Should teens be able to sleep later in AM??

[Bravus]

I think you might have missed the point a bit, bonnie. No-one is talking about utterly laissez-faire parenting from birth. It was you who introduced Dr Spock.

The thread is about teenagers, and for us it was about the process of transitioning from parental control to self-control. They started off with us controlling their bedtimes and moved forward over time to the point where they now make their own - highly responsible - decisions about bedtime and pretty much everything else.

[Outta Here]

Hehe. I really wasn't talking about "Little Johnny" when I mentioned being on a mandated schedule for urinating. I really and truly was talking about "Big Bonnie" being on a mandated schedule.

Regardless.

No, I do not suppose even for a second that Bonnie abused her children while they were growing up; nor do I assume that she abuses her grandchildren.

I'm simply trying to say that in listening to our bodies' natural tendencies, we will be better suited to do the very things God asks of us.

Newborns often sleep through the day. Infants require naps--sometimes a couple of times per day. Toddlers usually need a nap. Children tend to get up earlier than many young parents. Teens often need a little extra time sleeping because of growth spurts (both intellectual growth spurts and physical growing). Some adults sleep during the days and are wide awake at night (ask your attending nurse about this the next time you are in the hospital at midnight).

The point is, many teens REQUIRE that sleep pattern to perform at their fullest.

It's very much the same principle as eating an optimal diet. Sure, nutrition is important, and it's good to have regardless of the right balance. But when the right balance is consumed--think of the possibilities!

[Gerr]

When children are allowed to set their own bedtime you can bet they will have problems getting up.

Children that get the physical activity and a reasonable bedtime generally get enough sleep.

Teenagers like to stay up late. Among our neighbors there is a lot of teenagers.

If you don't believe in circadian rhythms, try flip-flopping your night and day.

Maybe teenagers stay up late because their bodies are not yet ready for sleep. Your body temperature, monthly cycles & hormone levels all follow a certain rhythm.

[Liz]

I agree with Aubrey, she said it much better than I could have.

[bonnie]

Maybe teenagers stay up late because their bodies are not yet ready for sleep. Your body temperature, monthly cycles & hormone levels all follow a certain rhythm.

Maybe teenagers are no longer required to expend the beneficial energy during the day do of course are not tired till late.

Computer games and TV,phone and texting may make them appear brain dead but probably is not expending the natural high energy of teenagers.

Regardless,mine were ready for sleep at a reasonable hour. They were not forced or dragged by their hair to bed. They knew from experience that wake up time came early regardless of their wrong decision the night before

[bonnie]

I think you might have missed the point a bit, bonnie. No-one is talking about utterly laissez-faire parenting from birth. It was you who introduced Dr Spock.

[bonnie]

Hehe. I really wasn't talking about "Little Johnny" when I mentioned being on a mandated schedule for urinating. I really and truly was talking about "Big Bonnie" being on a mandated schedule.

[SivartM]

Er, Bonnie, I think Aubrey has kids too, and they're probably not any worse than yours regardless of their sleep schedule.

My parents told me years ago that they weren't going to tell me when to go to bed anymore (gasp). I kept going to bed at around the same time. Now I do not live with them and I still try to stay on a reasonable sleep schedule. I guess you would call my parents 'laissez-faire'. They told me I could eat meat if I wanted to and I didn't. They let me read what I wanted to. Somehow I have managed to survive 18 years.

[bonnie]

Er, Bonnie, I think Aubrey has kids too, and they're probably not any worse than yours regardless of their sleep schedule.

[Bravus]

So basically you're arguing with everyone despite the fact that we all fundamentally agree? Parental control for young children, moving toward self-control for teens. It's exactly what *everyone* who has posted in the thread has advocated.

[bonnie]

So basically you're arguing with everyone despite the fact that we all fundamentally agree? Parental control for young children, moving toward self-control for teens. It's exactly what *everyone* who has posted in the thread has advocated.

[Bravus]

I've explained the followup thing before: yes, it was a response to you, bonnie, because that was the post immediately above mine in the unthreaded version of the discussion.

I don't think I set out to argue with you, but apologies if it seems that way.

The point is, your posts are non-responsive to the idea of the thread. You *assume* that the teens must be fitted to the world, rather than to some small extent better fitting the world to the teens. That's what the thread is about.

I agree with everything you've posted, except that as I say, you've gone off onto the idea of bedtimes and parenting, which is a side argument to the main one about whether it makes sense to start school later since that works better with teens' bodies and rhythms.

[bonnie]

]

Given your first response to me on this....

So what you're saying, bonnie, is that yes, it's possible for parents to force teens out of their natural rhythms. What you haven't really addressed - I guess apart from the notion that there's virtue in the 'discipline' itself - is why it's a good idea to do so. The starting time of school is completely arbitrary: if there are good reasons to change it, it should change.

You are speaking of force and changing school times,not a teen ager becoming more and more mature and accountable.

Now you seem to have changed what this is about for you and...

So basically you're arguing with everyone despite the fact that we all fundamentally agree? Parental control for young children, moving toward self-control for teens. It's exactly what *everyone* who has posted in the thread has advocated.

Either way neither of us is likely to change our minds. I don't believe that my view indicates that God is not to bright I beleieve that teenagers need their rest,you would like to see start times of schools possibly change so their bedtime can be later and possibly closer to what God had intended.

Mine are raised and did seem to survive their forceful upbringing

[Bravus]

Still haven't seen that text...

[Outta Here]

I am done with this thread. But...wanted to say that I'm still being misunderstood. I'm talking about Bonnie's OWN PERSONAL schedule for using the restroom--as an adult. NOT the fact that she was trained to take her boys to the restroom as the parent.

When you have to go, you have to go. Face it. It's a fact of life. There is no training involved. If you don't go when your body tells you you have to go, you explode. It is natural. It is something God gives each of us and it it something we cannot control.

Have to pee, then, I'm going to bed. G'night.

[bonnie]

I am done with this thread. But...wanted to say that I'm still being misunderstood. I'm talking about Bonnie's OWN PERSONAL schedule for using the restroom--as an adult. NOT the fact that she was trained to take her boys to the restroom as the parent.

When you have to go, you have to go. Face it. It's a fact of life. There is no training involved. If you don't go when your body tells you you have to go, you explode. It is natural. It is something God gives each of us and it it something we cannot control.

Have to pee, then, I'm going to bed. G'night.

The training involved is where you do it. Young children without training will use his diaper,without a diaper wherever he happens to be.

[Bravus]

No-one is suggesting 'God is not very bright'. There is a small difference of opinion in which one side - so far with zero Biblical evidence - is claiming that their opinion is God's opinion so that disagreeing with them is disagreeing with God.

[bonnie]

No-one is suggesting 'God is not very bright'. There is a small difference of opinion in which one side - so far with zero Biblical evidence - is claiming that their opinion is God's opinion so that disagreeing with them is disagreeing with God.

[Guest]

Amen Bonnie!!

[bonnie]

Amen Bonnie!!

I am sure that there are teens that are not tired before 10:00 PM or later.It seems a lot of that could be traced right back to the lifestyly of families today.

All I have to do is watch the different neighbors.

The three teen boys are in bed with lights out,sometimes as early as 8:30 PM,they have had a full day and early bedtime is their choice.

Another family has two morbidly obese daughters.They cannot seem to lose weight.Mom says turn off the tv but you know,they just won't.Stop the potato chips etc but they just keep eating.

Their weight is extreme but I am not sure the attitude is. I can see the reflection of the TV's in their rooms after 11:00PM.Mom can't get them to sleep earlier,Wonder why,the girls have done nothing all day and are not tired.

My siblings and I were kept busy and had many chores.I can't remember a time when I went to bed that I wasn't ready to sleep.

Throw out the TV,spend time outdoors,have chores I don't think there would be so many kids that couldn't get to sleep at a earleir hour

[Guest]

Yep

[Bravus]

So basically there's no specific Biblical guidance?

Seems to me like it's a matter for personal beliefs, views and experiences, then.

Might be good (general comment to the whole forum, not any individual) if we could avoid suggesting people are against God or the Bible when they simply disagree with our views, unless we can actually produce the Biblical texts our views are based on...

[bonnie]

So basically there's no specific Biblical guidance?

Seems to me like it's a matter for personal beliefs, views and experiences, then.

[phkrause]

Actually Bonnie I believe Bravus is refering to me about the Biblical reference.

So Bravus it looks like that quote is atributed to Benjimin Franklin, and from what I gather he got that from someone else! For some reason I've always thought that came from the Bible, not sure why. But until I get home I wont be able to find out what EGW says on this subject. Not that that matters to you one way or the other. I always like to see what see has to say on this, but this doesn't always mean that I agree or disagree.

[bonnie]

Actually Bonnie I believe Bravus is refering to me about the Biblical reference.

So Bravus it looks like that quote is atributed to Benjimin Franklin, and from what I gather he got that from someone else! For some reason I've always thought that came from the Bible, not sure why. But until I get home I wont be able to find out what EGW says on this subject. Not that that matters to you one way or the other. I always like to see what see has to say on this, but this doesn't always mean that I agree or disagree.

There are many things biblically I don't understand and just have to accept that it is not crucial that I do.Most of those issues are a lot more important than when I put my children to bed.

On the other hand I don't think any of us are required to grab onto the latest "scientific study" that goes against personal experience.

Besides, somehow I have a little difficulty accepting the fact that God programmed us with a rhythm that could not or was not followed or maybe feasible till modern day conveniences were invented and available.

Hard to be at your best,which I assume God intended when we were created and then throwing up a road block for thousands of years.Only now realizing that parents have been doing it wrong all this time and apparently should go back to God's original bluprint for us.

Personally,I believe children do best with clear cut bounderies. Expanding thei bounderies as they get older.A active child that up early and is not parked in front of the TV or spending endless hours on a cell phone and texting should not have that much trouble falling asleep at a earlier

time.

Those that accept the validity of these type of "studies"

should also be a bit careful about implying that "force is used just for the sake of force"