stop thinking about myself, engage in the world around me in the moment, foster a sense of gratitude, stop comparing myself to others, accept myself and others as we are, don't try to change people, and have a standard of rigorous internal honesty.

Too often these are labelled as new age. They aren't. They have been recognized for thousands of years as effective ways to find happiness. Many of them are in the Bible, but they are rendered ineffective because they are approached as "rules."

The power of pragmatism is that it frees one from trying to be good. And trying to be good is about narcissism or self centeredness, both of which will make you miserable. So all the Christian emphasis on holiness, morality, and other such striving really are vanity.

cardw I really like your response here. And again if I didn't know you, which I don't on a personal level (face to face) but just from what you post, I'd think you were a Christian or at least have that mentality. I really don't agree with your 1st paragraph about christian's labeling others. But maybe in a sense you are right. But than I see all labels to be offensive. I really hated it many people put people into such categories like liberal or conservative, etc. I guess each of us see things a little differently.

[cardw]

cardw I really like your response here. And again if I didn't know you, which I don't on a personal level (face to face) but just from what you post, I'd think you were a Christian or at least have that mentality. I really don't agree with your 1st paragraph about christian's labeling others. But maybe in a sense you are right. But than I see all labels to be offensive. I really hated it many people put people into such categories like liberal or conservative, etc. I guess each of us see things a little differently.

I don't think that Christianity has an exclusive on these values. I can demonstrate that many Christians label anyone who isn't a Christian quite often. You may not, but I don't believe that you are in a majority.

For example someone mentioned Eckhart Tolle. His teaching is simply discounted because he doesn't use the code words Jesus, God, or Holy Scriptures.

"Religious critics have called him the Antichrist for claiming you can save yourself, no God or Jesus required. Secular critics call his ideas and looping ways with language New Age twaddle."

All of these address his teaching from simply reading about him or reading his books. If you try what he teaches you do engage in a different consciousness. Just like Christianity has some insights, so does his writings.

This need for a belief or practice to be right on all counts is unrealistic. This is the essence of the post modern distrust of grand narratives. The distrust is based on evidence that grand narratives eventually form some type of hypocrisy to maintain their claims.

So learning about what works or pragmatism seems to help one engage more successfully with peace and joy. At least that is my experience.

[WayneV]

I am not sure what an "encounter" with Christ looks like. I know Saul encountered Christ on the road to Damascus. If an encounter with Christ is interaction with a devoted Christian, we know that not everyone that interacts with devoted Christians become Christians themselves. So I am not sure what that is and am doubtful that would convert a post-modern unless something else is going on.

Shane,

Let me see if I can give you an idea of what an encounter with Christ looks like. Abraham encountered God when God spoke to him. Moses encountered God through a burning bush. Pharaoh encountered God through Moses and a series of plagues. The children of Israel, during the exodus, encountered God through Moses, a voice like thunder, a pillar of cloud, and a pillar of fire. Jacob encountered God through a dream and a wrestling match. David encountered God through God's prophet. I first encountered God through interactions with devoted Christians, and later through His written word. Some people encounter God with the birth of their first child. Others encounter Him through nature. My point is that the encounter with Christ is unique to the person, time, and circumstance. An encounter with Christ does not always result in someone becoming a Christian. Did everyone who met Christ in the flesh become a follower? Not even close! However, it is not always a crisis when one encounters Christ. Most of the apostles were not in crisis when Jesus called them.

On the other hand, I do believe there is a crisis of faith, which is different from a general mental or physical crisis. A crisis of faith is when one arrives at a point where they must make a decision for or against Christ. Is this what you have in mind?

Agape`

[Dr. Shane]

I would like to propose that it is not necessarily 'crisis' that is the catalyst for one seeking a relationship with Christ. In fact, crisis can actually drive one away from a meaningful, growing, and productive relationship with Christ. Instead, it is an encounter with the living Christ that encourages the seeker.

The "encounter" with Christ may drive a person away from Him too. Some are drawn to Christ when they encounter Him and others are repelled.

Finding person in a crisis and pointing the person to Christ as the solution has been shown to be one of the most effective ways for a church to grow. It is more effective than evangelistic meetings. Substance abuse programs and after-school programs are the two most effective programs in the US for church growth.

[WayneV]

The "encounter" with Christ may drive a person away from Him too. Some are drawn to Christ when they encounter Him and others are repelled.

[Bravus]

If anyone is interested, I have available a pdf (1.8 MB, about 15 pages) of a book chapter by Donald Polkinghorne that does a very nice job of clearly laying out some of the features of postmodernism. I can't legally post a link but if you drop me an email at bravus at gmail dot com I'm happy to send it to you.

[Dr. Shane]

What is your source for these two assertions?

I read that in either the Adventist Review or Adventist World some time back. We discussed it in our local Men's Ministry Group.

[John317]

...all the Christian emphasis on holiness, morality, and other such striving really are vanity.

What do you understand "holiness" to be? Are you using the word biblically or in its popular sense?

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

...all the Christian emphasis on holiness, morality, and other such striving really are vanity.

What do you understand "holiness" to be? Are you using the word biblically or in its popular sense?

The whole idea that one has to strive to be anything is vanity. It implies that one is evaluating oneself in comparison to others or some standard. It still focuses on oneself.

I think it is far better to simply be without rating oneself at all. I would rather focus on making life a better place than to waste time determining if I'm practicing holiness or not.