What was Satan's sin??

[Nicodema]

Ed, thanks for your compliments. I can't take credit for the sig line other than for using it -- I attended a Conflict Resolution seminar last sabbath at church and this was a line quoted from somewhere else by the man presenting the seminar. Great line, isn't it?

The question was mine though, and you gave a good answer. If I believed all life was suffering, and all suffering born of attachments, and I was sentenced to reincarnate over and over until I'd rid myself of all attachments, I'd want to embrace emptiness too. But I'm sometimes concerned that we as Christians hold this same goal out under our own "native language" when we confuse a self that sins, or a sinful self, with the idea that having a self itself is evil. And I'm sometimes concerned -- on a separate but related note -- that we as Christians miss the way of Jesus when we focus so hard upon the effort to achieve sinless perfection instead of the effort to do what Jesus did: bind up, mend, liberate, forgive; and the Way Jesus taught: to repent, to love, to forgive, to reconcile. If there is no fault to begin with, there is nothing to repent of, nothing upon which to exercise compassion, no call for forgiveness, and nothing to reconcile. I think the drive for perfectionism comes from the father of lies as well, as a mixed good-'n'-evil product of his "native tongue" seducing us to try to AVOID the narrower path to which the Lord has called us. Narrower because it's harder, it's tougher, it requires more from us than does trying/pretending to be perfect and/or seeking to push everyone else to be perfect (so we won't have to do/be all those hard things for/to them).

Just some thoughts ...

N.

[there buster]

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when we focus so hard upon the effort to achieve sinless perfection

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Yes, I have a workshop I give (also a book outline) on the topic "Knowing God is Not Enough," (Matt 7:23) on what it means to have a real relationship with Jesus Christ.

In one section I discuss what I call "double-negative" righteousness, where righteousness is judged by "not breaking" the commandments. Besides pointing out that by this standard, every corpse is righteous (in both thought and deed), I point out that, even if successful, we only "empty the house." And that brings on even worse results (Matt 12:43-45).

I have another presentation where I talk about the word and concept "self." There I have a chart comparing bad references to the self (e.g., self-centered) with good references (e.g., self-controlled). I go on to point out that if we hate ourselves, then we're unlikely to love our neighbor. The earlier post was correct. One of the problems Christians have is that too often we do actually love our neighbors in exactly the same way we love ourselves. After "mortifying" our own selves, we feel entitled to do the same service for them.

[Robert]

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I go on to point out that if we hate ourselves, then we're unlikely to love our neighbor. The earlier post was correct

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Self-hate is the result of self-love!

"What?"

Let me say that again, "Self-hate is the result of self-love!"

Self-hate is based on competition - the desire to be # 1. Those who can't measure up feel inferior, which produces all types of sins. They begin to hate themselves...

Again, why? Because their self-love prompts them to compare...to compete....

That is why Pastor Sequira states that,

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Everything

...that goes to make up this worldly system (kosmos) — nationalism, tribalism, politics,

education

, commerce, recreation,

sports

, social clubs, technology, etc. — is founded upon the principle of love of self, even though at times this principle may not be obvious.

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[there buster]

Robert, just because you have a hammer, it doesn't mean that everything else is a nail.

[Robert]

[Robert]

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"Since then the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise

also partook of the same

, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 and might deliver those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives. 16 For assuredly He [Christ]

does not take hold of angels, but He takes hold of the descendants of Abraham."

NASB

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Verse 17 For this reason he [Christ as God] had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.

Again, Satan and his angels are not human and therefore they were not included in the humanity that Christ took upon on Himself at the incarnation. Satan has never been justified through Christ's doing and dying.

Your argument Nico, is that you believe that in the end Satan confesses his sin to Christ and is therefore saved. The problem is that confession without justification is worthless.

Confession of sin without any legal justification only compounds Satan's guilt under the law.

[Nicodema]

[haiku :: solution]

Five little words that

fall between asterisks, three

on each side. Such peace.

[LifeHiscost]

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Sorry you have found negative implications in the reasoning you believe personally addressed to you.

>>What I need to hear from you is whether they were found because you put them there or not. If so, I need you to acknowledge that.<< If not, I need you to help me clear up the misunderstanding that my own mind is obviously responsible for. Either one can bring the peace you spoke of.

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Sorry I took so long to get back to you on this, Nico. However the Lord did not give me freedom to answer right away. I hope this answers the need you have expressed. I want you to know I'm making effort to follow our Lord's instruction as He has given it to me. The Scriptures used are directly applied to me. And if you accept them I'm sure God will make them a blessing to you also.

[:"red"] "Love....is ever ready to believe the best of every person, its hopes are fadeless under all circumstances, and it endures everything [without weakening]." [/] 1 Cor 13:7

The fact that you may have seen implications of subtle (or not so) is not surprising to me. Do you remember when Jesus spoke to Peter after Peter had responded to the information Jesus had given to him about His own coming crucifixion?

And remember Peter was a part of the nucleous of the beginnings of the Christian church. Here are Jesus' exact words to Peter.

[:"red"] "But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men." [/] Mark 8:33 KJV

I happen to agree with you about the family situation between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. However I also believe that when one of our Father's children are in error that could cause great damage, I don't believe He always minces words to stifle that possible damage.

You mentioned the implications found in the message I posted

were not so subtle. And perhaps they weren't. But they weren't mine. If it was satan trying to discourage you, I can understand why you would need to make a distinction as to where the innuendos came from. If they were from God you can find solace in these two facts.

[:"red"] "If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten?" [/] Hebrews 12:7 NKJV

[:"red"] "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent. " [/] Revelation 3:19 Hebrews 12:7 NKJV

And maybe this third fact.

[:"red"] "For God did not send the Son into the world in order to judge (to reject, to condemn, to pass sentence on) the world, but that the world might find salvation and be made safe and sound through Him." [/] John 3:17

I have found in the latter part of my Christian experience on this earth, that every Word of Scripture is based on love, designed that man might know God for Who He is. When there seems to be a discouraging Word from God from the Scripture, in my mind, I choose to find the love in the message as opposed to desiring to change the Word to fit my emotions. Of course that only benefits one who believes God to be totally Sovereign over all circumstances, not just the ones that make us feel good.

Some foundational Scriptures I continually go back to, when I feel assaulted by another of God's children for lack of understanding on the part of either person, me or the other person. One is,

[:"red"] "I have testimony weightier than that of John. For the very work that the Father has given me to finish, and which I am doing, testifies that the Father has sent me. " [/] John 5:36 NIV

[:"red"] "Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything." [/] James 1:4 NIV

[:"red"] "This Good News tells us how God makes us right in his sight. This is accomplished from start to finish by faith." [/] Romans 1:17 NLT

[:"red"] "Pay all your debts, except the debt of love for others. You can never finish paying that! If you love your neighbor, you will fulfill all the requirements of God's law" [/] Romans 13:8 NLT

[:"red"] "We do this by keeping our eyes on Jesus, on whom our faith depends from start to finish. [ Or Jesus, the Originator and Perfecter of our faith.]" [/] Hebrews 12:2 NLT

Sorry to have made this so long, but every time I couldn't find the text I was looking for, another would pop up that I just could't bring myself to leave out. And if it seems that God's Words cannot be distinguished from my personal opinion, lay part of that to the fact that when we speak from the Word, God promises to affirm it by His Holy Spirit.

Keep looking up!

Lift Jesus up!!

[Nicodema]

Thanks for your response, LHC. I'm not sure I understand all of it, but thanks for taking the time and care and effort to make it.

One of these days it would be nice to be able to interact with fellow Christians and not be treated like a Suspected Intruder who reeks of brimstone.

[Nicodema]

But until that day comes ...

Once, many moons ago, when I was not with God, I wrote that Satan's original sin was that he wanted God to be real. (This was an exploration of thought, not a statement contending for the title of truth.) I'm still trying to remember what it was I meant by that. I think it had to do with theological impasse, and that he wanted God to be consistent when it came to the insoluble paradox of free will, to wit: that once under reign of the Virus (sin), the will is no longer free, but is afflicted and controlled itself by that affliction. This is the reason we as human beings required a salvific divine intervention, and also the reason why it is absolutely true to state that Jesus died on the cross to preserve liberty, to ensure and restore our freedom, for there is no liberty or freedom where the will is not free, and there is no freedom of will where enslavement to sin exists. Having sinned once, Lucifer became a victim of his own Virus, with his nature conforming to it, and his will has never been free since.

I'm not saying that he can or will be saved, but for such a thing to occur, it would require a salvific intervention like that provided upon the Cross to humanity. Do we have any material from the Bible or the SoP to explain why no provision was made for the salvation of fallen angels? I'm just wondering.

If we all with one accord, the redeemed, were to present ourselves to the Throne of God in that Last Day and offer ourselves as an eternal sacrifice for the redemption of Lucifer, would that not be proof of a love so compelling, so irresistable, so perfected, so Christlike, so wondrous, that perhaps even the spirit of hatred and murder and lies would be drawn, would cry out for freedom from the Virus we call sin? Again, not making any dogmatic statements here, just exploring thoughts.

[Robert]

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from the Virus we call sin?

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If sin were a virus God could remove it. Instead of fixing us and making us presentable, He left our fallen humanity in the grave. In its place He resurrected a glorified humanity free from indwelling sin and took it to heaven.

Lucifer hardened his heart against God. Lucifer doesn't desire to be "saved" for he hates God with unending passion. He hates His selflessness. In compete contrast Satan believes that the first will be first...After all his kingdom is based on self-seeking and climbing the ladder of self-importance.

Because of this hardening process in Satan's heart, Jesus did not include Him in that humanity that He assumed at the incarnation.

• -BC- FLB

  -TI- The Faith I Live By

  -CN- 3

  -CT- Satan And The Great Rebellion

  -PR- 03

  -PG- 68

  Sin originated in self-seeking. Lucifer, the covering cherub, desired to be first in heaven. He sought to gain control of heavenly beings, to draw them away from their Creator, and to win their homage to himself. Therefore he misrepresented God, attributing to Him the desire for self-exaltation. With his own evil characteristics he sought to invest the loving Creator.

[Kevin H]

Satan's sin is that while he asked excellent questions, he prefered to pat himself on the back for having the cleverness to come up with the questions instead of looking for answers.

Now he's become too hardened to accept the answers.

[LifeHiscost]

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But until that day comes ...

(This was an exploration of thought, not a statement contending for the title of truth.)

Again, not making any dogmatic statements here, just exploring thoughts.

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Your story of making effort for the redemption of all God's

children, past, present and future, probably is not without the merit of compassion that can only come from a Savior Who shed tears when He gave to Lucifer the knowledge of his final destiny.

I'm not sure whether it is just from a heart that is too

hard to soften or from the knowledge I've accepted from the Spirit of Prophecy about satan's final end, that has led me to an almost total ignoring of satan's predicament, as a futile effort to be avoided since it promises to bring no redemption to the subjects involved. It seems almost like pursueing the question of why God just didn't determine not to create Lucifer in the firstplace, when He certainly knew that eventually Lucifer would abandon his allegiance to the King of Glory.

The answer for me for the present is found in the verse,

[:"red"] "

"For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," says the LORD." [/] Isaiah 55:8 NKJV

OTOH there has been some recognition, I believe from God, that reminded me that Lucifer was created in perfect illumination from the throne, access to reservoirs of information from time eternal, about God's unlimited expanse of love, that would have answered every question he might have had, that he needed to fit into his created purpose for existence.

I believe his fall came because he chose to disbelieve those answers given, and since he refused them while in perfect light there could be no further effort on God's part that would change his mind, God already having given all that had possibility of bridging the separation created by Lucifer's unbelief. And thus Lucifer, the son of the morning, became the prince of darkness. It's impossible for us to know of the heartbreak in the heart of the Deity over the tragedy.

As for ourselves, seemingly in a hopeless state, in a world of darkness that cannot be plumbed by anything less than the shed blood of Jesus, why should we not receive the same wages as Lucifer? I believe it again is found in the words of the Prince of Peace, as He hung dying on the cross, being murdered by His own creation.

[:"red"] "Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do." [/] Luke 23:34 KJV

There are some in the present Christian community that would deny the absence of enough personal knowledge that would allow them to perform such a horrible injustice to the gentle Jesus. But again I differ from that theology, based on the words of Peter at a time when he was under severe stress, torn between saving his own skin, or the possibility of dying alongside the Messiah.

Perhaps I judge too harshly for we do not all have the same weaknesses to the same excess.

[:"red"] "And at once for the second time a [censored] crowed. And Peter remembered how Jesus said to him, Before a [censored] crows twice, you will utterly deny Me [disclaiming all connection with Me] three times. And having put his thought upon it [and remembering], he broke down and wept aloud and lamented." [/] Mark 14:72 AMP

Praise God that Peter accepted the gift of repentance offered.

God bless!

[:"red"] "God exalted Him to His right hand to be Prince and Leader and Savior and Deliverer and Preserver, in order to grant repentance to Israel and to bestow forgiveness and release from sins." [/] Acts 5:31 AMP

Lift Jesus up!!

[Nicodema]

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Satan's sin is that while he asked excellent questions, he prefered to pat himself on the back for having the cleverness to come up with the questions instead of looking for answers.

Now he's become too hardened to accept the answers.

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Now THAT's what I call a clever answer!

[Nicodema]

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Your story of making effort for the redemption of all God's children, past, present and future, probably is not without the merit of compassion that can only come from a Savior Who shed tears when He gave to Lucifer the knowledge of his final destiny.

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I would like to think so myself. However, I cannot know for certain because I do not know myself perfectly as God does.

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... Lucifer was created in perfect illumination from the throne, access to reservoirs of information from time eternal, about God's unlimited expanse of love, that would have answered every question he might have had, that he needed to fit into his created purpose for existence.

I believe his fall came because he chose to disbelieve those answers given, and since he refused them while in perfect light there could be no further effort on God's part that would change his mind, God already having given all that had possibility of bridging the separation created by Lucifer's unbelief. And thus Lucifer, the son of the morning, became the prince of darkness. It's impossible for us to know of the heartbreak in the heart of the Deity over the tragedy.

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There was a time I would have stated that I knew that heartbreak, for I thought I felt it in myself so keenly. Now I am not certain, since it was one of the strongest links in a chain of events that led to my own downfall and deception. It is not that I do not trust its origin; it is that I simply cannot know for certain.

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As for ourselves, seemingly in a hopeless state, in a world of darkness that cannot be plumbed by anything less than the shed blood of Jesus, why should we not receive the same wages as Lucifer? I believe it again is found in the words of the Prince of Peace, as He hung dying on the cross, being murdered by His own creation.

[:"red"] "Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do." [/] Luke 23:34 KJV

There are some in the present Christian community that would deny the absence of enough personal knowledge that would allow them to perform such a horrible injustice to the gentle Jesus. But again I differ from that theology, based on the words of Peter at a time when he was under severe stress, torn between saving his own skin, or the possibility of dying alongside the Messiah.

Perhaps I judge too harshly for we do not all have the same weaknesses to the same excess.

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I agree with you on both points, for the record, and I believe we all have the same fundamental weakness of not knowing ourselves as thoroughly or perfectly as God does. I once thought, naively, that nothing could ever induce me to turn from God or deny Him. Clearly that was before I actually did. May He graciously grant me the same repentance He granted Peter, and not the fate instead of Judas or of Satan, which is closer to what I deserve.

N.

[LifeHiscost]

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**we all have the same fundamental weakness of not knowing ourselves as thoroughly or perfectly as God does.

***May He graciously grant me the same repentance He granted Peter

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A few points.

Re: ** [:"red"] "If anyone supposes that he knows anything, he has not yet known as he ought to know... " [/] 1 Corinthians 8:2 NASB

[:"red"] "now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." [/] 1 Corinthians 13:12 KJV

Re: *** [:"red"] "This is a true saying, and everyone should believe it: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners--and I was the worst of them all." [/]

1 Timothy 1:15 NLT

Lift Jesus up!!