Absalom, Judas & The Pope

[Dr. Shane]

What do these three all have in common?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

They are all males.

[Dr. Shane]

They are/were all part of the inner-circle and yet worked against the Master. They are all examples of an anti-christ.

[Gordon1]

Pope...inner circle?

[Dr. Shane]

Indeed, the pope is part of the Christian church. He is not a pagan, Jew nor Muslim. He is "one of us". As we have seen with Absalom and Judas, the greatest enemies can come from within.

[SivartM]

I've never met the pope...

[Dr. Shane]

You're probably not missing out on anything.

[SivartM]

I don't know. Have you met him?

[Dr. Shane]

No, I am not Catholic. I have met Jesus, however. Who cares about meeting the anti-christ when they can have a direct line with the genuine One!?

[SivartM]

Are you sure that the pope is much worse than anyone else?

[Dr. Shane]

No worse than Absalom or Judas. I am sure of that.

[SivartM]

That doesn't really answer my question... are you better than the pope?

[Dr. Shane]

This theological discussion isn't about me. This discussion is about how various anti-christs have come from within the circle of believers or professed believers. We need to fear those preaching a false gospel more than we fear those that are not preaching any gospel at all.

[John317]

The pope-- or rather the papal system-- is the "man of sin." The papal system encourages people to forget Christ as our heavenly High Priest and to believe in Satan's counterfeit Sabbath.

It's not a question of whether the pope is personally a "nice man" or not. Some individual popes may be saved in God's kingdom, but the Bible definitely points to the papal system as the little horn power, which is another name for "the man of sin" or "man of lawlessness." That latter designation is a reference to the fact that this power intends to change God's law and to make the whole world drunk on false doctrines which are contrary to the word of God. A person and power can do this-- serving Satan-- while appearing to be "nice." He doesn't even have to be aware that he's serving Satan's purposes.

Eve looked beautiful and didn't know she was a servant of Satan when she tempted Adam to sin. Adam should have been afraid of her but her beauty captured him and made him a slave of Satan also.

[SivartM]

I understand, I'm just not sure why I should be afraid of the pope. Can't we just respectfully disagree with him?

[John317]

I understand, I'm just not sure why I should be afraid of the pope. Can't we just respectfully disagree with him?

God gave the prophecies so people will know to be "afraid" of the false doctrines taught by the pope and avoid them like the plague.

Yes, we should respectfully disagree, but how is saying the truth on an Adventist forum-- that he is antichirst, the little-horn power, or the man of sin-- not being respectful?

[SivartM]

I always thought that the papal system was the "anti-christ", not a specific person whom none of us have ever met. I'm not afraid of Joseph Alois Ratzinger. I don't think he's any worse than some people who have "right" doctrines.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Originally Posted By: SivartM

I understand, I'm just not sure why I should be afraid of the pope. Can't we just respectfully disagree with him?

God gave the prophecies so people will know to be "afraid" of the false doctrines taught by the pope and avoid them like the plague.

Yes, we should respectfully disagree, but how is saying the truth on an Adventist forum-- that he is antichirst, the little-horn power, or the man of sin-- not being respectful?

It's not logical to say that some Popes may well be in heaven, yet, in the same breath, accuse the person of being the anti-christ.

I kind of liked Pope John Paul II.. I think he genuinely cared about people (from what I saw and heard of him).

[Dr. Shane]

It is not up to us to pass judgment on another human being. That is God's job and when we are in heaven the books will be opened so that we can judge God. That is why many Adventists will not judge individual popes and will leave room for the possibility that some may be saved. That itself is a bit off topic.

I got this topic from a sermon I was watching on 3ABN. The preacher drew the connection between Absalom, Judas and the papacy. It is a very intriguing thought. Remember, Judas' concern regarding the poor. The preacher pointed out how the other disciples still hadn't figured out that Judas was a bad apple at the Last Supper. When Jesus stated that one of them would betray Him, they asked "Who?" and Judas asked, "Is it I, Lord?" The position of Judas among the followers of Christ at that time was very much like the position of the pope in Christianity today. The pope is one of the elite within Christianity just like Judas was one of the 12.

[jasd]

Quote:

They are all examples of an anti-christ.

In that there is nothing, repeat, absolutely nothing Biblical that might sustain such dogma – it is flabbergastingly

outre and outrageous – reflecting poorly upon those who develop and disseminate such falsities.

1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist,

2 John 7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

The Pope cannot, by any measure, be defined as an/the “antichrist” – according to the very words of St John – who, we are told wrote, as inspired by the Holy Ghost Gd. Moreover, I’d propose that the Pope,

moreso than any of us, declares “Jesus is the Christ”, that He “came in the flesh” - and also proclaims both the “Father and the Son”.

Whatever other faults we purport the Pope to have as a Xtian – he must also be defined by Holy-Writ-according-to-St John as having the descriptives of “antichrist”.

I do not excuse the excesses of the Roman Church, but this sort of 'through a looking glass' dogma beggars a .Org’s claims to ‘truths’.

Quote:

We need to fear those preaching a false gospel

Indeed!—fear such proselytizing – as cannot be upheld through Holy Writ!

[Dr. Shane]

Martin Luther taught the papacy was the anti-christ. It is very Biblical. This is a message that rang throughout the Reformation. The reason Protestants are called Protestants is because we are protesting Rome. Not everyone has to agree with us but it is a message based on the doctrine of Sola Scriptura.

[teresaq]

I always thought that the papal system was the "anti-christ", not a specific person whom none of us have ever met.

[John317]

It's not logical to say that some Popes may well be in heaven, yet, in the same breath, accuse the person of being the anti-christ.

As Shane said, we can't judge an individual's heart and mind. We have to leave that with God. The point is that there are good people in the false religious systems. God has many honest, sincere people in the Catholic Church, which is fallen and part of Babylon. Yet those who are worshipping God to the best of their knowledge will be saved if they continue to be faithful to Christ. This same principle applies to anyone, including individual popes. That's why it's important when we talk about these things that we distinguish between individuals and the system.

What we do know for sure is that the papal system is antiChrist and the little-horn power of Daniel 8. God will judge individual popes the same as He does others, but the papal system itself has been judged already, as evidenced in the books of Daniel and Revelation.

[jasd]

>>The pope-- or rather the papal system-- is the "man of sin."<<

I’ve always thought the passage somewhat numinous. Please parse it for us – in a manner showing the unequivocal nature of the purport.

>>The papal system encourages people to forget Christ as our heavenly High Priest...<<

They, moreso, emphasize Jesus Christ’s redemptive qualities – the aspects of a “heavenly High Priest” teaching – suffering from attenuation – at this time.

>>...and to believe in Satan's counterfeit Sabbath.<<

Explicitly, there is nothing “counterfeit” about Sunday Sabbath-keeping, as so many here are wont to note:

“the RCs unhesitatingly demur to the ‘correctness’ of the Seventh-day Sabbath.”

>>...but the Bible definitely points to the papal system as the little horn power, which is another name for "the man of sin" or "man of lawlessness."<<

That is nineteenth century postulation – planted by people who strove mightily to represent themselves as “peculiar”. The apologist may be excused for advancing the dialogic point – that they were sincere re their parsing of Holy Writ; however, it is simply that – a dialogic point.

Thereafter, those first developments – ‘scriptural doctrines’ have bequeathed themselves – as continuing rote.

>>That latter designation is a reference to the fact that this power intends to change God's law<<

Is Writ explicit in that the “law” intended changed is, in fact, spiritual and not temporal “law”? Our busy scientists are even today changing physical law; whereas, the argument is forwarded – that the ‘Papacy” – rather than intending – did actually, in fact, change times and laws. Anyway,

this argument of “times and laws” was shut up and sealed in the book of Daniel – beyond the times of the Reformation or the Remnant – until the actual time of the end...

Re the above referenced quote: it is obviously – a dogma

fitted and groomed before its time.

>>...and to make the whole world drunk on false doctrines which are contrary to the word of God.<<

That would be a latter-day Babylon, which causes ‘drunkenness’, yes? (one notes that: a “latter-day Babylon” would track the earlier Babylon. Babylon’s religion came by way of Persia and in the last stages of the Empire Babylon – it reverted to the practice of Persian moon worship. That said, Babylon’s signature contribution to mankind lay in its banking system. It originated in Babylon, by Babylon)

>>A person and power can do this-- serving Satan-- while appearing to be "nice." He doesn't even have to be aware that he's serving Satan's purposes.<<

“Serving Satan’s purposes”?—unaware?—indeed, we see that happening in the nicest .orgs.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

right.

But doesn't Revelation say that "666" is the number of a MAN??