Absalom, Judas & The Pope

[Kevin H]

Exactly (and I have to admit this is not unique to me, learned it in Adventist educational institutions)

Since we have David as one of our heroes, and Absalom rebelled against David, we jump to the conclusion that Absalom was a villain. Absalom was wrong, but only wrong in the method he chose in wanting to correct things that he perceived as his dad apostatizing.

Absalom is a lesson for me and for others here where we have different perspectives; want to be faithful to God and to the Bible, to question our methods. I have been from time to time just as guilty as Absalom, only I've never had and army of followers and I've survived, I never had a liberal Adventist who felt that they could break all ten commandaments to spread the Gospel, shoot me when I was doing one of my stupid things.

We may have our conserns about the Papacy. Judas was wanting to profit from his position. Absalom was again trying to return the kingdom to the prophetic blueprint; he was trying to do what he believed to be right. He was just bullheaded and did something stupid in his attempt to bring about revival. And while some of the church leaders were following David, other church leaders and the religious Bible studying lay members sided with Absalom and assumed he was correct. This was a lesson on church disputes. It is an inspired record of dissagreements among God's followers so that we can exam our methods of trying to spread the truth. And letting us know that things are not always hunky dore in the family, even the family of God as we are deaing with life in a world of sin. But how dispite our mistakes and shorfalls, we have a God who lives us and even if we do not survive we have a God who does not give up on us. We are squabbling kids, but have a sad but loving Father.

[Dr. Shane]

i think that the main point of God in presenting babylon and identifying it, is to point out two different mindsets

why is the state-of-the-dead, for example, so important? because of how it portrays God most importantly. what is the "wine" of babylon? isnt it mostly about manipulation, force, control, me first, you last?

This is an area where Adventism shines. Adventism is all about free will.

[Dr. Shane]

So far in this discussion, I see a lot of papal traits in Absalom and Judas. Good discussion. It pays to watch Adventist television.

[Kevin H]

So far in this discussion, I see a lot of papal traits in Absalom and Judas. Good discussion. It pays to watch Adventist television.

And avoid Adventist College Bible classes

[Kevin H]

So far in this discussion, I see a lot of papal traits in Absalom and Judas. Good discussion.

We all have papal and Judas trates inside of us, as well as that in us that wants to follow Jesus. The individual Popes will be in their correct place at the end of time. Butthere is a big difference between the selfishness of Judas and the wanting to do the right thing but choose a way that was all so wrong as with Absalom and so often you and me.

[Dr. Shane]

there is a big difference between the selfishness of Judas and the wanting to do the right thing but choose a way that was all so wrong as with Absalom and so often you and me.

I don't buy that revisionism although everyone has a right to their opinion. Thanks for sharing.

[Dr. Shane]

Absalom did believe he was better to lead Israel than David was. The pope also thinks he is better to lead spiritual Israel than any other is. Absalom probably even believed that God wanted him to lead Israel. The pope probably believes the God wants him to lead spiritual Israel. A lot of parallels between the two.

[teresaq]

while i thank you and appreciate the thumbsup....God says that we are blind and deceived...i believe He would know...so perhaps we preach/teach one thing and practice another?

Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

Rev 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

Rev 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.....

Rev 3:22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

twould appear we do not, in fact, have what we believe we have...

...

This is an area where Adventism shines. Adventism is all about free will.

[teresaq]

amen to that!

We all have papal and Judas trates inside of us, as well as that in us that wants to follow Jesus.

[Dr. Shane]

I think to the degree some Adventists try to force their beliefs on others is the degree that those members are influenced by other denominations. Some simply do not know what the church believes and teaches in regard to religious liberty. However the more members that watch Adventist TV the more they learn what we stand for.

As a church, we have principles and beliefs that members agree to follow when they join the church. If they later decide not to follow those beliefs and principles, they may freely leave the church. If they decide to stay in the church and not follow its beliefs and principles, they are subject to church discipline. However church discipline is not an example of the church forcing its doctrine on someone. The person is free to leave the church and believe as they choose.

[teresaq]

i didnt catch where God pointed the finger in some other direction in those verses... lol i also missed where He told us to watch adventist tv...but i have seen where He tells us to go to Him and see where we are deficient...

I think to the degree some Adventists try to force their beliefs on others is the degree that those members are influenced by other denominations. ....

[jasd]

>>But we can't really know those things are dangerous unless we understand CORRECTLY who and what constitutes Babylon,<< [ed.jasd]

“By George!—I think he’s got it!” CORRECTLY, being the operative term!!!

Maybe we ought to shove that regurgative, sometime stepchild Rote – out the back end of our Exposition – and head over to

the Verities?—wi’out taking a left up Via Wrongo!

>>Over a billion people believe they are following Christ while they are actually following a different leader...<<

Uh-oh, by Sadful Yiminy!—he’s in his opaque mode again – how can Holy Writ have defined the leadership of 1/6th of he world’s inhabitants as – a small horn?—a horn... Oh contraire! That horn would, of necessity, have been the largest HORN in all of Biblical prophecy! – and forcefully brought to our attention.

Is wha’happens when we default our cognitives

to thems – thems noetic Protestors... :-o

>>...are dedicated to doctrines of devils.<<

And when our dogmas fail – we appeal to the questionable logicum logicae of Sir Balderdash. [/sigh]

>>God raised up our church to do.<<

Aw, gee, the Good Lord took 18-hundred years to raise up a “to do” church. Of course, that would have been whilst His hand was too short to save, yes? [/again, sigh]

>>Many of those people are taught that God wants them to crawl on their hands and knees on some pilgramage in order to answer their prayers.<<

Did I mention opaque?—seeing but not seeing? Many of another .Org have been taught that their salvation lies, in part, with the abstinence from foods, which generate animalistic heat in their blood – leading them, subsequently, to give in to l-u-s-t (read lost). [/again, with the sigh]

>>Or light candles to the saints. Or pay priests for prayers for their dead loved ones.<<

Mo’ better they shoulda just thrown a light switch somewhere, yes?—that said, and on the other note: I agree – that, as presented, paying for prayers for the departed – is dumb. Why pay for something one might do him or herself? But let’s reconsider. When my mother cast off her earthly tabernacle that she may be with her Lord – her .Org. immediately – though never having called me before, contacted me desiring to perform a memorial service (read Mass) for her. That, same as a Memorial Mass in a RC church, would have necessitated my ‘paying the preacherman for prayers for my dear mom’. It all goes to biases and/or Bible –

for one who serves at the altar shares of that altar.

Also, let’s not forget that the first three centuries of this era – Xtians wrote prayers upon the walls of catacombs – for the dead. Umm, might that not bespeak an early Xtian belief in a ‘purgatory’ of sorts?

That said,

why not follow after Jews who perform the Kiddish for almost an entire year after their loved ones have died – to purify them? I mean, so much is made of following after Jews and their Sabbathness – why not pray for the dead, as do they? That having been said,

the last time I went to church – there were five(?) collections for monies (between Sabbath school, church, and a collection at the exit). I suppose, after all is said – were I to give for this or that purpose – I’d as soon pay for prayers for someone I loved.

As a margin note per the above referenced quote, I’m good with it; however, was I not recently advised that this sort of thing is aka ‘hijacking’? – and that I ought hie my fundament – elsewhere?

>>the philosophy of deconstructionism:<<

Oh oh oh Oy!—lots of syllables. Hmmm, maybe that’s why St John is so misinterpreted.

So, tell me: who is it – St John or Beethhoven rolling over in his grave?

[Kevin H]

I support Adventist TV; but it is designed for evangelism and how to reach those who don't yet know about the Bible. Most of it I really respect. But there are some who go more to tradition than the actual Bible, yet they get people to send the financial support.

Also I agree that we cannot force our beliefs on others. We can't wear somebody else's armor.

What I'm pointing out is that when you look at the Bible you can contrast it with the history of the Papacy and see how they match up. You can see how Judas went into rebellion based on selfish reasons. But what we see in Absalom is things that don't do this. Absalom is worried that his dad had apostatized, wanted to return the Kingship to the Samuel model, return the Kingship from the more pagan type of kingship his father ended up building to one that sounded more like the description from Deuteronomy. And his followers were the good traditional Hebrews, while David's supporters in this war were people like the Philistines and these other nations David conquered and converted; New converts. Very few of those who were grounded in the truth supported David in this war, most from that category sided with Absalom. I pointed this out. You can read the text and get out the Bible Atlas etc. and study this out for yourself.

[jasd]

“Their doctrines seem to me pernicious, and their pride revolts me...” --Alexis de Tocqueville

Oh Boy! That's big Al de Tocq..., the subject may differ, but I bet the principle plumbs true!

[Dr. Shane]

One would do good to read Chapter 72 in Patriarchs and Prophets before discussing too much about the character of Absalom. There are a lot of parallels to that of Judas and the papacy.

[Kevin H]

One would do good to read Chapter 72 in Patriarchs and Prophets before discussing too much about the character of Absalom. There are a lot of parallels to that of Judas and the papacy.

There is nothing wrong with that and I am sure there are many more parallel and lessons that can be drawn. But 1.)be careful not to read more into her words than she meant to be read into them and 2.) remember she does not want her writings to be used for exegesis

[teresaq]

One would do good to read Chapter 72 in Patriarchs and Prophets before discussing too much about the character of Absalom. There are a lot of parallels to that of Judas and the papacy.

did you agree or disagree with the paragraph i put here from that chapter?

[jasd]

>>...what is the "wine" of babylon? isnt it mostly about manipulation,<<

Remember some years back – though not that many..., the Vatican sent a legate to Indonesia attempting to influence a change in Govt. SQUAT!—that’s what the Pope’s legate got from the Pres of Indonesia.

Short time later – almost right on top of the Pope’s legate – the IMF sent a coupla guys to Indonesia AND! et voilà!—the Indonesians got a new Govt in approximately a month’s time.

Study Writ – and you’ll find that the wine of Babylon is not in the cellars of Vatican City, but on computer tapes, discs, and binary codes.

You, me, our families – will shortly go “even to Babylon”. That does not mean that we will become RCs. That means that we will be economically enslaved.

Hello, the mark!—which is charagma in the original writing of St John. It was a term used to identify sharpened stakes – like your pencil next to the phone. It carries the inflected meaning of ‘etching, to etch’. That is how chips are manufactured; that is, by etching – photographic etching.

Hey—y’all! Guys, guys, ...don’t want no chip – just gimme the spendables!

It may be that there is another road less traveled that leads to a proper understanding of a figurative Babylon; that same Babylon, which leads to economic slavery. The sort of slavery where a man is rated lowest on a list of descending values – and will be forced to work all day for a wage – the equivalent of a loaf of bread. Pray that when that comes to pass, we will have no children to feed.

But surely, surely, that wouldna, couldna happen!—we’re progressives here! It’s the RCS, thems eviler RCs and their eviler of evilest antichrist!

Give me a freakin’ break.

Then again, it may be that you, me, all of us are already in Babylon in that we are all engaged

in the practice of usury – a practice eliciting the harshest terms from both the Father and the Son. It may be that the call to come out of Babylon – is a call for us to separate ourselves from

the evil, which the practice of lending and borrowing upon usury has caused and sometime, perhaps soon, will be a disease, a plague affecting all peoples.

[teresaq]

are you an ex-sda, or never been sda? just curious. you dont have to answer if you dont wish...far too often too many of us have looked with contempt on the catholic people, and others...i remember hearing statements about catholics as a child....

my youngest was manipulated from me at a yr-old. when we re-united after she turned 18- thoroughly terrified of me-what came out of her mouth about catholics absolutely shocked and horrified me. i had forgotten how hateful some in the sda church could be.

[John317]

..i remember hearing statements about catholics as a child....

my youngest was manipulated from me at a yr-old. when we re-united after she turned 18- thoroughly terrified of me-what came out of her mouth about catholics absolutely shocked and horrified me. i had forgotten how hateful some in the sda church could be.

Are you talking about what people say about Catholics or about Catholic teachings and certain practices of the church? Those are two totally separate issues. It isn't a personal matter but one of doctrine and practice. Any time the subject comes up, we have to make sure it's clear that we're talking about Bible teachings, not about individuals. God has millions of good, honest, sincere people in the Catholic Church as well as among the other protestant churches, and many of them will eventually come into the SDA church to take the place of SDAs who will leave and ultimately be lost.

I've been connected to the SDA church in one way or another all my life and I've really never heard SDAs putting down individuals in the Catholic Church. In fact, my wife was Catholic for the first 5 years of our marriage. All of her family are Catholic and we're a very close-knit family. Their being Catholic has absolutely nothing to do with how we feel about them.

I've seen hate come out of some SDAs just as I've seen it come out of people of all faiths or no faiths. It happens to anyone who is not controlled by the Holy Spirit. That really has nothing to do with denomination but with an individual's personal relationship with Christ.

[SivartM]

.

Any time the subject comes up, we have to make sure it's clear that we're talking about Bible teachings, not about individuals.

Except the pope?

[Dr. Shane]

I think the problems with the papacy (pope) are tied to what he believes and teaches. That is what make it the anti-christ.

[Dr. Shane]

did you agree or disagree with the paragraph i put here from that chapter?

Absolutely. There are a lot more parallels in the chapter too.

[teresaq]

please share the parallels you see mentioned in that paragraph with judas and the papacy...

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

did you agree or disagree with the paragraph i put here from that chapter?

Absolutely. There are a lot more parallels in the chapter too.

[teresaq]

so, jasd, perhaps you havent had time to respond, or perhaps my response to you didnt apply...but if it did, i would like to sincerely apologize for our insensitivity.

i have seen what some of us have done on general christian boards and i do understand the bad feelings it has generated, which, quite understandably, can make any mention of the papal/babylon/antichrist subject very touchy.

i firmly believe our understanding of these issues, but i also believe they should be presented with much more sensitivity-and a humble recognition that we ourselves, individually, are far from perfect ....