Are you going to heaven?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I probably won't be there, so those of you who have a problem with what I'm trying to tell you here on the forum, don't need to worry. You can be in heaven without me.

[Neil D]

Ooooh puleeeze....You will be there...quit selling Jesus short....

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I'm not selling Jesus short.

I just recognize that people are generally happier when I'm not around. I think I step on too many toes, though I don't mean to hurt anyone.

[SivartM]

I step on people's toes a lot too. Don't think that nobody wants you around! Even if I don't agree with everything you say, I like to hear what you have to say!

[Neil D]

Pam,

Silvart is right...I may not agree with everything you say, but my life will be less if you are not there....

And you are just rebellious enough with me that I suspect that if I were to agree with you that you might just defy me....

So what if I am a curmugon... I've told you before...God don't make no junk....You are a blessing and I wish you would not listen to that bad person with the horns and tail at your side...

There are days that we just donm't make our usual standard...So What...be the best you can be and let God take the rest....

And just to let you know, I am a beeeeaaautiful curmugon....even if I do say so myself....

BTW, loved the lawn chair drill....cute...

[teresaq]

rudywoofs, in reading your post i thought of myself and issues ive had. im blunt and too direct many times without realizing how it will come across.

and sensitive...

it can make life quite difficult.

even tho im working on my end, there are those who just are what they are and it doesnt much matter what i say or do, or how i say or do it if i dont agree with them.

seeking to know the difference keeps me in prayer.

[abelisle]

As of this moment - no.

[Bravus]

Heaven is of infinite size... ;-)

[Guest]

Heaven is of infinite size... ;-)

No it's not. The whole universe is not heaven...

[Bravus]

Heaven contains the universe (and potentially other universes), not the other way around.

[John317]

There are three heavens in the Bible, and the heaven which the Bible refers to as the dwelling place of God, where His sanctuary is, is not all the universe.

There was war in heaven and the devil and his angels were thrown down from heaven. See Rev. 12. They didn't leave the universe. They were thrown out of heaven and down onto this earth. This earth is not in heaven but it is a part of the universe.

Could you explain what you mean when you say heaven contains the universe, and show Bible examples?

What heaven are you referring to?

[Bravus]

God is infinite. God lives in heaven. Therefore heaven is infinite. QED.

I regard heaven as being a different dimension or set of dimensions. The war in heaven happened there, and the evil angels were thrown 'down' into this universe. I do not regard heaven as being a concrete place in this universe (again, else how does an infinite God who fills the entire universe reside in it?)

[John317]

That would depend on what we mean by "fill all the universe".

Where do you believe the heavenly sanctuary is? Do you understand it to be a literal, real place?

I take the judgment scene in Daniel 7 as being a reliable description of a real place in heaven. In other words, we're talking about real beings who are just as literal and real as you and I are. God the Father and Christ are real persons and they are doing real, literal things in heaven. There's an actual judgment going on in heaven where real beings are making real decisions that will have eternal consequences.

How do you see it?

[Bravus]

Real does not mean material... I like C S Lewis' statement that it is the eternal that is real and concrete and us that are temporal and filmy and ephemeral.

Anyway... please note that I'm largely being playful here rather than trying to establish a strong theological position.

An alternative to my initial comment about heaven being infinite is just that the universe is very large indeed and I don't believe we'll be confined to heaven, even if heaven is material. (And if heaven *is* material, I doubt it will be cramped.)

So, in response to rudywoofs' original point, there'll be plenty of places to find likeminded folk in heaven... and to avoid other folk.

It's a sobering thought, though, isn't it - spending eternity with one another.

One consolation for me (and maybe for you, Pam), is that Matthew 25 suggests to me that many who are certain they're 'in' aren't, and vice versa...

[Bravus]

J317, do you believe God fills the entire universe? 'Omnipresent' is the term...

[John317]

When I see your posts, I sometimes wonder if you're talking to me or to someone else. Your posts never show that you're replying to mine.

Jesus had a real, physical body, didn't he? Isn't Christ still a man? I'm going by the way the Gospels and the book of Acts describe Christ after the resurrection. Then you have the book of Hebrews speaking of Him as a human being. According to the Bible Christ will always be the God-man, a real human being, our elder Brother.

[Bravus]

I always just do the Quick Reply thing and let the forum sort out the order. It'd be nice if it showed my posts as responding to the ones immediately above them (I use the in-line, not the threaded view of the forum). Not sure what is a better way to communicate: my posts are usually to the whole thread anyway but most closely related to the most recent post...

[John317]

SDAs don't believe that the Father is everywhere at once, nor do we believe that Christ is personally omnipresent. Christ and the Father are in heaven, where God's throne is.

The Father and the Son are able to be wherever they want to be through the Holy Spirit, who does not have a form. God the Father and Christ have a body and a form. Christ's is a glorified human being who is also fully God. He will never again be in the form of God.

Dr. Kellogg had the idea that God is everywhere at once, even in our water and food and our boots. Literaly.

That is not what the Bible teaches, though. Kellogg's ideas were actually very close to being pantheistic.

[Bravus]

Gah, same problem with who it follows up to: Stan?!

Yes, I believe Jesus is still human (to the same extent he ever was, i.e. fully but also fully divine) and is therefore material and bound in time and space. He presumably has a physical location somewhere were he lives. It might be in this universe or another one: God transcends universes and can easily transport him here for the Second Coming, and us back.

There's no conclusive evidence, as far as I know, for whether we will be material in heaven or not. Maybe we'll be like the angels (as some texts suggest): and if they're all around us all the time but not detectable then clearly they aren't material.

[John317]

I don't think there's any doubt that we will be physical beings. God made us physical beings to begin with and I don't believe the Bible teaches that God's plan in that sense has changed.

What about the Bible's teaching that we will live on the earth after the 1000 years? Doesn't that show that we will be physical and not spirits?

Of course there are many things about this that we can't possibly understand or know, such as whether we will have the same kind of digestive tracks, etc.

[Neil D]

The bible says that at the end of the 1000 years, the universe will be remade....what's to prevent us from being remade then also?

The difference is that we will have far more confidence/trust in God than we have now....

[John317]

What are you basing your statement or belief on?

The Scripture are clear that the saved receive their immortal, perfect bodies at the resurrection, not at the end of the 1000 years. The Bible and Ellen White say that the earth is remade, not that the saved are remade.

Do perfect, immortal bodies need to be remade after 1000 years?

Your thoughts?

[phkrause]

We receive our immortal, perfect bodies at the resurrection, not at the end of the 1000 years. The Bible and Ellen White say that the earth is remade, not that the saved are remade.

That is what I understand also.

[Woody]

Pam. You ask "Are you going to heaven".

My answer is: Yes I plan to be going to heaven.

Thanks for the question.

[John317]

When you speak of God, I assume you mean God the Father, because of course Jesus Christ is God, and so is the Holy Spirit.

Do you believe it is possible to have a real, literal body and not be seen by humans? In other words, is it possible for beings to be in differend dimensions and therefore for one to be unable to see the other?

As I understand it from the Bible and the Spirit of prophecy, God the Father has form that could be seen, but He is able to make Himself seen or not seen by humans.

For instance, when God appeared to Moses on the mountain, God referred to his hands and his back and his face. Now it's very possible that this God was the pre-incarnate Christ, but it is also possible that it was God the Father. And at the time we're speaking of, both the the pre-incarnate Christ and the Father were in the form of God. Therefore, in the case of what occurred at Sinai, it really doesn't matter whether it was Christ or the Father. It shows that God and Christ both at that time had a form that could be seen by human beings if God chose to allow them to.

When God said they were going to make mankind in their image, it also shows that there must be something similar between God and man's physical being as well as our moral and spiritual nature.

It's interesting that Ellen White says God showed her visions in which she saw Christ and God the Father on the throne in heaven. She actually only saw light where the Father was-- because she was told that if she were to see God's person, she would cease to exist--- but she indicated that Jesus told her that both he and the Father have a form and are persons. EW 54, 55.