What was Satan's sin??

[Stan]

Comment to come.

What was Satan's sin??

[cricket]

Satan's sin began the moment he consciously decided to deceive himself and others into believing that God is unworthy of greater worship than any other. As far as I know, he hasn't stopped with his plans.

[Taylor]

Satan's sin was wanting to usurp God's place. As I heard one preacher say, "The middle letter of the word "sin" is "I". Essentially satan put "I" on the throne. He wanted to be in controll not God. It was basically selfishness.

My 2 cents.

[Gerr]

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Comment to come.

What was Satan's sin??

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The essence of sin, as I pointed out in another thread, including Satan's, is living a life apart from God. One doesn't have to kill, fornicate, etc. to commit this sin. ALL other sins are merely branches & twigs that proceed from the root & trunk of living a life apart from God. Sin is a denial that one is merely a creature & thus totally dependent on the Life-giver. Sin is a declaration of independence from the source of all being & goodness.

Gerry

[Amelia]

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As I heard one preacher say, "The middle letter of the word "sin" is "I".

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Ooooo I like that one. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif" alt="" />

[Nicodema]

Lucifer's original sin was distrust. The whole thing was really a very horrible misunderstanding, very much akin to what we can imagine it might be like for a child of about six or seven to walk into the living room one day from playing and have mother, father, and elder brother suddenly cease their conversation. Then upon inquiring what they were talking about, said child would be told that it was none of his concern and he need not bother himself about it. All he can possibly know is that he is being left out, and at that point a dark pall is cast upon what has previously been a purely harmonious relation between himself and all three family members. Now all of a sudden mother and father seem co-conspirators to shut him out and elder brother becomes a rival, something he has never been before.

The choice that was made here was one of whether to cast the consciousness of continuity with all the love he had known before, or whether this new development would turn to dark suspicions and troubled surmisings in his mind and cause him to doubt this love. Pride would make the difference, and pride did make the difference. He could not accept a situation or scenario that did not include his participation and still retain trust in the veracity of his divine family's love. He imagined the exclusion to be personal; it was not. He imagined it to conceal malicious design against himself; it did not.

He felt aggrieved and embittered, and because the only counsel he could obtain from his "divine family" was that his own thoughts and feelings were "wrong" somehow -- which confused him because he could not separate himself from them much as we cannot separate ourselves from our own -- he took to sounding out his discontent upon the sympathetic ears of his own kind, the angelic race. The more he rehearsed his increasingly unhealthy perceptions, the more he convinced himself of their reality, and the greater grew the terror he concealed inside that he might be exposed and humiliated somehow. And the greater that terror, the more powerful and compelling the need to rehearse his sense of mistreatment and find fault with his "divine family" for their decision to exclude him from that fateful conversation.

He never even stopped to think that they might have been planning a wonderful surprise for him that they did not wish spoiled ahead of time.

[Nicodema]

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Satan's sin was wanting to usurp God's place.

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That came later. Believe it or not, he didn't start out wanting to pull God off the throne. Like I said ... it was a horrible misunderstanding, one I would gladly give my life to heal, and my eternal life at that.

[Jeannieb43]

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Like I said ... it was a horrible misunderstanding, one I would gladly give my life to heal, and my eternal life at that.

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No, no, Nico! Please.

God never expects any one of us to give up our eternal life for Satan. Or for any other being in the universe.

I'm sure the reason why Lucifer fell -- why he caused the war in heaven -- will be made plain to us one day. But it wasn't anything any mortal being could have prevented.

[LifeHiscost]

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He never even stopped to think that they might have been planning a wonderful surprise for him that they did not wish spoiled ahead of time.

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All just a big family misunderstanding?

In the limited reasoning and comprehension of the human mind in its fallen nature, I can understand why we might develop the reasoning to give excuse for the arch rival of the Prince of Peace. But the reality of the Word gives a far more sinister view of what will probably always be the mystery of iniquity to us.

[:"red"] "I will make myself like the Most High." [/] Isaiah 14:14

[:"red"] "You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created until iniquity and guilt were found in you." [/] Ezekiel 28:15 AMP

[:"blue"] "It is impossible to so explain the origin of sin as to give a reason for its existence. Yet enough may be understood concerning both the origin and the final disposition of sin, to fully make manifest the justice and benevolence of God in all his dealings with evil. Nothing is more plainly taught in Scripture than that God was in nowise responsible for the entrance of sin; that there was no arbitrary withdrawal of divine grace, no deficiency in the divine government, that gave occasion for the uprising of rebellion.

Sin is an intruder, for whose presence no reason can be given. It is mysterious, unaccountable; to excuse it, is to defend it. Could excuse for it be found, or cause be shown for its existence, it would cease to be sin. Our only definition of sin is that given in the Word of God; it is "the transgression of the law;" it is the outworking of a principle at war with the great law of love which is the foundation of the divine government. {GC88 492.2}" [/]

I find the corrobarative evidence in blue to accentuate the Word to my satisfaction. If there could have been any other way to dispose of the opposition to God's perfect ways, it would have been fulfilled in God's ways. There is no doubt in my mind if we one day are able and need to have further

knowledge of our Father's just and fair way, He will reveal it in His own good time.

Meanwhile Jesus death on the cross reveals how far our Father in heaven will go to assure us we need not follow in Lucifer's footstep, no matter how satan may wish to justify his pathway of opposition to the Divine government.

Perhaps a key to the whys of satan's sin might be found in the Scripture above in which it seems to refer to Lucifer's conclusion that he thought himself to be able to order the government of heaven himself, without aid of the Divine. Would it be any different for him than for any other of God's servants who have been graciously endowed with authority of a lesser quality than the Supreme Commander.

[:"red"] "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing." [/] John 15:5 NASB

Lift Jesus up!!

[Nicodema]

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All just a big family misunderstanding?

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In terms of how it got started it was (or strikes me as) similar to one, yes. The SOP says as much; if you don't care for my version you can read hers. She stated that envy and evil surmising arose in Lucifer because of his exclusion from the council of the Most High (Father, Son, HS) and that he questioned why he had been left out. She states that this is what led to him spreading dissent among the loyal angels, etc. You'd receive her account readily I'm sure, but you won't receive mine? And why, then?

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In the limited reasoning and comprehension of the human mind in its fallen nature, I can understand why we might develop the reasoning to give

excuse

for the arch rival of the Prince of Peace.

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To explain is not to excuse. If I explain to you the reasons in my head for why I -- say for example -- cheated on my mate, that does not suddenly mean the act is either excused or right. It simply outlays the chain of events leading to the act.

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But the reality of the Word gives a far more sinister view of what will probably always be the mystery of iniquity to us.

[:"red"] "I will make myself like the Most High." [/] Isaiah 14:14

[:"red"] "You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created until iniquity and guilt were found in you." [/] Ezekiel 28:15 AMP

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Like I said -- that bit came later. It came when Lucifer perceived God as inadequate to govern based on the evil surmisings he nurtured in his heart, and determined he could -- and would -- do a better job, so to speak.

You are entitled to differ in your understanding of this from me, LHC. What you are not entitled to do is to imply that my understanding constitutes something evil or satanic because it is not yours. Unless I made my own "misunderstanding" of your post it sure seemed full of those all too familiar not-so-subtle subtle hints in that direction. And here I thought we were past that nonsense already.

[Robert]

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Comment to come.

What was Satan's sin??

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Lucifer didn't sin (in the traditional sense), rather he invented sin! This resulted in his internal "selfism" manifested outwardly through the desire to be # 1....This is the essence of all sin.

[cricket]

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Lucifer's

original sin was distrust.

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Not questioning whether or not this was Lucifer's first sin, or, the original sin of all sins.

I am wondering, however, if "distrust" is a sin in itself. Or, is there something more that must accompany this feeling in order to make it a sin? Sin has been defined so many times as the breaking of the law. Was there, indeed is there, a law in heaven? If no, then can there be any sin at all?

Among children, distrust is a common emotion. Among adults, it is even more common. But, with children, when they distrust their parents, it is not grounds for punishment. It causes frustration among the parents, but not a felt need to punish the child. Something more must have taken place in order for punishment.

By the way, Nico, when you'd written that you'd gladly give your life to clear up this misunderstanding, I have to say that unlike others, I was not taken aback. Instead, I smiled and was glad I have a friend in you!

For me, one of the main questions I have for God is, "Why could you not forgive Satan? Why did You let it get this far?"

[there buster]

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Lucifer didn't sin (in the traditional sense), rather he invented sin!

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Actually, I don't think he invented anything.

I put it this way

" But if God didn’t create the devil, did Lucifer somehow create the devil? No. Everything Lucifer had and everything he was came from God. Satan, or the devil, is not a new kind of being, but what we might call a “failed being,” a creature ravaged and deformed by sin.

Does this mean that the devil created sin? No. Then where did sin and evil come from? From the same place as darkness, cold, and death.

A number of years ago, I visited a newspaper photo lab. Above the darkroom door, a red light indicated when the lights inside the darkroom were turned off. Just below this red light, a sign explained: “This is a darkroom. Please don’t open this door when the red light is on. If you do, all the dark will leak out.” We laugh, because we realize the problem isn’t keeping the darkness in but keeping the light out. Darkness is nearly nothing at all. A single small candle can illuminate an otherwise completely dark room. Strike a match at night, and it can be seen for miles.

In a real sense, none of these—darkness, cold, sin—actually exist except as negations, as shadows. We can purchase a light bulb to brighten a dark place, but we can’t buy a “dark bulb” to dim a bright one. We can only block out the light. We can light a fire and warm a cold place, but even when we refrigerate something, we move heat rather than cold.

Evil has no independent existence

Similarly, evil has no independent existence. As a shadow betrays the absence of light, sin indicates the absence of—what? Some would say “obedience,” but that’s not quite it. Robots obey, but they cannot be righteous. We could call it “faith” and its absence “doubt,” which would be closer. But faith can mean merely “belief,” that is, assenting to certain truths. And that’s not it either, for we know that even the demons believe—and shudder.3

Faith can also mean “complete trust or confidence,” and that’s the concept we’ve been seeking. As the psalmist said, “Blessed is the man who makes the Lord his trust.”4 Trust forms the substance of a healthy, living, loving relationship with God. Distrust and doubt, in the sense of disbelief and suspicion, are just the shadows that remain when trust departs. Lucifer became the devil when he ceased to trust the way God had made him, when he doubted God’s love, and when he became suspicious of God’s government.

When we see distrust, doubt, and suspicion, we recognize the emptiness we call “evil.” That emptiness has always existed. Lucifer did not invent emptiness; he was just the first to embrace it. He did not invent death; he just abandoned Him who is Life. He did not invent darkness; he rejected light. He did not invent cold; he distanced himself from warmth."

"Did God Create the Devil," SIGNS, Jan 2005

"Did God Create the DEvil"

[Robert]

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He did not invent death; he just abandoned Him who is Life.

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Why? He coveted position...He wanted to be # 1 thus placing himself outside life....

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He did not invent darkness; he rejected light.

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Why did He reject light (God is light)? Same reason, he invented self-love!

Lucifer invented sin....God did not create sin....God made Lucifer with a nature that was selfless....It was Lucifer who began to question God's kingdom of selflessness....When and where I do not know! How could a sinless being be inclined to oppose God? I don't know...it is a mystery. All that I know is that Lucifer invented sin....

[there buster]

I see you missed the point. O.K. You win some, you lose some.

[LifeHiscost]

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You are entitled to differ in your understanding of this from me, LHC. What you are not entitled to do is to imply that my understanding constitutes something evil or satanic because it is not yours. Unless I made my own "misunderstanding" of your post it sure seemed full of those all too familiar not-so-subtle subtle hints in that direction. And here I thought we were past that nonsense already.

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Sorry you have found negative implications in the reasoning you believe personally addressed to you.

[:"red"] "If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men." [/] Romans 12:18 NASB

Lift Jesus up!!

[Nicodema]

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I am wondering, however, if "distrust" is a sin in itself. Or, is there something more that must accompany this feeling in order to make it a sin?

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I have wondered similar things, considering EGW's take on this (which differs only marginally from my own but in this respect is highly similar).

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Among children, distrust is a common emotion. Among adults, it is even more common. But, with children, when they distrust their parents, it is not grounds for punishment. It causes frustration among the parents, but not a felt need to punish the child. Something more must have taken place in order for punishment.

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BUT, as I've often heard, we live in a world already tainted with sin where distrust is not the fault it would be in a world where there was only perfection. Eve however distrusted God's word at the suggestion of the serpent and that was her fault. The disloyal angels distrusted the Throne at the suggestions of Lucifer and that was their fault as well, etc. ...

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By the way, Nico, when you'd written that you'd gladly give your life to clear up this misunderstanding, I have to say that unlike others, I was not taken aback. Instead, I smiled and was glad I have a friend in you!

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I call it singing the Song of Moses and of the Lamb. It comes with the territory of emulating Jesus Christ, of seeking to follow in His footsteps, and is especially reserved for those of us with Judas or Luciferian experiences or complexes. (*wink*)

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For me, one of the main questions I have for God is, "Why could you not forgive Satan? Why did You let it get this far?"

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You and me both. I want to know exactly what was done and why it did not suffice. I also want to know why his case is different from ours, why he should be a victim of the virus in a way we are not.

[Nicodema]

I remember reading that article, Ed, and I thought it was very insightful. What are the implications for those religions that hold the embracing of emptiness as a goal in itself, do you think that is a notion which originates with Satan, then? Or do you think it's a different kind of emptiness and reflects the work of the Holy Spirit in that particular culture? Just wondering.

[Nicodema]

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Sorry you have found negative implications in the reasoning you believe personally addressed to you.

[:"red"] "If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men." [/] Romans 12:18 NASB

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What I need to hear from you is whether they were found because you put them there or not. If so, I need you to acknowledge that. If not, I need you to help me clear up the misunderstanding that my own mind is obviously responsible for. Either one can bring the peace you spoke of.

[Nicodema]

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As I heard one preacher say, "The middle letter of the word "sin" is "I".

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Ooooo I like that one.

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Not to be contentious unnecessarily, but I don't, frankly. Everything that is toxic and unhealthy in our world stems from people carrying around bags full of shame and self-loathing which then become translated into negative things toward other people. Christianity could help eradicate this issue by promoting the gospel (good news) of forgiveness by God in Christ; instead we're busy fabricating more reasons -- fallacious ones typically -- for people to hate themselves and feel shame. And cute little denigrations of "I" fit right in here. Sorry to be a wet blanket, but our Creator created each one of us with a self and died to personally, individually redeem each of those selves. "Self" in itself is NOT evil and NOT the problem. It is when the self behaves selfISHly or always puts self first that sin and problems come into the picture. But the independent existence of something called "I" is NOT the problem and NOT the great evil. EACH one of us has one, and if we do not learn to treat it with the same compassionate love the Saviour has for it, our mission to love one another will be likewise doomed, for it was AS we love ourselves that Christ bade us to love one another, and the person eaten up with guilt, shame and self-loathing loves no one, not even himself.

OK, off my for now ....

[Robert]

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it was AS we love ourselves that Christ bade us to love one another

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Christ did not say that! Here's what He said:

• You shall love your neighbor as yourself

How should you, according the law, love your neighbor?

Answer: As you love yourself!

The Bible does not say, "You shall love your neighbor and yourself"! No, you are to love your neighbor in the same way that you naturally love yourself!

As Christ hung on the cross experiencing God’s curse for our sins, Jesus had to make a choice. He could not save Himself and the world at the same time. And He did make the supreme choice. He chose to die eternally that you and I may live in His place. That is what transformed the disciples. They were so shocked! They had not understood such love before as this. It is this concept of agape that turned the world upsidedown, that God not only came down for thirty-three years, but Jesus their Savior was willing to say good-bye to life forever that they may live in His place. “But God demonstrated His love that while we were still sinners Christ died for us” (Romans 5:8).

[there buster]

Nico,

I don't say such things lightly, but I love your new sig line!

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What are the implications for those religions that hold the embracing of emptiness as a goal in itself, do you think that is a notion which originates with Satan, then? Or do you think it's a different kind of emptiness and reflects the work of the Holy Spirit in that particular culture?

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And Wow! What a good question! Frankly, I'm not easily impressed, but you blew me away with this post and sig.

As you know, I think evil always existed, the way darkness and cold do, as negations, as the absence of something else which is real and present.

Every false religion (perhaps excluding Satanism, though I doubt it) is a mixture of good and bad. We're never tempted, I believe, with pure evil, because in the end it is nothing. We are tempted to acquire some real good in an illicit way, or some evil masquerades as a real good.

So Eve was not asked, "Why don't you disobey God and rebel against Him," but, "Wouldn't you like to be like God, knowing good from evil?" This was evil masquerading as good.

Before she disobeyed, Eve knew only good. Once she sinned, she got to know evil all right. It sounded like such a good thing, "to be like God." If the Serpent had said, "Wouldn't you like to experience death, distrust, grief, and loss?" she would have run away screaming. But he said, "If you eat, you'll be like God, knowing good from evil."

The Eastern religions don't embrace 'nothingness' because it is good. They embrace it because it looks good compared to pain. Pain is their fundamental reality--"life is pain"--and anything that allows escape from reality is considered a blessing.

Sooo, that's my answer. It is a deception, because it offers a false choice, an evil masquerading as good. As a deception, it comes from the father of lies.

I love this translation of John 8:44

" When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies."

"his native language"

Wish I'd written that.

[Robert]

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I would gladly give my life to heal, and my eternal life at that.

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You can't legally do that! The Bible is plain: "The soul [person] that sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son...." Ez 18:20

Guilt and righteousness are not transferable! The law demands that the person who sins must die. You, being a sinner, cannot die for another sinner. Even if you were righteous, you couldn't die in the place of the sinner.

To legally save the fallen human race, Christ had to unite Himself to us. He came to save the human race from "the curse of the law" - the 2nd death.

Please note that He assumed our fallen human life, not the life of angels. That is a very important point! Go to Hebrews 2:14

• "Since then the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 and might deliver those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives. 16 For assuredly He [Christ] does not take hold of angels, but He takes hold of the descendants of Abraham." NASB

Christ did not legally justify Satan and the fallen angels. He did not partake of the spirit of angels! In other words He assumed mankind's life - not the life of angels.

Since Satan and His angels have not been justified, they will not gain eternal life.

[Robert]

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I think evil always existed

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If evil always existed then God had to create it....Then one must blame God, not Lucifer, for evil!

[there buster]

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If evil always existed then God had to create it....Then one must blame God, not Lucifer, for evil!

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"It's not what he doesn't know that worries me. It's what he knows for sure that ain't so!"

Will Rogers