The understanding of Heart and Mind during Apostolic times.

[pnattmbtc]

Now the bible will often refer to the system of the "heart and mind" as the "heart", this has to be borne in mind.

The mind is the gateway to the heart.

Everything in the heart before conversion is a result of inheritance or the result of programming, this is the stony heart....

An unconverted heart is linked to the "flesh", in other words it is joined to the carnal nature.

The flesh and heart in the unconverted man are so intertwined as to be completely dominant over the mind.

Now the heart, sends data to the mind at what you would call a "subconcious level".

This data is so powerful, that whatever is in the heart, directs the mind.

Conversion doesn't occur in a moment, but is a process. The Holy Spirit woos, and one begins to respond. Information is presented to the prospect, and a decision may be made to turn one's life over to Jesus Christ, at which point one is converted.

Now if the heart and flesh were completely dominant over the mind, no one could be converted, unless we took the Calvinistic position of Irresistible Grace. This is because as soon as the Holy Spirit tried to present information to the prospect's mind, the flesh and heart of the unconverted man, which completely dominates his mind, would not prevent the consideration of that information.

I hope I've explained the dilemma here clearly enough. You see the problem I'm getting at?

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Now the bible will often refer to the system of the "heart and mind" as the "heart", this has to be borne in mind.

The mind is the gateway to the heart.

Everything in the heart before conversion is a result of inheritance or the result of programming, this is the stony heart....

An unconverted heart is linked to the "flesh", in other words it is joined to the carnal nature.

The flesh and heart in the unconverted man are so intertwined as to be completely dominant over the mind.

Now the heart, sends data to the mind at what you would call a "subconcious level".

This data is so powerful, that whatever is in the heart, directs the mind.

Conversion doesn't occur in a moment, but is a process. The Holy Spirit woos, and one begins to respond. Information is presented to the prospect, and a decision may be made to turn one's life over to Jesus Christ, at which point one is converted.

Now if the heart and flesh were completely dominant over the mind, no one could be converted, unless we took the Calvinistic position of Irresistible Grace. This is because as soon as the Holy Spirit tried to present information to the prospect's mind, the flesh and heart of the unconverted man, which completely dominates his mind, would not prevent the consideration of that information.

I hope I've explained the dilemma here clearly enough. You see the problem I'm getting at?

God has left something in every man that can respond to Him, that is for sure, that the Holy Spirit works with.

Satan did not have it completely his own way, hope that clarifies the point a bit.

It was a general point, rather than a specific point.

I hope this clarification helps.

[pnattmbtc]

God has left something in every man that can respond to Him, that is for sure, that the Holy Spirit works with.

Satan did not have it completely his own way, hope that clarifies the point a bit.

It was a general point, rather than a specific point.

I hope this clarification helps.

Yes, that helps.

[Twilight]

It also explains why God allows Satan to still have access to us after we are born again...

It has to go both ways.

[pnattmbtc]

God wants sole dominion of the heart, to do that, He has to cut the flesh's influence away from the heart.

This means a literal change in the neural network of the mind AND heart (which science is starting to discover that the heart has a neural network).

God literally "rewrites" the wiring of the heart, physically, as He does with the mind.

How?

By placing His Laws there, as we receive them by faith, the Holy Spirit imprints them on the heart.

This looks to be talking about conversion. When I think of conversion, what comes to mind is the joy of forgiveness/reconciliation, and a desire to do God's will. There's a change that occurs in the heart/mind which involves a desire to do X instead of Y, where X are things that would make Christ happy, and Y are things that would make self happy. This is roughly how I think of this.

Going back to the definition of the heart, A. G. Maxwell spoke of it being where a man does his deepest thinking. That made an impression on my, and is how I've thought of it since he said that. I can understand the heart, as the seat of the emotions/desires etc. having an impact on the mind (although I perceive it to be a part of the mind, as the will is a part of the mind, even though we can speak of "mind" and "will" separately, just like we can for "heart" and "mind."), but wonder how this takes place. You suggest it's by a literal rewriting of the heart physically, as He does with the mind. I don't think the chest muscle heart is the center of our emotions/desires etc., so rewiring things there doesn't seem to me like it would accomplish much. Actually, the whole concept even applied to the mind doesn't strike me as quite correct, although I think it's very interesting.

If it were true, I would think that it should be demonstrable scientifically. That is, if there is a literal change in the neural network, then that should be observable, however neural networks are tracked. I don't think such a change would be noticed.

However, I'm not at all certain about this. God has to make the changes in us somehow, and your suggestion seems plausible to me. That is, somehow we are changed; our thoughts and desires change. It just doesn't strike me as quite "right," if you know what I mean.

If you have anything to substantiate this idea, I'd be interested in seeing it. Of course, there's nothing in Scripture which speaks of "neural networks," so I'm not looking for that, but you could explain why it is you think that this is the mechanism at work.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

God wants sole dominion of the heart, to do that, He has to cut the flesh's influence away from the heart.

This means a literal change in the neural network of the mind AND heart (which science is starting to discover that the heart has a neural network).

God literally "rewrites" the wiring of the heart, physically, as He does with the mind.

How?

By placing His Laws there, as we receive them by faith, the Holy Spirit imprints them on the heart.

This looks to be talking about conversion. When I think of conversion, what comes to mind is the joy of forgiveness/reconciliation, and a desire to do God's will. There's a change that occurs in the heart/mind which involves a desire to do X instead of Y, where X are things that would make Christ happy, and Y are things that would make self happy. This is roughly how I think of this.

Going back to the definition of the heart, A. G. Maxwell spoke of it being where a man does his deepest thinking. That made an impression on my, and is how I've thought of it since he said that. I can understand the heart, as the seat of the emotions/desires etc. having an impact on the mind (although I perceive it to be a part of the mind, as the will is a part of the mind, even though we can speak of "mind" and "will" separately, just like we can for "heart" and "mind."), but wonder how this takes place. You suggest it's by a literal rewriting of the heart physically, as He does with the mind. I don't think the chest muscle heart is the center of our emotions/desires etc., so rewiring things there doesn't seem to me like it would accomplish much. Actually, the whole concept even applied to the mind doesn't strike me as quite correct, although I think it's very interesting.

If it were true, I would think that it should be demonstrable scientifically. That is, if there is a literal change in the neural network, then that should be observable, however neural networks are tracked. I don't think such a change would be noticed.

However, I'm not at all certain about this. God has to make the changes in us somehow, and your suggestion seems plausible to me. That is, somehow we are changed; our thoughts and desires change. It just doesn't strike me as quite "right," if you know what I mean.

If you have anything to substantiate this idea, I'd be interested in seeing it. Of course, there's nothing in Scripture which speaks of "neural networks," so I'm not looking for that, but you could explain why it is you think that this is the mechanism at work.

Consider this thought Pnat.

We think that "mind includes heart", but we do not get this from scripture, we get this from a 20th Century Belief System.

Scripture always states the opposite way around "heart includes mind".

So when the scripture talks of the system, it does not describe it as the system of the "mind".

But as the system of the "heart".

Why?

Because the "laws" that govern our very being are written in the heart.

The most basic "primal" part of our being, is the "laws" that govern us at our most basic level.

The "heart" drives these to the "mind" which takes these laws and applies them on a daily basis.

The "mind" can also change those laws - so it is not a simple one way system - through co-operation with God.

But if we understand that the most basic laws that govern our being are written on our hearts, and that from these, the choices we make are derived, the concept begins to make sense.

Notice that God writes His Law on our "hearts" and "minds".

Change a mans "heart" and you change his "mind".

Change a mans "mind" does not necessarily mean you will change his "heart".

This is the reason we have a Laodicean church in many ways.

People have had their "minds" changed, but the "heart" has not been changed.

They "consent" to truth, but they do not have "truth" in them.

So what law is in the heart before God changes it?

The law of "sin", the law of "selfishness".

At our most basic level we are "selfish" because the most basic laws of our "system", written on our hearts are "selfish".

Then God writes the Law of love in our hearts, His Love.

Now we operate out of that system of "laws" or "programme" (to use a computer term).

Consider the heart like the "hard drive" and the mind like the "processor".

The processor can only access the hard drive and what is on the hard drive.

But once that information is there, the processor can use that information.

Intelligently.

But it cannot use something that is not on the hard drive.

This understanding does not diminish the importance of the mind and will, but it does bring the scripture into a coherent whole that does not require us to retranslate the word "heart" to mean "mind".

It also teaches us about the Leading of the Holy Spirit.

But I will explore that more with you later if you are interested.

I appreciate your patience in attempting to understand my point of view.

Mark :-)

[pnattmbtc]

Consider this thought Pnat.

We think that "mind includes heart", but we do not get this from scripture, we get this from a 20th Century Belief System.

[Twilight]

Take some time to consider my response Pnat.

And see if it fits the biblical description.

Imagine being on a desert island with no knowledge of 20th century science.

Then run through the points I am making and the Biblical passages and see what you come up with.

I know it is hard to disconnect from the ideas we have about the physiology of the body from the last century, which is why I am suggesting this.

Give it a couple of days and let me know what you think.

Mark :-)

[pnattmbtc]

Does the physiology matter? That is, say I believed the kidneys were the seat of my emotions, instead of this being an activity of the brain. Other than my being ignorant of a physiological detail, does this matter?

I'd appreciate if you would respond to what I wrote. For example:

Quote:

What this sounds like to me is something like the following:

1.We have deep belief systems, which govern our decisions and thoughts, even though this may happen unconsciously.

2.We have the ability to change these deep belief systems.

3.This, in turn, impacts our decisions and thoughts going forward.

What did you think of this part? Also if you find anything else interesting to respond to, I would like that.

[Twilight]

Does the physiology matter? That is, say I believed the kidneys were the seat of my emotions, instead of this being an activity of the brain. Other than my being ignorant of a physiological detail, does this matter?

I'd appreciate if you would respond to what I wrote. For example:

Quote:

What this sounds like to me is something like the following:

1.We have deep belief systems, which govern our decisions and thoughts, even though this may happen unconsciously.

2.We have the ability to change these deep belief systems.

3.This, in turn, impacts our decisions and thoughts going forward.

What did you think of this part? Also if you find anything else interesting to respond to, I would like that.

Absolutely, full agreement with the principles above.

Biblical psychology, which is perfect, directly links the physiology of the body, to these key areas of the body for a specific reason.

We have two options here.

It is all just a "figure of speech", or it is something much deeper and much more profound.

The value of linking it the physiology benefits in many ways.

It helps us identify different "motions" with in us, so to speak.

If the "flesh" is our "body" we would expect that to express itself in a very physical way.

That happens.

If the heart is the seat of the Laws that govern us, then we would expect that to express itself in a physical way.

That happens.

If the mind is the seat of the thoughts and reason, then we would be able to discern that.

That happens.

When this simple physiology is tied to the psychology, we have a wonderful system to teach from and to understand ourselves with.

And it is very simple.

But we also go further, when we start to talk about the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, but here I am just dealing with our one aspect at the moment.

Once you understand where I am coming from, which I think you are now doing, I would like to share that with you as well.

Are there any other points you would like me specifically to respond to?

Mark :-)

[pnattmbtc]

p:What this sounds like to me is something like the following:

1.We have deep belief systems, which govern our decisions and thoughts, even though this may happen unconsciously.

2.We have the ability to change these deep belief systems.

3.This, in turn, impacts our decisions and thoughts going forward.

What did you think of this part? Also if you find anything else interesting to respond to, I would like that.

T:Absolutely, full agreement with the principles above.

I'm going to try a different approach. Usually we've been talking about things we disagree, but let's try something it looks like we have some agreement on.

You say you agree fully with the principles above. These principles, it seems to me, involve mental activity. That is, our deep belief systems. It may not always be conscious mental activity (indeed, usually not), but still mental activity nevertheless. What spurns it to the conscious level, it seems to me, may be some sort of crisis that causes us to really ponder something, like a moral decision. Or something can challenge our paradigm, and cause us to really think through things.

Have you read Les Miserable? There's a good example in that if you have. The guy who kept chasing the hero couldn't take the kindness with which the hero treated him. It caused a sort of cognitive dissonance which he resolved by killing himself (not the best choice).

Actually, I'm glad I thought of this (cognitive dissonance), because I think that's really hitting the nail on the head. Something happens which causes us to think, "Hey, I've to two things which aren't agreeing with one another. How do I resolve this?" And that's how paradigms/deep belief systems change.

For example, the Holy Spirit presents Jesus Christ, who died for me. A claim is being made that I should repent and become a follower, to believe in God. What do I do with this? Wow! This is challenging my belief system, my paradigm. How I respond (especially if positively) may drastically impact my belief system, my paradigm.

This is big example, but there's all sorts of smaller ones happening, all throughout our life.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

p:What this sounds like to me is something like the following:

1.We have deep belief systems, which govern our decisions and thoughts, even though this may happen unconsciously.

2.We have the ability to change these deep belief systems.

3.This, in turn, impacts our decisions and thoughts going forward.

What did you think of this part? Also if you find anything else interesting to respond to, I would like that.

T:Absolutely, full agreement with the principles above.

You say you agree fully with the principles above. These principles, it seems to me, involve mental activity. That is, our deep belief systems. It may not always be conscious mental activity (indeed, usually not), but still mental activity nevertheless. What spurns it to the conscious level, it seems to me, may be some sort of crisis that causes us to really ponder something, like a moral decision. Or something can challenge our paradigm, and cause us to really think through things.

This is the essential issue I think:

Does the biblical use of physiology in relation to Christian psychology actual represent the physical or is an abstract object lesson?

That is the key.

If I interpret the bible with the physiology and psychology connected, I find everything fits.

But if I interpret the bible with the physiology as a "turn of speech", I find that starts to break down after a little while.

Whichever method is used, it has to answer two things in my view.

1. It has to explain the way human psychology works.

2. It has to explain how the Holy Spirit interacts with us.

I reject the "turn of speech" approach as whilst it can be used to describe human psychology, it fails when applied to the literal indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

So it does not meet both tests.

Whereas I have found the first one does.

So at this point, it is clear that we agree that both methods would fit the human psychology issues, so it really then behoves us to consider which option would explain how the Holy Spirit interacts with us.

[pnattmbtc]

How does this explain the example I gave? That is, you agreed with this:

Quote:

1.We have deep belief systems, which govern our decisions and thoughts, even though this may happen unconsciously.

2.We have the ability to change these deep belief systems.

3.This, in turn, impacts our decisions and thoughts going forward.

You said you agreed fully with this. Ok, so I went with this, and tried to think through what causes this to happen. It seems to me that it's cognitive dissonance which causes this to happen, where what is normally unconscious becomes conscious, and we're constrained to make some sort of moral choice which has an impact on our deep belief system. Do you agree with this?

I gave the example of conversion.

Here's another example. Let's say I have some prejudicial belief, I believe member of race X are (something bad). I then meet a person of that race who isn't like this. I have to re-evaluate my thinking. This impacts my deep belief system.

[pnattmbtc]

Something else I wanted to mention, but wanted to do so on a different post, so we can keep two conversations going, if you're interested. Are you familiar with Biblical cosmology? If so, what are your thoughts on this? That is, we don't view cosmology the way the ancients did, which is reflected in the Biblical language. Do you believe the Bible writers were correct, and science is wrong?

[Twilight]

How does this explain the example I gave? That is, you agreed with this:

Quote:

1.We have deep belief systems, which govern our decisions and thoughts, even though this may happen unconsciously.

2.We have the ability to change these deep belief systems.

3.This, in turn, impacts our decisions and thoughts going forward.

You said you agreed fully with this. Ok, so I went with this, and tried to think through what causes this to happen. It seems to me that it's cognitive dissonance which causes this to happen, where what is normally unconscious becomes conscious, and we're constrained to make some sort of moral choice which has an impact on our deep belief system. Do you agree with this?

I gave the example of conversion.

Here's another example. Let's say I have some prejudicial belief, I believe member of race X are (something bad). I then meet a person of that race who isn't like this. I have to re-evaluate my thinking. This impacts my deep belief system.

I wonder if the mind can actually change the heart sometimes Pnat.

Without the Holy Spirit's help.

But that probably doesn't help your question... :-)

[Twilight]

Something else I wanted to mention, but wanted to do so on a different post, so we can keep two conversations going, if you're interested. Are you familiar with Biblical cosmology? If so, what are your thoughts on this? That is, we don't view cosmology the way the ancients did, which is reflected in the Biblical language. Do you believe the Bible writers were correct, and science is wrong?

I have never studied it, but do you think it will take this off topic?

If so, it would make sense to start a new thread.

Sounds interesting by the way. :-)

Mark

[pnattmbtc]

p:You said you agreed fully with this. Ok, so I went with this, and tried to think through what causes this to happen. It seems to me that it's cognitive dissonance which causes this to happen, where what is normally unconscious becomes conscious, and we're constrained to make some sort of moral choice which has an impact on our deep belief system. Do you agree with this?

I gave the example of conversion.

Here's another example. Let's say I have some prejudicial belief, I believe member of race X are (something bad). I then meet a person of that race who isn't like this. I have to re-evaluate my thinking. This impacts my deep belief system.

T:I wonder if the mind can actually change the heart sometimes Pnat.

[pnattmbtc]

p:Something else I wanted to mention, but wanted to do so on a different post, so we can keep two conversations going, if you're interested. Are you familiar with Biblical cosmology? If so, what are your thoughts on this? That is, we don't view cosmology the way the ancients did, which is reflected in the Biblical language. Do you believe the Bible writers were correct, and science is wrong?

T:I have never studied it, but do you think it will take this off topic?

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

p:You said you agreed fully with this. Ok, so I went with this, and tried to think through what causes this to happen. It seems to me that it's cognitive dissonance which causes this to happen, where what is normally unconscious becomes conscious, and we're constrained to make some sort of moral choice which has an impact on our deep belief system. Do you agree with this?

I gave the example of conversion.

Here's another example. Let's say I have some prejudicial belief, I believe member of race X are (something bad). I then meet a person of that race who isn't like this. I have to re-evaluate my thinking. This impacts my deep belief system.

T:I wonder if the mind can actually change the heart sometimes Pnat.

I didn't speak of the heart in this post.

Quote:

Without the Holy Spirit's help.

But that probably doesn't help your question... :-)

Yes, it doesn't. Please consider what I wrote, and answer my question, if you agree with what I wrote.

I answered with "heart" where you would probably place "subconscious" Pnat. :-)

My question really was, can we even change our "heart/subconscious" without Christ?

From its basic starting point.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

p:Something else I wanted to mention, but wanted to do so on a different post, so we can keep two conversations going, if you're interested. Are you familiar with Biblical cosmology? If so, what are your thoughts on this? That is, we don't view cosmology the way the ancients did, which is reflected in the Biblical language. Do you believe the Bible writers were correct, and science is wrong?

T:I have never studied it, but do you think it will take this off topic?

No, I don't think it's off topic, as it seems like the arguments are the same. That is, we don't have to go into detail regarding the subject itself, except to be able to make the basic point.

The ancients views the universe to be a cosmic egg. The night sky and the day sky were a dome, which rotated around, the day portion in the day time, and the night portion at night time. So imagine the earth fixed in space, with a come rotating around it, and that's the idea. There was no concept of an earth rotating around its axis, or revolving around the sun, or that the sun was the center of the solar system, or that there were billions of stars (actually, much more than that), or billions of galaxies. But now we know of such things. However, we don't throw the Bible away, nor consider that it is in any way lessened because we no longer hold to this view. We accept the scientific discoveries, and, in spite of that, that is much we can learn about spiritual truth with the Biblical cosmological model.

It seems to me we have the same scenario going with the physiological model. The ancients didn't understand the mind as well as we do today, and thought, for example, that the kidneys were the set of the emotions. We now know this is not the case. However, the fact that the physical location of emotional activity stems from the brain doesn't impact our ability to learn spiritual truth from the Bible, when it speaks of the Lord trying the reins, for example. We don't have to understand this to be speaking of the literal kidneys to understand what's being said.

Quote:

If so, it would make sense to start a new thread.

Sounds interesting by the way. :-)

It is interesting. It ties into prophecy quite a bit. Much of what is said is missed, because of not understanding how the Hebrews thought. There is a tie between Biblcial cosmology, the Exodus experience, the agricultural cycle, and prophecy.

What evidence do you have, that the biblical writers held this "egg" belief Pnat?

[Twilight]

I suspect this is going to go off topic, but as it is thee and me at the moment, we should able to cope with it I hope. :-)

[pnattmbtc]

T:I answered with "heart" where you would probably place "subconscious" Pnat. :-)

My question really was, can we even change our "heart/subconscious" without Christ?

From its basic starting point.

[pnattmbtc]

What evidence do you have, that the biblical writers held this "egg" belief Pnat?

I studied this at school. Under Dr. Waterhouse, at Andrews, if you know him.

Could probably find something online, if you're interested.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

T:I answered with "heart" where you would probably place "subconscious" Pnat. :-)

My question really was, can we even change our "heart/subconscious" without Christ?

From its basic starting point.

This isn't addressing my question. Here's what I wrote:

Quote:

p:You said you agreed fully with this. Ok, so I went with this, and tried to think through what causes this to happen. It seems to me that it's cognitive dissonance which causes this to happen, where what is normally unconscious becomes conscious, and we're constrained to make some sort of moral choice which has an impact on our deep belief system. Do you agree with this?

I gave the example of conversion.

Here's another example. Let's say I have some prejudicial belief, I believe member of race X are (something bad). I then meet a person of that race who isn't like this. I have to re-evaluate my thinking. This impacts my deep belief system.

Here's the question, in particular, I'm wanting you to address:

Quote:

It seems to me that it's cognitive dissonance which causes this to happen, where what is normally unconscious becomes conscious, and we're constrained to make some sort of moral choice which has an impact on our deep belief system. Do you agree with this?

Please explain what you mean by cognitive dissonance. :-)

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

What evidence do you have, that the biblical writers held this "egg" belief Pnat?

I studied this at school. Under Dr. Waterhouse, at Andrews, if you know him.

Could probably find something online, if you're interested.

I would like to see the argument. :-)