Membership of the SDA Church....

[Bravus]

Again, it would be easy to go around and around forever on this. Definitional debates are never really all that interesting, because they end up just being clashes of people with different definitions and are therefore incapable of being resolved.

Let's go simpler. What is in effect being said to a whole range of people is "You're not actually good enough to be a member of our club, but you can hang out with us if you want..."

Attractive, no? Offer too good to refuse?

And I raised the issue earlier: the easily-felt corrollary of 'you're not good enough to be in the (church) club' is 'you're not good enough to be in the (salvation) club'.

The logic being employed by those supporting 'standards' for membership is again human, clannish, tribal, exclusive.

I'm with CoAspen, there's one standard and only one required: 'do you believe in Jesus'. And then it's up to Jesus to determine whether that's true, since 'man looks on the outward appearance but the Lord looks on the heart'.

[Woody]

Quote:

This is no different to what you are describing above.

The difference is they don't have members. SDA churches DO. You may not see it as a difference but there IS a BIG difference.

Since you don't object to the way this church does it ... would you support your local SDA church doing the same?

[Woody]

Again, it would be easy to go around and around forever on this. Definitional debates are never really all that interesting, because they end up just being clashes of people with different definitions and are therefore incapable of being resolved.

Let's go simpler. What is in effect being said to a whole range of people is "You're not actually good enough to be a member of our club, but you can hang out with us if you want..."

Attractive, no? Offer too good to refuse?

And I raised the issue earlier: the easily-felt corrollary of 'you're not good enough to be in the (church) club' is 'you're not good enough to be in the (salvation) club'.

The logic being employed by those supporting 'standards' for membership is again human, clannish, tribal, exclusive.

I'm with CoAspen, there's one standard and only one required: 'do you believe in Jesus'. And then it's up to Jesus to determine whether that's true, since 'man looks on the outward appearance but the Lord looks on the heart'.

Thank you Bravus. I'm with you on this. You can explain it far better than I. :)

[lazarus]

Here's my take:

I think the vast majority of SDA's accept the 28. When I say the 28 I mean the general statements that make up e.g.

1. That God is the Sovereign Creator, upholder, and ruler of the universe, and that He is eternal, omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent.

2. That the Godhead, the Trinity, comprises God the Father, Christ the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

3. That the Scriptures are the inspired revelation of God to men; and that the Bible is the sole rule of faith and practice.

4. That Jesus Christ is very God, and that He has existed with the Father from all eternity.

....etc.

Adventist's differ on the details that underly those general statements. Prominent Adventist leaders differ. Pastors differ. We all agree that God is to be worshiped but some of us like contemporary music some don't. It seems like some want to get us all to agree on every detail. It can't be done and any attempt to do so will be counter productive.

[Woody]

Quote:

It seems like some want to get us all to agree on every detail. I can't be done and any attempt to do so will be counter productive.

Excellent thought Laz. Thanks for jumping in the fray. :)

[Neil D]

General post....

I remember going to this church in Applegate as described by Redwood....I really don't remember what the criteria was...I do SEEM to remember something about deacons being members but I can not be sure...and yes, I do remember a separation between regular members and just occasional attender...but whether that extended into membership of regular attender, I don't remember...

Plus, to confuse this discussion even further, I remember attending a cell/halfway home where the appointed leadership were members who lived at this one house, and guests were attenders. Leadership was given to learning what the bible said, and worship...So, membership was encousage by baptism only...If you were already baptised, then you could become a regualar attender....no real thing called "membership"...and we were encouraged to attend Sunday church....we met during the week...

As a side note, when compared to the feeling of freedom to express my worship, I always feel more free to do so in a midweek service than a church service.....but of course, I'm into that "raising of hands" and worship of praise with "cymbal and harp" [aka drums and guitar] which turns a lot of you who like that piano/organ 4/4 time....

[Gerr]

The problem is the disfellowshipping (judging) of people for a perceived sin in their life. One particular Church Board decides that this perceived 'sin' is one they don't want to tolerate. And they recommend disfellowship. It's all based on the idea that we are saved by the lack of sin in our lives. And the church has to decide which members have sin. Most any sin can qualify if so desired. For it might reflect badly on the other members (the church) who think they are without sin.

I have been a SDA for over 50 yrs, Woody, and I don't recall anyone from the different churches I have ever been a member of that was ever disfellowshiped.

BTW, I'm still waiting for that example of that organization/church that has no members that's thriving well.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Woody

The problem is the disfellowshipping (judging) of people for a perceived sin in their life. One particular Church Board decides that this perceived 'sin' is one they don't want to tolerate. And they recommend disfellowship. It's all based on the idea that we are saved by the lack of sin in our lives. And the church has to decide which members have sin. Most any sin can qualify if so desired. For it might reflect badly on the other members (the church) who think they are without sin.

I have been a SDA for over 50 yrs, Woody, and I don't recall anyone from the different churches I have ever been a member of that was ever disfellowshiped.

BTW, I'm still waiting for that example of that organization/church that has no members that's thriving well.

Glad you are waiting. Just keep reading friend. And just because your anocdotal experience is lacking ... doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I've been through many a trial for members that were disfellowshipped.

And is 5,000 enough people to be classified as thriving?

[Woody]

Quote:

I remember going to this church in Applegate as described by Redwood....

Whoops. Your confession is duely noted. Now prepare for the onslaught. You heretic you.

[Woody]

Ya, sometime they don't disfellowship you, just refuse to tell another church you are a member in good standing, there fore requiring rebaptism.

Exactly CoA. And the threat is always present in our churches if you don't measure up.

[Twilight]

What is in effect being said to a whole range of people is "You're not actually good enough to be a member of our club, but you can hang out with us if you want..."

How can they "come in", if they are never "out"?

[Twilight]

Here's my take:

I think the vast majority of SDA's accept the 28. When I say the 28 I mean the general statements that make up e.g.

1. That God is the Sovereign Creator, upholder, and ruler of the universe, and that He is eternal, omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent.

2. That the Godhead, the Trinity, comprises God the Father, Christ the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

3. That the Scriptures are the inspired revelation of God to men; and that the Bible is the sole rule of faith and practice.

4. That Jesus Christ is very God, and that He has existed with the Father from all eternity.

....etc.

Adventist's differ on the details that underly those general statements. Prominent Adventist leaders differ. Pastors differ. We all agree that God is to be worshiped but some of us like contemporary music some don't. It seems like some want to get us all to agree on every detail. It can't be done and any attempt to do so will be counter productive.

Does that then mean we should throw the 28 out?

:-)

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Woody

The problem is the disfellowshipping (judging) of people for a perceived sin in their life. One particular Church Board decides that this perceived 'sin' is one they don't want to tolerate. And they recommend disfellowship. It's all based on the idea that we are saved by the lack of sin in our lives. And the church has to decide which members have sin. Most any sin can qualify if so desired. For it might reflect badly on the other members (the church) who think they are without sin.

I have been a SDA for over 50 yrs, Woody, and I don't recall anyone from the different churches I have ever been a member of that was ever disfellowshiped.

BTW, I'm still waiting for that example of that organization/church that has no members that's thriving well.

You might have missed it Gerry.

Woody has been explaining how Applegate Church, with its 150 deacons and elders do not operate "membership" of any kind.

Not very well, I might add.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: lazarus

Here's my take:

I think the vast majority of SDA's accept the 28. When I say the 28 I mean the general statements that make up e.g.

1. That God is the Sovereign Creator, upholder, and ruler of the universe, and that He is eternal, omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent.

2. That the Godhead, the Trinity, comprises God the Father, Christ the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

3. That the Scriptures are the inspired revelation of God to men; and that the Bible is the sole rule of faith and practice.

4. That Jesus Christ is very God, and that He has existed with the Father from all eternity.

....etc.

Adventist's differ on the details that underly those general statements. Prominent Adventist leaders differ. Pastors differ. We all agree that God is to be worshiped but some of us like contemporary music some don't. It seems like some want to get us all to agree on every detail. It can't be done and any attempt to do so will be counter productive.

Does that then mean we should throw the 28 out?

:-)

Why would you throw something away when as he stated: " the vast majority of SDA's accept the 28." ??

[Woody]

It's very simple Mark. Just email them and ask them since you have such doubts. it's amazing that you who have no been there seem to know better than those who have.

[Twilight]

It's very simple Mark. Just email them and ask them since you have such doubts. it's amazing that you who have no been there seem to know better than those who have.

It doesn't take much thought to see that the point does not hold up Woody.

Elders/Deacons = Church Organisation = Church Membership

[Neil D]

But you are arguing they have no membership.

That the only qualification is some "spiritual" inclination.

Is there a standard they uphold to determine that?

Does someone have to be baptised to be a deacon or elder?

Does someone have to tithe to be a deacon or elder?

Does someone have to agree to some mission statement to be a deacon or elder?

Or do they just walk in and say "I am spirit filled", to which they are placed in a chair and ordained a deacon?

Well, again, I don't remember all...I do remember that there were approximately 200 people there for the early service, and they had another 11am service which was well attended [350?], and an afternoon service, which I assume had another 200 people. That's around 700 people attending....and about 25 deacons and elders for the rest of the church services....

Trust me when I say that this place was BIG...

So, even if they have 75 elders and decons, and an attendance of 700 per week, that's a 10 to 1 ratio...

They may have been organized, but can you really say that they had a membership in the classical sense of the word???3

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Woody

It's very simple Mark. Just email them and ask them since you have such doubts. it's amazing that you who have no been there seem to know better than those who have.

It doesn't take much thought to see that the point does not hold up Woody.

Elders/Deacons = Church Organisation = Church Membership

This is why I should never answer any of your questions. I know conservatives are difficult. But even Gerry would not participate in this farce.

But if you wish to believe lies Mark ... go ahead.

For the record. I've emailed the church and asked them if they have membership. Not that you will take their word for it. But I will share the answer with you when I get it.

[Dr. Shane]

I have been a SDA for over 50 yrs, Woody, and I don't recall anyone from the different churches I have ever been a member of that was ever disfellowshiped.

Saddly, the NAD doesn't disfellowship members much like God would have them do.

My mother was disfellowshipped when I was young. That led to her repentance and rebaptism.

My wife was disfellowshipped when she was a teenager. That led to her repentance and rebaptism.

My sister-in-law was disfellowshipped. That led to her repentance and rebaptism.

The church does the member no favor when it turns a blind eye to open sin in the member's life.

[John317]

Exactly. One of my sisters was disfellowshipped, and it led to her repentence and that of her husband as well.

People can either choose to act like they haven't done wrong and rebel against being disfellowshipped or they can acknowledge that there's something wrong and repent of it and surrender totally to Christ.

[Woody]

For the record : I stated that there are many successful churches that do not have membership.

I was challenged for an example. I resisted this because I know that some who are challenging this are totally unreasonable to converse with and would not accept ANY example.

However ... I went ahead and provided an example of a church with 5,000 believers in attendance on a given Sunday.

This example as expected was challenged and those challenging it refused to contact the church.

I HAVE.

Here is the entire email response to my questioning if they have membership:

Quote:

"We do not have an official church membership. All who come here to worship our Lord are considered part of the body at Applegate Christian Fellowship.

I hope this helps you,

Janice"

This ENDS the discussion. I will not be addressing anymore petty and ignorant responses.

[tdchabot]

As a disfellowshipped former Adventist (for a perceived wrong in obtaining a divorce and re-marrying), I can say that I do attend church 2 - 3 Sabbaths per month with my husband and children. However, neither my family members nor I would return to that particular congregation as I was also told my new husband would not be welcome there. He was a former Adventist at the time, too, and now he and I attend his familial church in BC's Lower Mainland, which has been accepting and supportive. Disfellowshipping me may have removed the stain of having my divorce in their midst, but really mostly what it accomplished was my losing friends and family, while my abusive, porn addicted ex-husband remained the head deacon. As a church member since the age of 12, I have seen my own situation many times, but never seen it result in disfellowship. I have to say that neither my current husband nor myself would seek membership again, I am content to teach my children to have a personal relationship with God and to remember that any institutions, including the church, are there for fellowship only and not some kind of club or family. We never mention the disfellowshipping to my teens, who had already been told by others that their stepfather was not welcome in their old church. I think that telling them would only make them even more bitter toward those who participated in this. Anyway, my opinion is that membership is fine if you want to hold office (I did for my teenage years and most of my adult life), otherwise, as a non-member I am free to attend or to spend my weekends camping in nature with my family.

[Gail]

As a disfellowshipped former Adventist (for a perceived wrong in obtaining a divorce and re-marrying), I can say that I do attend church 2 - 3 Sabbaths per month with my husband and children. However, neither my family members nor I would return to that particular congregation as I was also told my new husband would not be welcome there. He was a former Adventist at the time, too, and now he and I attend his familial church in BC's Lower Mainland, which has been accepting and supportive. Disfellowshipping me may have removed the stain of having my divorce in their midst, but really mostly what it accomplished was my losing friends and family, while my abusive, porn addicted ex-husband remained the head deacon. As a church member since the age of 12, I have seen my own situation many times, but never seen it result in disfellowship. I have to say that neither my current husband nor myself would seek membership again, I am content to teach my children to have a personal relationship with God and to remember that any institutions, including the church, are there for fellowship only and not some kind of club or family. We never mention the disfellowshipping to my teens, who had already been told by others that their stepfather was not welcome in their old church. I think that telling them would only make them even more bitter toward those who participated in this. Anyway, my opinion is that membership is fine if you want to hold office (I did for my teenage years and most of my adult life), otherwise, as a non-member I am free to attend or to spend my weekends camping in nature with my family.

I don't know which congregation you are referring to, but I know a church where you would be welcome with open arms. The Open Door church has a disproportionate number of those who might not go elsewhere for reasons like what you've mentioned. Drop in when you're in the area!

If you come to Campmeeting, look me up at the ABC. I'd love to sit down and chat :)

[Parade Orange]

ye gads TWLIPKE!

thanku for sharing your pain! that is downright evil and ugly what your church did

so let me get this straight... when divorced for whatever reason u are disfellowshipped and NEVER to be a member again?

those idiots arent following the scriptures -to be disfellowshipped is redemptive not punitive

is that the GOD they worship?

im glad u r outa there! they dont know GOD and will teach your children not to know GOD also

and banning your new hubby? what a community of farce christians!

ye gads !

[tdchabot]

Thanks Gail...there is a chance we will go up for weekends, at least. If so, I will look you up at the ABC on one of the Sundays! Abbotsford is a bit far for me to go to church, though, since I live on the Bby/New West border. But the ODC looks really cool, and we might just drop out there one Sabbath! :-)