Me at the mosque

[teresaq]

perhaps you werent able to see the, "and "ask questions"..." part.

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

did you know, richard, that ellen white encouraged us to attend other churches and "ask questions"...

ahhh, what do you know, i found it quickly, thank You, Lord.

"Let some of the workers attend religious gatherings in other churches and, as there is opportunity, take part in them.... Judicious young men should be encouraged to attend the meetings of the Young Men’s Christian Association, not for the sake of contention, but to search the Scriptures with them and suggest helpful questions. {6T 74.4}

She mentions "some of the workers" and "judicious young men." That is hardly "encouraging us" to attend other churches....

[bonnie]

Quote:

john, cant you see the difference here? you are speaking of what goes on in the church versus the individual people. may i point out that that would be assuming that all catholics attend church, and/or, are devout. the catholic people are made up of individuals, just as woody made an attempt to point out.

Individual people outside the church during services still pray to saints.My MIL never owned a bible or read one,she did have a very well worn prayer book.Prayers that were to be read for different situations.Not one prayer addressing GodNone of the prayers began by addressing God or Christ.

My MIL made a donation for St Jude in helping her with her pain.

When our second son was born he was 2 months premature and not expected to live.I have always credited a very devout catholic nurse for his survival. Before and after work hours she would rock him and rub his back with a "very special rosary"

Prayers for him were to the "blessed mother" never to God."The blessed mother knew what it was like to lose a son and would surely watch over mine"

My husbamd would tell you that yes Catholics pray to saints long dead.He did it many times outside of church and at home with his parents

I believe God heard her sincerity but it was not prayers to God

Quote:

what you are basically presenting are general catholic beliefs that may or may not be subscribed to by all. the more one associates with any particular group outside of ones own, the more we see that people are basically individuals, very much like ourselves.

A catholic in good standing,no matter how liberal believes in saints.As my husband says,it is impossiblle for a good catholic

to not believe in saints. When the pope confirms a saint members don't question that.He said so therefore that is true

[teresaq]

since you and john would rather "put words in my mouth that (i) did not say"...

Here are the two passages compared - the first:

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

did you know, richard, that ellen white encouraged us to attend other churches and "ask questions"...

ahhh, what do you know, i found it quickly, thank You, Lord.

"Let some of the workers attend religious gatherings in other churches and, as there is opportunity, take part in them.... Judicious young men should be encouraged to attend the meetings of the Young Men's Christian Association, not for the sake of contention, but to search the Scriptures with them and suggest helpful questions." 6T 74-5

[John317]

And... from a selection in Early Writings entitled "False Shepherds":

"I was shown the necessity of those who believe that we are having the last message of mercy, being separate from those who are daily imbibing new errors. I saw that neither young nor old should attend their meetings; for it is wrong to thus encourage them while they teach error that is a deadly poison to the soul and teach for doctrines the commandments of men. The influence of such gatherings is not good. If God has delivered us from such darkness and error, we should stand fast in the liberty wherewith He has set us free and rejoice in the truth.

God is displeased with us when we go to listen to error, without being obliged to go; for unless He sends us to those meetings where error is forced home to the people by the power of the will, He will not keep us. The angels cease their watchful care over us, and we are left to the buffetings of the enemy, to be darkened and weakened by him and the power of his evil angels; and the light around us becomes contaminated with the darkness.

I saw that we have no time to throw away in listening to fables. Our minds should not be thus diverted, but should be occupied with the present truth, and seeking wisdom that we may obtain a more thorough knowledge of our position, that with meekness we may be able to give a reason of our hope from the Scriptures. While false doctrines and dangerous errors are pressed upon the mind, it cannot be dwelling upon the truth which is to fit and prepare the house of Israel to stand in the day of the Lord."

Early Writings 124-5.

Thank you, Gordon1. Those are very clear statements. I know that Ellen White didn't contradict herself on those things.

She never wrote anything indicating that she was "encourging us to attend other churches." That would go squarely against what she wrote in many other places, including EW.

[teresaq]

perhaps you werent able to see the, "and "ask questions"..." part.

...ellen white encouraged us to attend other churches and "ask questions"...

[Woody]

I am amazed how people pick and choose which Ellen White quotes they will live by.

[John317]

A catholic in good standing,no matter how liberal believes in saints.As my husband says,it is impossiblle for a good catholic

to not believe in saints. When the pope confirms a saint members don't question that.He said so therefore that is true

That's very true. For a CAtholic not to believe in the saints would be like an SDA not believing in the Sabbath or the second coming. As we've seen recently on the Forum, such things do happen, but they are extremely rare (thank God) and such views aren't recongized by the other members.

[teresaq]

A catholic in good standing,no matter how liberal believes in saints.As my husband says,it is impossiblle for a good catholic to not believe in saints. When the pope confirms a saint members don't question that.

He said so therefore that is true

well, since he said so...

[John317]

All Catholics pray to the saints. That's what the rosery is all about. It's an important part of the Catholic religion. You can't help but realize this when you walk into any Catholic Church and see the candles and the pictures of the saints.

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

john, cant you see the difference here? you are speaking of what goes on in the church versus the individual people.

For Catholics, what goes on in the Church building is even more important than what goes on in SDA churches. The whole Catholic Church is founded on-- and expressed by--- what happens within the church building: the Mass, Confession, the prayers, etc.

This is not to say there aren't individuals in the Catholic Church who have all kinds of beliefs. The truth is that there is a great variety of views held by individual members in the Church. That's because once a person is a Catholic, the Church has very few requirements that everyone must abide by to remain CAtholic.

Having said that, it is also true that among SDAs are people who reject Ellen White, 1844, the Investigative Judgment, special Creation and the Sabbath and even some who don't necessarily believe Christ is coming soon if at all.

But does this variety mean that it's inaccurate to say that SDAs believe in the Sabbath and the ministry of Ellen White?

Originally Posted By: teresaq (sda)

may i point out that that would be assuming that all catholics attend church, and/or, are devout. the catholic people are made up of individuals, just as woody made an attempt to point out.

The fact that there are individuals in the Catholic Church or in the SDA church doesn't deny the standard beliefs and practices of the Church. I wrote in my original post about the variety of Catholic lay people in the Catholic Church. There is also, of course, a variety of thinking or theology among the religious in the Catholic Church, but that variety doesn't mean there aren't certain fundamental beliefs that the vast majority of people share.

Individuals in the church don't speak for the church any more than the people on the forum speak for the SDA church when they reject the Sabbath or the Spirit of prophecy or Special Creation, etc. That's not to say we don't realize those individuals exist.

Originally Posted By: teresaq (sda)

my "catholic" friends come in quite a variety.

Of course, as do probably your SDA friends. But again, the variety doesn't mean the Catholic Church teaches or practices everything that those Catholic friends teach or believe. An indivdual SDA might tell you that he doesn't believe in the Investigative Judgment-- or he might give you the wrong interpretation-- but that means nothing when you're talking about the beliefs of the Church.

Originally Posted By: teresaq (sda)

what you are basically presenting are general catholic beliefs that may or may not be subscribed to by all. the more one associates with any particular group outside of ones own, the more we see that people are basically individuals, very much like ourselves.

No one is claiming that every single Catholic is exactly the same or that they all subscribe to everything the Church says. But I already addressed this issue.

The only SDAs I associate with at this time in my life are my wife and kids and the members of this club. Otherwise I am around non-SDAs, mostly Catholic. Most of my closest friends have been non-SDA and many also non-Christians. I love all other Christians and SDAs but I'm the kind of person who likes a lot of variety in all kinds of ways. I actually enjoy most being around people who don't think like I do at all. I find it stimulating intellectually and spiritually.

It's true that there are all kinds of Catholics, from people who are devoted to their religion and to God, to people who are basically agnostic and even atheistic.

That is also true of the SDA church, only not to the same degree.

Therefore, you are in error to say I am assuming that all Catholics attend church. Nothing could be further from the truth. I mentioned in my post that most of my wife's family don't go to church.

However, when it comes to describing what Catholics believe and teach, it is helpful to be aware of the official teachings of the church, and not merely go by what people in the pew ( or worse, in the street) will tell you. The Catholic Church is based on the "religious" and not on the laity. The laity have virtually no say on what occurs in the Church. All of the doctrines and practices are determined by the religious-- i.e., Church officials, who are unelected by the laity.

[Tom Wetmore]

What was the topic again?

[Woody]

topic is in the eye of the beholder Tom ... as you can well see by this thread. So jump right in and discuss what your eye beholds. :)

[teresaq]

john, since your comments have nothing to do with the points i was making, or what i did say, there is nothing to respond to.

for the rest,

my only point was, i see the mexican people, and catholics in general, as individuals, not as a set of beliefs. i have enjoyed getting to know a variety of "groups" on a personal level, learning from them in various ways. (cant wait to see how that gets twisted rotfl)

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: John317

All Catholics pray to the saints. That's what the rosery is all about. It's an important part of the Catholic religion. You can't help but realize this when you walk into any Catholic Church and see the candles and the pictures of the saints.

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

john, cant you see the difference here? you are speaking of what goes on in the church versus the individual people.

For Catholics, what goes on in the Church building is even more important than what goes on in SDA churches. The whole Catholic Church is founded on-- and expressed by--- what happens within the church building: the Mass, Confession, the prayers, etc.

This is not to say there aren't individuals in the Catholic Church who have all kinds of beliefs. The truth is that there is a great variety of views held by individual members in the Church. That's because once a person is a Catholic, the Church has very few requirements that everyone must abide by to remain CAtholic.

Having said that, it is also true that among SDAs are people who reject Ellen White, 1844, the Investigative Judgment, special Creation and the Sabbath and even some who don't necessarily believe Christ is coming soon if at all.

But does this variety mean that it's inaccurate to say that SDAs believe in the Sabbath and the ministry of Ellen White?

Originally Posted By: teresaq (sda)

may i point out that that would be assuming that all catholics attend church, and/or, are devout. the catholic people are made up of individuals, just as woody made an attempt to point out.

The fact that there are individuals in the Catholic Church or in the SDA church doesn't deny the standard beliefs and practices of the Church. I wrote in my original post about the variety of Catholic lay people in the Catholic Church. There is also, of course, a variety of thinking or theology among the religious in the Catholic Church, but that variety doesn't mean there aren't certain fundamental beliefs that the vast majority of people share.

Individuals in the church don't speak for the church any more than the people on the forum speak for the SDA church when they reject the Sabbath or the Spirit of prophecy or Special Creation, etc. That's not to say we don't realize those individuals exist.

Originally Posted By: teresaq (sda)

my "catholic" friends come in quite a variety.

Of course, as do probably your SDA friends. But again, the variety doesn't mean the Catholic Church teaches or practices everything that those Catholic friends teach or believe. An indivdual SDA might tell you that he doesn't believe in the Investigative Judgment-- or he might give you the wrong interpretation-- but that means nothing when you're talking about the beliefs of the Church.

Originally Posted By: teresaq (sda)

what you are basically presenting are general catholic beliefs that may or may not be subscribed to by all. the more one associates with any particular group outside of ones own, the more we see that people are basically individuals, very much like ourselves.

No one is claiming that every single Catholic is exactly the same or that they all subscribe to everything the Church says. But I already addressed this issue.

The only SDAs I associate with at this time in my life are my wife and kids and the members of this club. Otherwise I am around non-SDAs, mostly Catholic. Most of my closest friends have been non-SDA and many also non-Christians. I love all other Christians and SDAs but I'm the kind of person who likes a lot of variety in all kinds of ways. I actually enjoy most being around people who don't think like I do at all. I find it stimulating intellectually and spiritually.

It's true that there are all kinds of Catholics, from people who are devoted to their religion and to God, to people who are basically agnostic and even atheistic.

That is also true of the SDA church, only not to the same degree.

Therefore, you are in error to say I am assuming that all Catholics attend church. Nothing could be further from the truth. I mentioned in my post that most of my wife's family don't go to church.

However, when it comes to describing what Catholics believe and teach, it is helpful to be aware of the official teachings of the church, and not merely go by what people in the pew ( or worse, in the street) will tell you. The Catholic Church is based on the "religious" and not on the laity. The laity have virtually no say on what occurs in the Church. All of the doctrines and practices are determined by the religious-- i.e., Church officials, who are unelected by the laity.

Your point was clear enough John317, I understood exactly what you were saying.

[Woody]

Woody, I have a solution in our search for purity of thought and idea that all should abide by or be.....and I use a quote

Quote:

I saw that we have no time to throw away in listening to fables. Our minds should not be thus diverted,...

We should all just shut up and close the forums!!! No more talk or listening to all the fables! Shhhhh...quite now!

Yes CoA. Exactly. There sure are a lot of man made fables goin' on. Praise God there are a group here that stick with and defend the Word of God. Otherwise ... we could just shut down the Forums.

[jasd]

>>They light candles to the saints, or the "icons,"<<

Among other things, Catholics believe candles symbolize the ‘light of their faith’.

>>...pay the priests money to pray for their dead loved ones.<<

I’ve already mentioned that my mother’s church offered to hold what would have been a Memorial Mass by any other name – for which there would have been incurred costs. So what?—does not Writ confirm that he who serves at the altar partakes of it?

>>My wife's sister crawled on her hands and knees from the back of the cathedral to the front so that God would answer her prayers for a son who was about to have surgery.<<

It is certain that her supplication came to the attention of Gd – as might her other acts of faith, yes? Some Xtians practice flagellation, others have themselves crucified, and yet others expect and embrace martyrdom... whilst others simply ‘pick up their cross’ and follow Jesus Christ.

>>Do they worship these saints? Yes, they do.<<

My, my, that is an unequivocal statement. That they do “worship these saints” may be so among some of the believers; however, their Church teaches that they are to venerate the saints – for worship truly belongs only to Gd.

>>It's been over 25 years since my wife's mom and dad died, yet her sisters still pay the priests to have mass for them.<<

“Honor thy father and they mother...” Ahh, again with a Memorial Mass. That is commendable. Are your wife’s sisters billed for the service – or do they make an offering dictated by the heart and the purse?

>>Mixed in with all these prayers is also the practice of visiting what we call witches. In Mexico they are called "brujas." This is a very common practice, and the Catholic priests don't speak out against it or discourage it. It's part of the culture and religion of Mexico...<<

Is the distinction being made between “brujas” and ‘curanderas’ (natural healers)?

>>...they will often go to the "burjas," who "cleanse" the girl's body with egg,<<

What is it?—does the bruja scramble an egg and rub it on the girl? Egads! In fact, the curandera dips her right hand in clean water and flicks it upon and about the girl whilst moving a whole egg through her auriic field. This is an attempt to ‘adjust’ the natural energies of the body.

The ‘orb/sphere/egg’ (those associated with Fu dogs, Dragons, etc) of ancient beliefs is now thought generally to represent calcium (or more specifically, the calcium crystal), which some Gerontologists have proposed is linked to the subject of longevity or the science of aging.

>>Of course this is not free.<<

Goes to ‘a worker is worthy of his hire’, I suppose...

>>There's a place in Los Angeles where you can go and watch people line up on Sunday to pray to her image.<<

That would be the La Virgen de Guadalupe (Indijena), yes? That is believable and probably true, as our Hispanic friends are a rather catholic lot – by and large. Having said that, it is more common – that on Sundays one will mostly see lines throughout the barrios – of people bringing their own pots to purchase menudo from their favorite sites – menudo being a Sunday tradition.

>>Catholics will pray to shadows if they look like a picture of one of the saints.<<

Some do – on burnt toast, spilled ketchup, etc – whilst other .orgs will construct a cachet (dogma, unusual prophecy, prophet, etc) to attach greater distinction to themselves as opposed to other .orgs – humbleness having been cast aside. All .orgs seem to have their own unique ‘kink’ woven within their ‘belief system’...

[jasd]

>>It's quite simple, really. The Mass is called an unbloody sacrifice to clarify the fact that we do not behold the Lord's bloody body as it was seen on Calvary. Instead we behold His body and blood under the appearance of bread and wine. But it is the same sacrifice we behold AND the same body and blood.

I suspect this distinction became necessary as the result of the denial of the Mass being a sacrifice by various Protestant groups.<<

It may well have been a response to demagoguery shrilled by Protestors of different stripes; then again, it may be that, in fact, the Eucharist is – truly not bloody by sight – rather, unbloody, such as a sheaf of grain might be considered -- unbloody.

[jasd]

>>The Catholic religion is founded on the belief that the dead saints are alive in heaven...<< and can hear and answer the prayers of the living.<<

Indeed, per the very words of the Jesus Christ Redeemer and those of St Paul.

>>...and can hear and answer the prayers of the living.<<

It is not so much that Saints in heaven “hear and answer” – as that they act as intercessors – such as those present Saints who we ask to intercede to Gd for us; that is, pray for us. The way some would have it,

the Body of Jesus Christ (His followers) end at the Great Divide of the shedding of this earthly coil of flesh.

>>All Catholic pray to the saints.<<

Yes, it serves the questionable purpose of the insulated to say that Catholics pray to – neglecting to finish the statement that they pray for the intercession of Saints.

Rev 5:8 ... four [and] twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

>>That's what the rosery is all about.<<

The “rosary” has many forms. Some seem dedicated to St Mary, as the “Hail Mary” indicates...

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.

Others are même devices (analogous to the knotted cords Gd ordered affixed to the shawls of OT Israel) for the remembrance of texts, whilst others are used in direct prayer to Gd the Father, and to Jesus Christ.

>>It's an important part of the Catholic religion. You can't help but realize this when you walk into any Catholic Church and see the candles and the pictures of the saints.<<

Isn’t it so...?—sorta like your and my wallets containing pictures of those we treasure (or venerate). Well, can’t say that I carry candles about with me though...

>>It's called the doctrine of "transubstantiation." (See Christ Among Us, A Modern Presentation of the Catholic Fatih for Adults, Anthony Wilhelm, pages 215, 216)<<

“This saying is hard...” – as the departure of many of Jesus Christ’s disciples – attest. One has to pause, as one understands that Jesus Christ and those who heard Him – spoke a common language of two millennia past; one, supposedly, having subtleties lost to us two millennia later. The ‘murmuring’ and subsequent departure of the disciples argues that they believed that Jesus Christ spoke literally – else why would they have forsaken Him upon this point?

Those disciples were first drawn to Jesus Christ because they believed; therefore, to argue that they left because He claimed special status – but (disregarding the miracles having just been witness) refused His claim of being “the bread of life” – seems somewhat questionable. It can only have been that His saying was simply too hard to take... it being literal.

Manna, a miraculous thing – as well the miracles of the preceding days – was used by Jesus Christ to initiate the discourse which followed; that is (most substantially) the words of John 6:53-56. Surely, a metaphor or symbol of common bread cannot have superceded Jesus Christ’s utilization of ‘manna’ as a precursor figurative. Moreover, using the emphatic term ‘to chew’ (in the aforementioned passage) would lend to the argument of a more spiritual and confounding expression.

Perhaps, He was speaking literally – the understanding of which still escapes us. Perhaps, it is a thing best grasped by faith. But presently as then, we know little of the spiritual body – and,

“This saying is hard, and who can hear it?"

[jasd]

1 Cor 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also [is] Christ.

1 Cor 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

1 Cor 12:14 For the body is not one member, but many.

1 Cor 12:15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

1 Cor 12:16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

1 Cor 12:17 If the whole body [were] an eye, where [were] the hearing? If the whole [were] hearing, where [were] the smelling?

1 Cor 12:18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.

1 Cor 12:19 And if they were all one member, where [were] the body?

1 Cor 12:20 But now [are they] many members, yet but one body.

Oh, migosh!—that certainly cannot be, inclusively, the Xtian community – apostates, all! Common sense forbids it.

The “body” is us. Just us. Us. Us is the .Org. – and then, only the select of it...

Do tell. [/sotto voce]

[Bravus]

Yep.

[jasd]

-bumped-

for the doctrinaire... (excluding jasd