The understanding of Heart and Mind during Apostolic times.

[Twilight]

Here's what Strong's says "heart" means:

Quote:

1) the heart

a) that organ in the animal body which is the centre of the circulation of the blood, and hence was regarded as the seat of physical life

denotes the centre of all physical and spiritual life

1) the vigour and sense of physical life

2) the centre and seat of spiritual life

a) the soul or mind, as it is the fountain and seat of the thoughts, passions, desires, appetites, affections, purposes, endeavours

of the understanding, the faculty and seat of the intelligence

c) of the will and character

d) of the soul so far as it is affected and stirred in a bad way or good, or of the soul as the seat of the sensibilities, affections, emotions, desires, appetites, passions

c) of the middle or central or inmost part of anything, even though inanimate

Mark, do you have any issues with this?

I have issue with some of this, but I do not want to make this discussion about "Strong's" understanding as has been defined in 2a and 2b.

Unless that can be shown to be the view of the people at the time.

I rather suspect this is an inserted later understanding.

But if we study the bible, we do not need to rely on whether Strong's is right or wrong, but rather on whether the bible teaches this point.

Again, the danger here is that we could rely on "authoritative opinion".

I am getting the sense Pnat, that you are trying to appeal to "authority" to support your views.

So far you have based arguments from:

1) General opinion.

2) Educated opinion.

3) Schorlarly opinion.

I want us to avoid all of this and not argue about what the "general opinion" is, or what your "educated opinion" is, or what Strongs "scholarly opinion" is.

I want us to just allow the texts to speak for themselves.

But I am beginning to understand that your arguments are based on finding "authority in opinion" that support your own "opinion".

I do not mean to be rude saying this, but rather criticising your reasoning process, so that you might see it and have another look at how you arrive at "truth".

Hopefully that does not offend.

[Twilight]

We need to just take this from the bible or we are never going to get anywhere...

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

Pnat, you cannot possibly "know" that Jesus spoke Aramaic when speaking at that point. You can "assume". But you cannot "know".

As I stated in the example I gave, if I heard that Mark Twain had given a public speech, what language would I think He spoke in? English, of course. Why? Because that's the language that people here speak. It's possible he could give a public discourse in some other language, but doesn't make much sense. So I can't "know" that Mark Twain spoke in English while given public discourses, but it's certainly likely.

Quote:

How do you know He did not speak in Greek, how do you know He did not speak in Hebrew at that specific time?

There would have been no reason whatsoever for Christ to have spoken in Greek. In a private discourse, with well educated people, like the Pharisees or Saducees, it's conceivable Christ could have spoken in Hebrew. However, in the example you gave, which was before a great crowd, there would have been many illiterate, and it would have made no sense for Christ to have spoken in a language that the majority of His listeners would not have understood.

Quote:

I do not see how you can say you "know".

I've explained how.

Regarding the rest, I don't see why you're making these comments. If you have something to present, please present it. All you've presented so far is that the Gospels translated Jesus' quotation of the Shema with the word "mind." Do you have anything else to present?

[pnattmbtc]

I have issue with some of this, but I do not want to make this discussion about "Strong's" understanding as has been defined in 2a and 2b.

Unless that can be shown to be the view of the people at the time.

I rather suspect this is an inserted later understanding.

[pnattmbtc]

We need to just take this from the bible or we are never going to get anywhere.

As I've been requesting for some time now, please present what you have to present.

[Twilight]

Sorry Pnat.

I am just finding this conversation frustrating now.

I have decided to withdraw from it.

You believe that the heart is basically a function of the mind.

I have no issue with your belief and do not want to change it, if you want to maintain that.

But I do not think this conversation is going to be productive, when we cannot even find agreement that there is a distinction between heart and mind in the opening texts.

If that simple observation is going to take 3 pages to discuss, then I do not have the "heart" for any more of this discussion.

Sorry Pnat.

I am out of this, I am a busy man and this type of conversation is not one I have time for. :-)

God bless you in your search for truth.

Mark :-)

[pnattmbtc]

Sorry Pnat.

I am just finding this conversation frustrating now.

I have decided to withdraw from it.

This is pretty much what I expected, unfortunately. I was hoping you would have something to present.

If things change, and you do have something to present, I'd be glad to see it.

[pnattmbtc]

But I do not think this conversation is going to be productive, when we cannot even find agreement that there is a distinction between heart and mind in the opening texts.

To be clear, no one took issue that there was a distinction between heart and mind in the opening texts. This is obvious.

You asked the question why there were the words "heart and mind" used, as opposed to simply "heart," and that's what the discussion involved.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Sorry Pnat.

I am just finding this conversation frustrating now.

I have decided to withdraw from it.

This is pretty much what I expected, unfortunately. I was hoping you would have something to present.

If things change, and you do have something to present, I'd be glad to see it.

Same thing happened in my discussion with him.

[Gordon1]

What does pnattmbtc represent? Is this an acronym?

(slightly off topic, but doesn't look Greek to me)

[Twilight]

I will lay my case out simply Pnat, for your consideration, maybe that was my mistake.

This is my understanding.

God has created us with a "mind and heart system".

The mind is the seat of the thoughts.

The heart is the seat of the basic "laws" that govern our nature (we could call these desires, inclinations and emotions).

The mind is the gateway to the heart.

Everything in the heart before conversion is a result of inheritance or the result of programming.

An unconverted heart is linked to the "flesh", in other words it is joined to the carnal nature.

The flesh and heart in the unconverted man are so intertwined as to be completely dominant over the mind.

Now the heart, sends data to the mind at what you would call a "subconcious level".

This data is so powerful, that whatever is in the heart, directs the mind.

At times the bible talks about the system of "heart and mind" and calls it the "heart".

At other times, it specifies between the "heart" and the "mind" to show the difference between the thoughts and feelings.

Now it gets interestings.

The Holy Spirit takes up residence in the "Temple" of man, the "Body" of man.

But specifically in the "heart" of man.

Now the Holy Spirit starts on the work of seperating the heart from the "flesh", which the bible calls circumcision.

God wants sole dominion of the heart, to do that, He has to cut the flesh's influence away from the heart.

This means a literal change in the neural network of the mind AND heart (which science is starting to discover that the heart has a neural network).

God literally "rewrites" the wiring of the heart, physically, as He does with the mind.

This is what we call "sanctification".

This is "Christ formed within".

This is when we personally receive the "character of Christ", because we have the thoughts and feelings of Christ.

Which comes because we have been changed into His likeness internally.

Another aspect of this, is that the Holy Spirit is leading us from within.

Once we know He dwells in the heart, we start to listen to our heart for His instruction.

Learning to do this, is paramount for a close walk with God, we must listen and we must know where to listen.

It also aids us, when the enemy tempts us.

When the enemy tempts the converted believer, he always come through the mind.

He attempts to trick us into believing the old man is alive (the flesh), that it has not been circumcised, and then through lack of faith, the enemy gains control of our heart through our mind.

So when temptation comes, it always comes in the realm of the mind but satan is after the "heart", the throne of God.

But when the Holy Spirit leads, He leads in our hearts which "registers" often in the mind (our mind can listen to the hearts messages).

The Holy Spirit communes with the heart through the nerve endings, so His presence in the heart region is the means of communication with the heart.

He also communes with us through our minds, but the experience of communion of the Holy Spirit in the heart is reserved for those that are born again.

I think that pretty much covers it.

There is nothing here that cannot be founded on scripture.

But the argument against it is always really the same one.

"The heart is just a pump", which is basically a belief system built on a 20th century reliance on psychology, which many Adventists have mistakenly used to interpret the Bible and SOP.

The heart is not just a pump, the heart is an integral part to our "inner man" and stores our emotions, feeling and desires.

As the bible teaches.

Of course, I expect to be stoned as a heretic for presenting such a view, but that I do not mind.

It is the truth as far as I can discern, the only arguments against it often being non-biblical "science" arguments.

It is also taught in the sanctuary service amongst other places.

[pnattmbtc]

What does pnattmbtc represent? Is this an acronym?

Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

[pnattmbtc]

Thanks for posting that Mark. I agree that would have been a good place to start.

You say this can all be substantiated from Scripture. I know this is work, but I think it would be worthwhile. Could you repost what you wrote, and interject the Scriptures you see supporting the points you are making?

[John317]

in other words, we dont know what Jesus exact words were in anything that is recorded.

All we have are the Gospels and they're all we need as far as Jesus' words are concerned. Jesus' Spirit inspired the Gospels, so it is the same thing as having Jesus's very words.

The Jesus Seminar shows what happens when people start cutting up the Gospels according to what they believe Jesus actually said. The Seminar only accepts a small portion of the words in the Gospels as Jesus' actual words.

I think we have to assume that the Gospels show us what God wants us to know. The Gospels take precedence over what Christ actually might have said at the time he spoke the words. He probably spoke mostly Aramaic, but He very well could have spoken some Greek. The Gospels are inspired and therefore they are the words that Christ wants us to have.

There are also some differences between the Hebrew text of the Old Testament and the Greek translation (and sometimes paraphrase) of the Hebrew, but both the Hebrew and the Greek translation are Scripture and we need to be willing to accept both of them as such.

[John317]

You make a good case but I'm wondering if it is the literal heart.

One of my wife's best friends has a daughter who received a heart-transplant when she was a baby. So she of course has someone else's heart. How does that affect the spiritual situation, according to your view?

Wouldn't it be quite different if we were talking about a brain transplant? That seems pretty obvious. If a brain were transplanted, we would literally have a different person inside a different body since the brain contains all of our thoughts and memories and seems to be the place where all our decisions are made.

However, when we transplant a heart, are we changing the person?

Or let's take the transplanting of a monkey's heart or a pig's heart into a human (which happens). Does that make the person take on any of the characteristics of a pig or monkey?

And finally, if I have to receive a heart transplant, should I be concerned whether the doner is a dedicated Christian or not? Or say the doner was a serial murderer, could it make any difference in my relationship and walk with Christ?

I haven't read all of the thread before writing, so I'm not sure if you've already dealt with these ideas or questions. :-)

[pnattmbtc]

in other words, we dont know what Jesus exact words were in anything that is recorded.

J:All we have are the Gospels and they're all we need as far as Jesus' words are concerned. Jesus' Spirit inspired the Gospels, so it is the same thing as having Jesus's very words.

What do you mean by, "it is the same thing"?

[pnattmbtc]

You wrote:

Quote:

The mind is the seat of the thoughts.

The heart is the seat of the basic "laws" that govern our nature (we could call these desires, inclinations and emotions).

Strong's says heart is:

Quote:

the soul or mind, as it is the fountain and seat of the thoughts, passions, desires, appetites, affections, purposes, endeavours

This is 2.a. Strong's says more than this, but this is the part that's closes to the thought you were expressing.

A. Graham Maxwell spoke of the "heart" being where a man does his deepest thinking. I couldn't find anything written online to quote, but I recall him saying something like this, and this definition sort of stuck with me.

So I guess a key question would be if the heart involves thought. I'm getting the impression that you don't believe the heart involves thought, but that thought is relegated to the mind alone. Am I understanding you correctly? In this case, you would disagree with the idea that the heart is where a man does his deepest thinking.

You would also disagree that it is the seat of the thoughts, but how about the rest of the Strong's definition. That is, taking out "thoughts," would you agree with the idea that the "heart" is the seat of the passions, desires, appetites, affections, purposes, endeavours?

I'm not arguing anything here. I'm just wanting to get a good handle on your thought, so we can talk apples to apples, and I can respond to your viewpoint as you actually hold it.

[John317]

in other words, we dont know what Jesus exact words were in anything that is recorded.

Originally Posted By: John3:17

All we have are the Gospels and they're all we need as far as Jesus' words are concerned. Jesus' Spirit inspired the Gospels, so it is the same thing as having Jesus's very words.

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

What do you mean by, "it is the same thing"?

The Gospels (and other NT books) as we have them are the authority and foundation of our faith and doctrine. The authority is not what some people might conjecture that Jesus "actually said."

[Twilight]

Thanks for posting that Mark. I agree that would have been a good place to start.

You say this can all be substantiated from Scripture. I know this is work, but I think it would be worthwhile. Could you repost what you wrote, and interject the Scriptures you see supporting the points you are making?

I will give a basic outline, but this is years worth of study for me, so I can only give general pointers... :-)

[Twilight]

I have outlined a basic few texts here Pnat:

-------------------------

This is my understanding.

God has created us with a "mind and heart system".

Quote:

Hbr 8:10 For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

1Sa 2:35 And I will raise me up a faithful priest, [that] shall do according to [that] which [is] in mine heart and in my mind: and I will build him a sure house; and he shall walk before mine anointed for ever.

1Ch 28:9 And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.

Dan 5:20 But when his heart was lifted up, and his mind hardened in pride, he was deposed from his kingly throne, and they took his glory from him:

Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

The mind is the seat of the thoughts.

Quote:

Eze 38:10 Thus saith the Lord GOD; It shall also come to pass, [that] at the same time shall things come into thy mind, and thou shalt think an evil thought:

The heart is the seat of the basic "laws" that govern our nature (we could call these desires, inclinations and emotions).

Quote:

Jer 30:24 The fierce anger of the LORD shall not return, until he have done [it], and until he have performed the intents of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it.

Psa 10:3 For the wicked boasteth of his heart's desire, and blesseth the covetous, [whom] the LORD abhorreth.

Now the bible will often refer to the system of the "heart and mind" as the "heart", this has to be borne in mind.

The mind is the gateway to the heart.

Everything in the heart before conversion is a result of inheritance or the result of programming, this is the stony heart.

Quote:

Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

An unconverted heart is linked to the "flesh", in other words it is joined to the carnal nature.

The flesh and heart in the unconverted man are so intertwined as to be completely dominant over the mind.

Now the heart, sends data to the mind at what you would call a "subconcious level".

This data is so powerful, that whatever is in the heart, directs the mind.

Quote:

Mat 12:35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.

Mat 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

At times the bible talks about the system of "heart and mind" and calls it the "heart" as mentioned above.

At other times, it specifies between the "heart" and the "mind" to show the difference between the thoughts and feelings.

Now it gets interesting.

The Holy Spirit takes up residence in the "Temple" of man, the "Body" of man.

Quote:

1Cr 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

But specifically in the "heart" of man.

Quote:

2Cr 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

Eph 3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,

2Cr 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to [give] the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Rom 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

Now the Holy Spirit starts on the work of seperating the heart from the "flesh", which the bible calls circumcision.

Quote:

Rom 2:29 But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God.

Act 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers [did], so [do] ye.

God wants sole dominion of the heart, to do that, He has to cut the flesh's influence away from the heart.

This means a literal change in the neural network of the mind AND heart (which science is starting to discover that the heart has a neural network).

God literally "rewrites" the wiring of the heart, physically, as He does with the mind.

How?

By placing His Laws there, as we receive them by faith, the Holy Spirit imprints them on the heart.

Quote:

Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

Jer 31:33 But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

This is what we call "sanctification".

This is "Christ formed within".

Quote:

Gal 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

This is when we personally receive the "character of Christ", because we have the thoughts and feelings of Christ.

Which comes because we have been changed into His likeness internally.

Another aspect of this, is that the Holy Spirit is leading us from within.

Quote:

Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Once we know He dwells in the heart, we start to listen to our heart for His instruction.

Quote:

Psa 4:4 Stand in awe, and sin not: commune with your own heart upon your bed, and be still. Selah.

We learn that God comes into our heart and sets up His "most Holy Place" there.

There we can commune with God.

The teachings on the "tabernacle, temple, secret of His presence" all point to this throughout the scriptures (as well as their heavenly meaning).

Learning to do this, is paramount for a close walk with God, we must listen and we must know where to listen.

It also aids us, when the enemy tempts us.

When the enemy tempts the converted believer, he always come through the mind.

He attempts to trick us into believing the old man is alive (the flesh), that it has not been circumcised, and then through lack of faith, the enemy gains control of our heart through our mind.

So when temptation comes, it always comes in the realm of the mind but satan is after the "heart", the throne of God.

But when the Holy Spirit leads, He leads in our hearts which "registers" often in the mind (our mind can listen to the hearts messages).

The Holy Spirit communes with the heart through the nerve endings, so His presence in the heart region is the means of communication with the heart.

He also communes with us through our minds, but the experience of communion of the Holy Spirit in the heart is reserved for those that are born again.

I think that pretty much covers it.

There is nothing here that cannot be founded on scripture.

But the argument against it is always really the same one.

"The heart is just a pump", which is basically a belief system built on a 20th century reliance on psychology, which many Adventists have mistakenly used to interpret the Bible and SOP.

The heart is not just a pump, the heart is an integral part to our "inner man" and stores our emotions, feeling and desires.

As the bible teaches.

Of course, I expect to be stoned as a heretic for presenting such a view, but that I do not mind.

It is the truth as far as I can discern, the only arguments against it often being non-biblical "science" arguments.

It is also taught in the sanctuary service amongst other places.

[Twilight]

You wrote:

Quote:

The mind is the seat of the thoughts.

The heart is the seat of the basic "laws" that govern our nature (we could call these desires, inclinations and emotions).

A. Graham Maxwell spoke of the "heart" being where a man does his deepest thinking. I couldn't find anything written online to quote, but I recall him saying something like this, and this definition sort of stuck with me.

So I guess a key question would be if the heart involves thought. I'm getting the impression that you don't believe the heart involves thought, but that thought is relegated to the mind alone. Am I understanding you correctly? In this case, you would disagree with the idea that the heart is where a man does his deepest thinking.

You would also disagree that it is the seat of the thoughts, but how about the rest of the Strong's definition. That is, taking out "thoughts," would you agree with the idea that the "heart" is the seat of the passions, desires, appetites, affections, purposes, endeavours?

The passions, desires appetites, affections, purposes are all the domain of the "heart".

They are a type of thought, but almost primeval (hate to use that word - for want of a better one), very basic, but very powerful.

But not the "same" as the thoughts of the mind in complexity.

It is these "primeval thoughts" that drive the intellect, that power it, control it, and often overcome it.

But at the same time it is through the gateway of the intellect that these "primeval thoughts" can be changed and often new types of thought come in through that gateway.

The mind gives the heart permission to change in other words.

But what is in the heart drives the mind.

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

You make a good case but I'm wondering if it is the literal heart.

One of my wife's best friends has a daughter who received a heart-transplant when she was a baby. So she of course has someone else's heart. How does that affect the spiritual situation, according to your view?

Wouldn't it be quite different if we were talking about a brain transplant? That seems pretty obvious. If a brain were transplanted, we would literally have a different person inside a different body since the brain contains all of our thoughts and memories and seems to be the place where all our decisions are made.

However, when we transplant a heart, are we changing the person?

Or let's take the transplanting of a monkey's heart or a pig's heart into a human (which happens). Does that make the person take on any of the characteristics of a pig or monkey?

And finally, if I have to receive a heart transplant, should I be concerned whether the doner is a dedicated Christian or not? Or say the doner was a serial murderer, could it make any difference in my relationship and walk with Christ?

I haven't read all of the thread before writing, so I'm not sure if you've already dealt with these ideas or questions. :-)

Some people who have heart transplants have been reported to receive the "desires" in some degrees of the donor's, although it hasn't been noted in all instances for some reason.

I am led to believe that the only reason the heart can be transplanted, is because it has its own neural network that allows it to "govern itself", but I wouldn't want to be quoted on that, just a memory from when I looked into this many moons ago.

As to receiving a heart transplant, the heart and mind are one system, the mind, I would imagine, would bring the heart into line over time, but as I have never had that experience, it is only wild conjecture.

[pnattmbtc]

The passions, desires appetites, affections, purposes are all the domain of the "heart".

They are a type of thought, but almost primeval (hate to use that word - for want of a better one), very basic, but very powerful.

But not the "same" as the thoughts of the mind in complexity.

It is these "primeval thoughts" that drive the intellect, that power it, control it, and often overcome it.

But at the same time it is through the gateway of the intellect that these "primeval thoughts" can be changed and often new types of thought come in through that gateway.

The mind gives the heart permission to change in other words.

But what is in the heart drives the mind.

[pnattmbtc]

Thanks a lot, Mark! That helps a lot (I'm responding to the post with the Scripture texts added).

I've been quite busy, so slow to respond, but appreciate all the work you put into this, and will definitely look at it.

[Twilight]

I would say that the "flesh" is the body, not the heart Pnat.

That the "flesh" is where "sin" dwells, or "selfishness".

A carnal individual will have the flesh and heart so closely combined, that they will act out of both.

When God comes in, He starts to circumcise the heart from the flesh.

The post you posted above, from Ellen White, I would say is dealing with the flesh.

My terms may be confusing at times, but I believe the desires and inclinations are of the heart in the born again believer.

Let me know how you get on with the texts.

There is no rush, I will pick up the mail when you have time to respond.

God bless,

Mark :-)