Should teens be able to sleep later in AM??

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Impact of Delaying School Start Time on Adolescent Sleep, Mood, and Behavior

Owens JA, Belon K, Moss P

Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med. 2010;164:608-614.

Study Summary

Owens and colleagues review evidence suggesting that biological changes during puberty result in adolescents shifting their sleep periods (ie, falling asleep later in the evening), but they still require the same amount of sleep (approximately 9 hours). Many studies have shown that adolescents are generally sleep-deprived, and sleep deprivation is associated with worse academic performance.

This study was conducted in a single school that had both boarding students and day students in 9th-12th grades (total students, 357; 81.5% boarding students). The school had historically begun morning classes at 8:00 am, but during the trial period (January and February 2009) the start time was moved to 8:30. The evening routines for boarding students did not change during the trial period, with "lights-out" at graduated times depending on grade level.

The investigators collected self-completed survey data pre- and postintervention, including a survey of sleep habits, a survey that measured sleepiness, and another survey that assessed whether the student felt that he or she was a "morning" or "evening" person. The investigators also collected objective data on visits to the school health center, missed appointments, tardiness, and breakfast consumption.

More than 75% of the student body completed the surveys (278 students). Fifty-four percent of the students were girls, the mean age was 16.4 years, and > 80% had grades that were "B" or better. The change in classroom start time was associated with an average increase in sleep duration of 45 minutes (95% confidence interval, 27-49). Most of the difference was accounted for by a wake time that was an average of 30 minutes later. In addition, students went to bed an average of 18 minutes earlier. On average, even with the start-time change, 12th graders slept 40 minutes less than 9th graders. The sleep duration of boarding students on school nights did not different significantly from that of day students. Overall, students were much less likely to report rarely/never getting enough sleep or dissatisfaction with the amount of sleep after the time change. The students' assessments of their own sleepiness declined after the change. Health outcomes also improved, with a reduction in the percentage of students who visited the health clinic (15.3% at first survey compared with 4.6% at second survey, P = .03). Fewer missed morning appointments, fewer requests for late passes, and more than a 50% reduction in the percentage of students who used the health center for afternoon respite were also observed after the change in school start time.

The investigators concluded that even a modest delay in the start of the school day is associated with improved mood, health, and alertness in adolescents.

[bonnie]

Isn't it up to the parents to ensure their child gets the physical activity,constructive work as in chores so as to have a good nights sleep and get up early?

Somwhere in the teen years shouldn't some personal responsibility be showing as in regulating their own night time bedtime?

[Bravus]

Wow, synchronicity: I was writing a blog post on a closely related topic this morning! I'll pinch that reference, for which thanks, Pam. I'll post a link to the blog post here when it's done.

[Bravus]

http://www.bravus.com/blog/?p=2015

[Gerr]

Yes. And not just teens but children too. Their circadian rhythm is not geared to the early arousal that is currently practiced to go to school. It is more for the convenience of adults.

[bonnie]

Yes. And not just teens but children too. Their circadian rhythm is not geared to the early arousal that is currently practiced to go to school. It is more for the convenience of adults.

When children are allowed to set their own bedtime you can bet they will have problems getting up.

Children that get the physical activity and a reasonable bedtime generally get enough sleep.

Teenagers like to stay up late. Among our neighbors there is a lot of teenagers.

One has three teenage boys. TV is not allowed when the parents aren't home,certain chores must be down before they go to school. They are the only parents not struggling with students missing the first hour of school and truancy .Summer and winter they spend a great deal of time outdoors.

Our bys had to be up at 5;45 AM every morning for barn chores They learned early to regulate a reasonable bedtime.The wake up time stayed the same no matter when they went to bed

[Bravus]

So what you're saying, bonnie, is that yes, it's possible for parents to force teens out of their natural rhythms. What you haven't really addressed - I guess apart from the notion that there's virtue in the 'discipline' itself - is why it's a good idea to do so. The starting time of school is completely arbitrary: if there are good reasons to change it, it should change.

[Dr. Shane]

I make my kids go to bed early and tell them they are going to be stupid if the stay up too late. I also tell them that by going to bed early they will get an academic advantage on the other students.

[bonnie]

So what you're saying, bonnie, is that yes, it's possible for parents to force teens out of their natural rhythms. What you haven't really addressed - I guess apart from the notion that there's virtue in the 'discipline' itself - is why it's a good idea to do so. The starting time of school is completely arbitrary: if there are good reasons to change it, it should change.

Teens that go to bed at 11:00 pm or later generally will have a hard time getting up.

I guess "force" depends on your belief.

When small our children were not asked when they wanted to go to bed,nor were they asked when they wanted to get up.We were the parents.

Just as our oldest was approaching his teens we lived in a small town. Neighbor kids spent their time running thru town and we knew it was only a short time that ours were trying to do same. We made the decision to move to a farm.It was discussed with the boys but they did not have the final say. Contrary to what some seem to think we were still the parents and had the final say,especially when we knew it was for their best.

The community we moved to was a heavy farming area. A good portion of the teens had chores before school.Were they forced

out of their natural rhythms? It sounds like that is what you are saying.

As our boys got older they did very well with self discipline.A night or two of staying up till 11:00 pm helped them learn quickly that wake up would come at the same time regardless.The animals had to be cared for.

This is not a new theory,it was batted around the couple of years our boys spent in public school.

You may consider it arbitrary.

All the farmers in our community would have had to change the farm routine which is not as easy as non-farmers may think. Most farmers milk early,at least by 6:00AM if not sooner. Milking is done at twelve hour intervals,the later in the morning puts the farmer and his kids in the barn well into the evening.Unexpected upsets in the barn can be expected,sometimes babies or a down cow.

This all has to be taken care of.

is why it's a good idea to do so. The starting time of school is completely arbitrary

It may be arbitrary to you. I don't think parents have a obligation to choose a lifestyle that allows them to go to bed late and sleep late in the morning.

Our boys all worked for their father. He had his own business and worked long hours. He did not choose that profession based on the time the boys wanted to get up. By 5:30 the boys were in the pickup and ready to go.

If that is force to you just for the sake of forcing your kids you will just have to think so.

All four of our boys have done extremely well. They are the christian SDA men we hoped they would become. So if they were "forced" they seem to have done well

[SivartM]

The vast majority of teenagers do not live on farms and have chores that they must do at 6:00 in the morning. To say that they need to keep your schedule is certainly no better than to say that you need to keep theirs. Also, it sounds like you are assuming that teenagers who stay up late do so because they want to party or something. Here in college when I hear about people staying up late it is usually to study for their classes so that they can get good grades.

[bonnie]

The vast majority of teenagers do not live on farms and have chores that they must do at 6:00 in the morning. To say that they need to keep your schedule is certainly no better than to say that you need to keep theirs.

[Outta Here]

Wonder what great leaders we'd have today if they were allowed to follow their own God-given body's circadian rhythms in their youth. Think of the possibilities! Wonder what we'd be like as adults if we were allowed to sleep and rise as the sun does--following again, our bodies' natural sleep patterns.

[bonnie]

Wonder what great leaders we'd have today if they were allowed to follow their own God-given body's circadian rhythms in their youth. Think of the possibilities! Wonder what we'd be like as adults if we were allowed to sleep and rise as the sun does--following again, our bodies' natural sleep patterns.

Personally I believe kids/teenagers learn best by example/experience and when necessary discipline.

Regardless of what may be the current theory floating around and what time their classes start the world does not run to the demands of teenagers

As teenagers they learn pretty quick by the rewards and consequences that result from their decisions. Making the decision to get enough sleep is a fairly simple concept. It does not have to mean a late morning in bed.That can be solved by a earlier bedtime

[Dr. Shane]

Early to bed, early to rise, makes a man healthy, wealthy and wise.

[Stan]

Early to bed, early to rise, and your girl goes out with other guys.

(have not recalled that for years, wonder how many others are hiding on old memory blocks)

[Dr. Shane]

Those are the girls mama warned you about

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Wow, synchronicity: I was writing a blog post on a closely related topic this morning! I'll pinch that reference, for which thanks, Pam. I'll post a link to the blog post here when it's done.

LOL ... Serendipitous!!

Bravus, I read your blog....we have the same traffic problem here when school starts. Students here don't have a school bus anymore, so some walk to school, but most seem to be driven to school by their parents, or else the students drive themselves (that's another story). Starting school later would really help ease the traffic congestion.

I know when I was a teenager, I despised getting up early to go to school. I did much better if I could arrange my school schedule for late morning and afternoon classes. Even an occasional night class in college was better than getting up early!!!

[lazarus]

My son just started middle school. School starts at 9am. His elementary school started at 7:45 am which to me was crazy. I'm glad he has a later start time. He's more relaxed andmore focused. He seems a lot happier with the later start time. It works better for him, it seems.

He's 11 and now he goes to bed at around 8:30 - 9pm. We let him stay up a littler later to watch the first half his "beloved" Cardinals if they are playing. He's up at around 7am and is very good

Our six year old still starts at 7:45 am. We live only 3 minutes form the school so its OK but what if we had to drive 45- 1hour. That used to be the situation. That used to be crazy.

I grew up in the UK and school started 9-915 and finished at 3:15 -3:30 with morning and afternoon recess, thirty minute lunch too! I was quite stunned at how early children start school in the US and how many kids have to go somewhere after school because parents are still at work.

When I moved here in 2002 I woke up one morning wondering why there was the sound of children outside. The sun wasn't even up. I looked outside and they were waiting for the school bus. It was about 6:30am. I couldn't believe that kids were out that early going to school.

I think starting so early adds so much stress to family life especially if both parents work outside the home and have to commute to work. Sometimes parents only have 1-2 hours with their kids before bedtime and its back to the grind again.

Now, I have the advantage of being able to sit with my son and chat. I actually read to him for 20 minutes yesterday, before he went to school!!

[Outta Here]

Originally Posted By: Aubrey

Wonder what great leaders we'd have today if they were allowed to follow their own God-given body's circadian rhythms in their youth. Think of the possibilities! Wonder what we'd be like as adults if we were allowed to sleep and rise as the sun does--following again, our bodies' natural sleep patterns.

Personally I believe kids/teenagers learn best by example/experience and when necessary discipline.

Regardless of what may be the current theory floating around and what time their classes start the world does not run to the demands of teenagers

As teenagers they learn pretty quick by the rewards and consequences that result from their decisions. Making the decision to get enough sleep is a fairly simple concept. It does not have to mean a late morning in bed.That can be solved by a earlier bedtime

I guess God wasn't too smart in giving people circadian rhythms then. Wonder if it's best to train your body when to pee too, instead of listening to "nature's call"?

[Jeannieb43]

http://www.bravus.com/blog/?p=2015

Bravus, I agree with your proposal to reduce traffic congestion in Brisbane. Fraid it wouldn't work, however, in my area -- there are just too too many criminals afoot out there these days, and most parents don't dare send their children out alone to walk to school.

---But the real reason I've responded here, is...

...your comment about Yahoo Answers. I also frequent that site, and it's so blatantly obvious when the questions are posed which are straight out of the students' homework assignments. I always felt like refusing to answer because they needed to look up the answers for themselves. But now I understand your true teacher's heart, and I see you are definitely a "born teacher," and it's great to see that you take time to explain such answers, and you do it often!!

So, thanks! (on behalf of all of us who profit from your explanations).

[bonnie]

[quote name='Aubrey

I guess God wasn't too smart in giving people circadian rhythms then. Wonder if it's best to train your body when to pee too' date=' instead of listening to "nature's call"? [/quote']

I guess that is something you have to take up with God.I have never seen anything biblical about the times my children should go to be and get up in the morning.

When our first son was born I was given a book by Dr Spock.He had many worthwhile chapters on illness but the rest was mostly drival.He was considered the "expert" on child care.

He was all for letting toddlers/children choose their bedtimes. I would assume you would think our sons were abused.They had a regular bedtime as toddlers.Never a fuss or tantrums,they just knew it was bedtime.We played some silly bedtime games,read a story,said their prayers and they turned over and went right to sleep. A friend of mine who was a big Dr Spock fan went thru a nightmare every night.It ususally ended with her holding the door closed with the child screaming No on the other side. To me that is a form of child abuse.

Potty training was another when the little cherub decided it was time. The four year old of a friend of ours still in diapers would run and hide,mess his pants and then come and want to be changed. No thanks,I didn't and don't see any reason for a 2 year old not to be trained.

As for circadian rhythms,when I see the effect on my children that the experts tell me I will,then I will give credence to what they are saying.Until then I will go with what worked with my chidlren and now my grandchildren.

Prior to school age I never had a child sleep beyond 6:00AM.Their choice.They were well rested and ready for the day.

As they got older and wanted to stay up later they were given the choice,but they were well aware with the life we had chosen chore time came at the same time every morning regardless of circadian rhythms

It sounds like you believe that means God was expecting more or better from me as a parent. We are accountable to God for the training we gave our sons.I am not accountable to anyone else that decides I am going against something God has mandated as circadian rhythms. Most of the time they had the required rest to wake up ready for another day.If that is wrong in your eyes ,so be it.

[phkrause]

GP, I have to agree with Bonnie on this. Because you can bet that someday they'll have a new report out saying the exact opposite! Than what? I've always believed that God gave us the Bible as a reference guide, and for getting up early and going to bed early was very good advice. Now having said that I suppose people can debate what's early? Some friends or even relatives think getting up before noon is early!! And yes they've done pretty well, but does that make it right? or wrong? All I'm saying is we do have a guide book why not use it or allow it to full fill our lives and not all these reports or studies that tell us one thing one day and another thing on another day.

[Bravus]

At the risk of being a doofus again... where's that text?

[phkrause]

At the risk of being a doofus again... where's that text?

Bravus I'm not home at the moment, and don't have my Bible with all the references, as soon as I can get to it I will post it. Its either in Proverbs, which is my guess of the top of my head, or Psalms.

[bonnie]

When you think of all the generations that went before us they really must have thought God not to bright.

Bedtime was early as wake up time was early.Pretty simple. Without our conveniences that was the norm.

When it comes to what a scientific study indicates and what hands on life experience with biblical support indicate no contest.

As for forcing nature's call on a child that is done by potty training all the time. Some mothers don't mind a child in diapers by 2 1/2,I did.So what? Little Johnyy says no so obviously the parent must wait?