Knowing Your Enemy: Satan's Attacks On SDAs

[John317]

Ok. So if what you say is true then who decides whether and when a person should give up their membership, and at what point?

I believe it's up to the individual to decide that.

No one, except the local congregation, should take it on themselves to tell someone to leave the church. We need to be working and praying to keep people with us in the church.

In some circumsances, I think it is also up to the person's local congregation if they see that the individual is causing harm to the church in the eyes of the public. The congregation should make sure it's done everything it possibly can do to restore the person to Christian fellowship, but if that proves unsuccessful, there are times when there is no choice but to disfellowship. But disfellowshiping people is for the ultimate purpose of spiritual restoration. It's intended to be like a wake-up call, as a warning of the dangerous position the person is in.

[John317]

It is very clear to me (maybe not to you or others who studied Greek) that the words he or she or it may just be called 'he' in Greek, same with the word for person or humans as they would both be simply called 'man'. Therefore, John 14's 'he' for the Holy Spirit could actually be a 'she'.

But that isn't how it works. "He" or "she" or "it" are not just called "he" in Greek. They are distinctly different words, just as they are in English, and it won't do to try and substitute one of those words for another. Would you like someone to say that it doesn't matter whether we call Dr. Rich a "she" or "it" or "he" and that the pronoun, "she," will do just fine in reference to you? I'm sure you would object, and rightly so.

How does it seem to you if someone says, "It is very clear to me (maybe not to you or others who studied the law) that larceny refers to stealing anything whether of lawful value or not. It is really irrelevant whether it costs fifty dollars or more. Attorneys and judges are confused about it, but I know better."

What would you say to such a person? Wouldn't the thought cross your mind that this person doesn't know what he's talking about, and foolishly thinks he know better than someone who has spent years studying and practicing law?

Please notice that in John 16: 7,8, 13, the pronoun is "he," not "she."

Imagine that I say to a woman in English that someone is coming over to visit her. In communicating this, I say, "Jamie is coming over to see you today, and he will be here at 3PM."

What would you think if the woman says, "Oh, is she?"

Wouldn't I have a right to correct her and say, "No, I said 'he,' not 'she'"?

My point is simply that the difference between "he" and "she" is as clear in Greek as it is in English. There's no reason to be confused about this unless one wants to be.

[John317]

... the words he or she or it may just be called 'he' in Greek, same with the word for person or humans as they would both be simply called 'man'. Therefore, John 14's 'he' for the Holy Spirit could actually be a 'she'.

It's clear to me that you are desperate for the Holy Spirit to be a "she."

Why is it so important to you for the Holy Spirit to be a "woman" or a "wife"?

[Musicman1228]

Anarthrous - Without the article. In reference to a noun. Anarthrous nouns are generally translated in English with the indefinite article ("a, an"). However, some anarthrous nouns are qualitative and are often translated without an article.

Example:

Then I saw another beast rising out of the earth. It had two horns like a lamb and it spoke like a dragon. Rev.13:11.

In Greek there was no article in front of the word 'lamb' or 'dragon'. The translator chose the article in English to not only smooth out the sentence but also MODIFY the noun to his religious perspective. The text could just as easily and more appropriately have been translated as follows:

"Then I saw another beast rising out of the earth. It had two horns like THE lamb and it spoke like THE dragon."

Translated this way the word 'lamb would refer back to the last time the word was used in the prophecy, the 'lamb' would refer to Jesus Christ (Rev. 5:12).

The word 'Dragon' would refer back to the last time it was used in the prophecy and would refer to Satan (Rev.12:7-9). In this particular case the article 'a' indicates more of a generic lamb and non-specific dragon; the article 'the' specifies the one lamb and the one Dragon who fought Him.

If my language in the book confused you into thinking that I meant something other than this then I am truly sorry. If the book ever gets to a second printing I will change the language to better reflect the proper usage. Thanks for the heads up.

[Musicman1228]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

... the words he or she or it may just be called 'he' in Greek, same with the word for person or humans as they would both be simply called 'man'. Therefore, John 14's 'he' for the Holy Spirit could actually be a 'she'.

It's clear to me that you are desperate for the Holy Spirit to be a "she."

Why is it so important to you for the Holy Spirit to be a "woman" or a "wife"?

Without going into too much boring detail there are three separate words in Hebrew that mean 'female', 'woman', and 'wife'. This is the same for 'male', 'man' and 'husband'.

God said that He made 'man' or in this case 'mankind' in the generic sense after His image and likeness 'male' and 'female'. God does not use those same words in describing the 'man' and 'woman' who become 'husband' and 'wife' in Gen.2, indicating to me that the pair in the Garden were not the same as those outside of the Garden.

In Hebrew there are two words for spirit, one is 'ruwach', the next 'nshamah', and a third 'nephesh', meaning 'soul'. The two words for breath or spirit are (almost always) used in the feminine. A Woman is ALWAYS feminine, but does not alway have to be (and is not always) physically female, as would be a spirit.

If we are made in the image and likeness of God and we are created both male and female, which can result in us becoming 'men' and 'women', and ultimately 'husband' and 'wife' then is stands to reason that the God in who's image we are created would also have to have those same characteristics. Therefore, since God created marriage as the ultimate and most intimate relationship between a husband and wife then (again) it stands to reason that since God has both male/masculine/husband characteristics and female/woman/wife characteristics that the beings in the God head would represent those types of characteristics, and would be in the identical relationship through marriage as those that they created.

The woman in Gen.3:15 represents the mother of the offspring of God (just as the Serpent represents the father of the offspring of Satan). And we see in Rev. 12 a Woman that is in heaven and gives birth to the Son of God and the rest of Her offspring who are the spiritual siblings of their brother Jesus Christ, it seems to me logical that this 'Woman' would be the same being that gives birth to those who will be in the Kingdom of Heaven of which Jesus spoke in John 3:3, 5. That being is, of course, the Holy Spirit. Since Jesus is called the Son of God (again) it stands to reason that His parents would have to be married (as in husband and wife) in order for the Son to be legitimate and heir and co-regent of the Kingdom of Heaven with His Father. Therefore, the Woman of Rev.12 and Gen 3:15 MUST be the wife of God the Father, which reflects the ideal for the relationship that God (they) want for their created human beings.

[John317]

...As for picking and choosing what you want to believe is scripture like the GC has done for some of the fundamental beliefs, what I presented to you was some of the very last words from Jesus found in Revelation 22:11,12 and 16.

I don't know what you mean here, Dr. Rich. Can you give some examples of this?

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

As the last words of Jesus, I take them very seriously since they are the 'bottom line' of the whole issue on salvation. To me they say that everyone will be rewarded on what they do--or not.

Yes, people are judged and rewarded according to their works, but you misunderstand that to mean that people earn their salvation by their works. But that is not what the Bible is saying. Our works-- our lives-- demonstrate whether our faith is true or false. True faith always leads to good works, or to obedience to God's will.

But true faith or trust is itself a gift of God. None of us earn this gift.

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

They also say that Jesus as God was before David and before mankind and was the one who made mankind.

Sure, agreed.

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

I see nothing about being saved by grace or righteousness my faith.

Grace is simply a word for "gift." When you give gifts to people, do you give them because the person "earned" it? Or do you give it to them because you love them? "Grace" is God's favor shown to us because of His love for us. We can never earn His love. He is never obligated to show us His love. He loves us because of who He is, not because of who we are.

Do you really think that you are able earn heaven? If we go by what we have "earned" or by what we "deserve," we would all be left to perish eternally. I know I would be. That is really what I deserve if we just go by what we have earned by our lives. As Paul says, "The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Truer words were never spoken, Dr. Rich. I know you believe these words mean Paul is teaching that God's grace releases us from obedience to the law of God, but that is a complete misunderstanding of Paul's theology.

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

As for #22 of the SDA fundamental beliefs, what I wrote says it all. It is clear to me that those who belive this are the very same ones that pick and choose what they want from the words found in the bible. They pick some of Paul's writings but reject other words that Paul wrote. And please don't tell me "May it never be"!

Could you be specific? Where's the evidence of picking and choosing?

What words of Paul do you think I reject?

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

I am not blind to what X-SDA's have said and written and can be found on the net--and they do have many good points. Even Rondo pointed out this same problem, that SDA's choose to believe one verse, but reject another verse.

I'm sure you agree with anyone who says that Paul teaches against the Ten Commandments or who makes it appear Paul is contrary to the gospel of Christ.

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

Wise people will be able to pick this up and become discouraged. People who are sleeping and refuse to be honest with themselves is just what Satan wants from most Adventists.

You are right that Satan is out to attack & deceive SDAs and the SDA church. He will do anything to get us to forget or change the SDA mission and message. One way to do that is to bring in all kinds of false teachings such as that the Holy Spirit's work in Jerusalem at the day of Pentecost was actually of Satan.

Are you being honest with yourself about pages 122, 123 of the book, The Spirit of the Church? Is the masculine third person pronoun "he" or "She" in John 16?

[Dr. Rich]

First, I did not write the book called "The Spirit of The Church".

Second, you will never find where Jesus said that salvation is a gift without any conditions--thereby it could not be gift..would it! It is true that God is very gracious and long suffering and loves us unconditionally, but salvation is not unconditional.

A gift is something one gets without doing anything to earn it. Since salvation is only for the righteous, one MUST earn it by chosing to obey the commandments and the testimony of Jesus given to us by His eyewitnesses. And that--John--is exactly the last thing that Jesus said, that what we do will be rewarded.

Third, (SDA #22) you pick and choose what you want to believe just as most Adventists do. You choose to believe and probably obey what God told Israel through Moses as found in Leviticus 11 even though this was not the covenant known as the ten commandments. On the otherhand, you choose to not believe and reject what Paul wrote in 1Tim. 4:3-5, 1Cor. 8:7-8; 10:23-29, and Luke's Acts 10:15.

So please John, tell us which of these verses is a false teaching?

[John317]

Anarthrous - Without the article. In reference to a noun. Anarthrous nouns are generally translated in English with the indefinite article ("a, an"). However, some anarthrous nouns are qualitative and are often translated without an article.

OK, so you can see that it has nothing to do with the reading of "he," "she," or "it." Articles are definite or indefinite-- either "the" or "a." Greek has no letter for the indefinite article.

"He," "she" and "it" are not even Greek articles; they are pronouns.

Definite articles are for the purpose of identity. Without the article, the noun is used qualitatively. For example, in John 1: 1, the last phrase says, kai ho logos heen theos. Here the word theos is anarthrous, since it has no definite article. It is speaking of the quality of God rather than identifying God and the Logos as one and the same being. It is saying that what the God was, the Logos was.

If the word theos was preceded by a definite article, the sentence would mean that the Logos was the same being as the God that is referred to in the frist part of the sentence. It would then mean, "and God was the Word." But of course this would make no sense because then it would be saying the Logos was the same being as the God who the Logos was with.

[John317]

First, I did not write the book called "The Spirit of The Church".

Yes, MM actually did the writing. I didn't mean to give the impression I thought you wrote it. If I did, I apologize.

[John317]

..Second, you will never find where Jesus said that salvation is a gift without any conditions--thereby it could not be gift..would it! It is true that God is very gracious and long suffering and loves us unconditionally, but salvation is not unconditional.

A gift is something one gets without doing anything to earn it. Since salvation is only for the righteous, one MUST earn it by chosing to obey the commandments and the testimony of Jesus given to us by His eyewitnesses. And that--John--is exactly the last thing that Jesus said, that what we do will be rewarded.

SDAs have never taught salvation is unconditional. So you are exactly right that salvation has conditions attached to it, but that condition is not that we must earn our salvation. The only condition of salvation is having genuine faith/trust/confidence in Christ. Genuine faith and love will produce the fruits of good works and a life devoted to living righteously before God. The Bible compares it the the fruits of a tree that is planted deep in good ground. The tree doesn't have to work to produce the fruit. The tree will bring forth good fruit if it's a good tree and if it's watered and otherwise taken care of. We can apply the same principle to ourselves in relationship to Christ.

The Investigative Judgment is for the purpose of examining the records of people's lives to determine if their lives show that they have genuine faith in Christ.

We don't earn our salvation by obeying God, Dr. Rich. That would be like telling a child they must earn their parent's love or in order to have a home to live in. Or it would like telling a wife that she must do certain things to earn her husband's love and the right to live with him.

For us to work in order to earn heaven would be a completely selfish endeavor. It turns our motives inward in preoccupation with self instead of outward in love for others.

Yes, as I said before, people will be rewarded according to their works, but it will be works people have done because of their love for Christ and for their neighbor. It won't be works that people have done in order to manipulate God into giving them heaven. That would be the wrong motive and the wrong reason for doing what is right.

[Dr. Rich]

John, obeying what God says is not manipulation. As God told Israel what He would do IF they obeyed, so too is what God/Jesus told us in John 8:51 "Truly, truly, I say to you, IF ANYONE keeps My word he shall never see death (second death)"; and in John 14:23 "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him, and make Our abode with him." As for me, I totally trust in God and in what He said He will do IF we do our part--obey. I really don't need any faith at all, so are you telling me that I will be lost if I obey and trust in what God said?

Jesus also said "If you love me, keep my commandments. So tell me John, how many people who now call themseves Christians/Adventists actually keep all of the commandments?

[Musicman1228]

John, what do you make of these verses:

But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been carried out in God.” John 3:21.

“Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father. John 14:12.

Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me. John 14:23-24.

“‘I know your works. You have the reputation of being alive, but you are dead.   (2) Wake up, and strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your works complete in the sight of my God.  Rev.3:1-2.

“‘I know your works. Behold, I have set before you an open door, which no one is able to shut. I know that you have but little power, and yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name. Rev.3:8.

“‘I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were either cold or hot!  Rev. 3:15.

The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne. Rev.3:21.

[John317]

... in John 14:23 "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him, and make Our abode with him."

Notice here's the motive. It is not, "If anyone wants to earn salvation..." It is, "If anyone loves Me..."

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

As for me, I totally trust in God and in what He said He will do IF we do our part--obey. I really don't need any faith at all, so are you telling me that I will be lost if I obey and trust in what God said?

It's a contradiction to say you trust God but don't need any faith. That is the same as saying you trust God but don't need any trust. That wouldn't make sense, would it? Trust and faith are synonynyms. Faith and trust and confidence and firm belief are all the same thing.

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

Jesus also said "If you love me, keep my commandments.

That's it!! "IF YOU LOVE ME, KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS..." Again, Jesus did not say, "If you want to earn your salvation, you must keep my commandments..."

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

So tell me John, how many people who now call themseves Christians/Adventists actually keep all of the commandments?

I have no idea and that's not my business to know. Did Elijah know? Did God tell Elijah that He wanted people to know how many people were keeping all of God's commandments.

No, He didn't. Our responsibility is to keep our eyes on Christ and do what we know God has called us to do.

Robert also continually asked the same question: "How many are obeying Gods' commandments? Are you keeping all of God's commandments?"

We do know that God has His people on earth who keep all His commandments and we know that God has called each of us to obey Him. That's really all that's necessary for us to know.

[John317]

But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been carried out in God. John 3:21.

Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father. John 14:12.

Jesus answered him, If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me. John 14:23-24.

I know your works. You have the reputation of being alive, but you are dead.   (2) Wake up, and strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your works complete in the sight of my God.  Rev.3:1-2.

I know your works. Behold, I have set before you an open door, which no one is able to shut. I know that you have but little power, and yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name. Rev.3:8.

I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were either cold or hot!  Rev. 3:15.

The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne. Rev.3:21.

I'm very familiar with all those verses, and believe all of them, but which one do you beleives teaches that we earn our salvation by keeping the law or by our good works?

[John317]

John, obeying what God says is not manipulation....Jesus also said "If you love me, keep my commandments.

It is an attempt at manipulation if we are tying to obey and gain heaven without truly loving Christ, and this is what many people do.

Jesus said, "If you love me, you will keep my commandments." Many people try to keep the commandments without loving Christ completely. That is when the attempt to manipulate God enters the picture. We are telling God we can do it ourselves and that we are up to it all on our own. This is exactly what the ancient Children of Isreal did on the borders of the promised land. Their bodies all rotted in the hot desert sands.

[Musicman1228]

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been carried out in God. John 3:21.

Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father. John 14:12.

Jesus answered him, If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me. John 14:23-24.

I know your works. You have the reputation of being alive, but you are dead.   (2) Wake up, and strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your works complete in the sight of my God.  Rev.3:1-2.

I know your works. Behold, I have set before you an open door, which no one is able to shut. I know that you have but little power, and yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name. Rev.3:8.

I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were either cold or hot!  Rev. 3:15.

The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne. Rev.3:21.

I'm very familiar with all those verses, and believe all of them, but which one do you beleives teaches that we earn our salvation by keeping the law or by our good works?

Who do you believe teaches that salvation is a free gift that keeps on giving because of grace through faith even when you are disobedient to the will of God as expressed in the Covenant?

[John317]

Who do you believe teaches that salvation is a free gift that keeps on giving because of grace through faith even when you are disobedient to the will of God as expressed in the Covenant?

I understand completely your point here, MM. You're saying that Paul's gospel encourages people to think they can get to haeven while willfully and deliberately practicing sin against God. If I believed Paul taught this, I wouldn't accept what he says. It is true, though, that Paul wrote some things that people can twist and make it to appear that he teaches those things, but that is exactly what Peter said in 2 Peter 3: 15, 16.

You wrote earlier about God allowing people to believe what they want, and this is very true. I agree with you on this. But that also means that God didn't inspire the Bible to be written in such a way that people's freedom to reject the truth would be taken away. What I'm saying is that the Bible contains things on which people can hang their doubts and misconceptions if they want to do that. But on the other hand, if people thirst for God and His righteouesness and truly want to understand the truth, God's Spirit will guide us to that truth.

But getting back to the theology of Paul and the question of whether he teaches that we can be saved even as we willfully practice known sins -- there are many passages in Paul's letters that deny this.

Please look carefully at the following verses:

Romans 2: 1-11; Romans 6: 1-2, 15; Romans 8: 1-14; 1 Cor. 6: 9-11; 1 Cor. 7: 19; 9: 21; Gal. 5: 16-23; Col. 3: 1-17; 2 Thess. 2: 9-12.

There are posted below:

Quote:

Romans 2:1-11

Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things. [2] We know that the judgment of God rightly falls on those who do such things. [3] Do you suppose, O man—you who judge those who do such things and yet do them yourself—that you will escape the judgment of God? [4] Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? [5] But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed.

[6] He will render to each one according to his works: [7] to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; [8] but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. [9] There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, [10] but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. [11] For God shows no partiality.

Romans 6:1-2

What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? [2] By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?

Romans 6:15

What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!

Romans 8:1-14

There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. [2] For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. [3] For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, [4] in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. [5] For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. [6] To set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. [7] For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. [8] Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

[9] You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. [10] But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. [11] If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.

[12] So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. [13] For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. [14] For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

1 Cor. 6:9-11

Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, [10] nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. [11] And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

1 Cor. 7:19

For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but keeping the commandments of God.

1 Cor. 9:21

To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law.

Galatians 5:16-23

But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. [17] For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. [18] But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. [19] Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, [20] idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, [21] envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. [22] But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, [23] gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

Col. 3:1-17

If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. [2] Set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on earth. [3] For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. [4] When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.

[5] Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. [6] On account of these the wrath of God is coming. [7] In these you too once walked, when you were living in them. [8] But now you must put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and obscene talk from your mouth. [9] Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old self with its practices [10] and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator. [11] Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is all, and in all.

[12] Put on then, as God's chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassion, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience, [13] bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive. [14] And above all these put on love, which binds everything together in perfect harmony. [15] And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body. And be thankful. [16] Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God. [17] And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.

2 Thes. 2:9-17

The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, [10] and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. [11] Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, [12] in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

[13] But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. [14] To this he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. [15] So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.

[16] Now may our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God our Father, who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good hope through grace, [17] comfort your hearts and establish them in every good work and word.

I believe if you look carefully what Paul says in the above, you'll see that those things can't be reconciled with the idea that Paul taught lawlessness or that he was opposed to the law of God. I don't see anything in those passages that are opposed by the gospel of Jesus Christ.

[Musicman1228]

John,

We are in agreement on much of what you said. Yet Paul DOES speak out of both sides of his mouth, where he makes statements against the Law and then says, "May it never be" right after, thinking that absolves him of his duplicity. Does a positive statement for the Law negate a negative statement against it?

And yes there is a text in 2 Peter 3:15-16 that would seem to confirm your point of view, except for one minor detail-Peter could not possibly have written 2 Peter because he was already dead when it was written. So if you are willing to believe that the unknown author of 2 Peter (as with the unknown author of Hebrews) was inspired by God to write what he did then more power to you. I just don't have the courage to implicitly believe testimony from an anonymous source.

[skyblue888]

John,

We are in agreement on much of what you said. Yet Paul DOES speak out of both sides of his mouth, where he makes statements against the Law and then says, "May it never be" right after, thinking that absolves him of his duplicity. Does a positive statement for the Law negate a negative statement against it?

And yes there is a text in 2 Peter 3:15-16 that would seem to confirm your point of view, except for one minor detail-Peter could not possibly have written 2 Peter because he was already dead when it was written. So if you are willing to believe that the unknown author of 2 Peter (as with the unknown author of Hebrews) was inspired by God to write what he did then more power to you. I just don't have the courage to implicitly believe testimony from an anonymous source.

_________________________________

That in the Scriptures is called "vain babbling," MM, and you know it.

"...avoiding vain babblings and oppositions of knowledge falsely so called." 1 Tim.6:20.

"But shun profane and vain babblings; for they will increase unto more ungodliness." 1 Tim.2:16.

sky

[Dr. Rich]

John, you have no idea what it means to keep the commandments--do you? Please read the first one! That alone says it all. You are the one who brought up 'motivation' so tell me, what is IT that motivates you? NO WHERE do I see that there IS a wrong reason for keeping the commandments.

"So He declared to you His covenant which He COMMANDED you to perform, that is the ten commandments, and He wrote them on two tablets of stone." (Deut. 4:13)

"You shall therefore LOVE the Lord your God and always keep His charge, His statutes, His ordinances, and HIS COMMANDMENTS." (Duet. 11:1)

"See, I have set before you today, LIFE and PROSPERITY; and death and adversity; in that I command you today to LOVE the Lord your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments...that you may live....But IF your heart turns away and you will not obey...that you shall surely perish...So choose life in order that you may live..." (Deut. 30:15-19 is part)

Motivation? Duh?

[John317]

... Paul DOES speak out of both sides of his mouth, where he makes statements against the Law and then says, "May it never be" right after, thinking that absolves him of his duplicity. Does a positive statement for the Law negate a negative statement against it?

.

Are you talking about Romans 6: 1-2 and v. 15?

I don't see those statements as being against the law of God.

He's asking these questions because he realizes this is what some people were saying. They were twisting what Paul taught, and so Paul anticipated their argument and denied their position.

In the previous chapters, Paul taught that we are not justified before God by the deeds of the law (3: 20, 28). Many people conclude falsely from this that people can be justified and saved while living contrary to the moral law of God. Paul knew they were make this false argument, and therefore he writes as he does in Romans 6: 1-2, 15.

So Paul clearly denies precisely what you are claiming he teaches. Paul's gospel does not mean that we can live lawlessly before God and still be justified and saved. True faith leads to conformity to God's law, not rebellion and disobedience.

[John317]

...And yes there is a text in 2 Peter 3:15-16 that would seem to confirm your point of view, except for one minor detail-Peter could not possibly have written 2 Peter because he was already dead when it was written. So if you are willing to believe that the unknown author of 2 Peter (as with the unknown author of Hebrews) was inspired by God to write what he did then more power to you. I just don't have the courage to implicitly believe testimony from an anonymous source.

What you've given here is a theory of the dating and origin of the book of 2 Peter. But there is no proof that Peter was dead at the time 2 Peter was composed. There are Bible scholars who believe this, but even many of those who believe this, also believe that 2 Peter is a genuine part of the word of God.

There are several ways to explain the composition and dating of 2 Peter. One is that Peter's disciples used Peter's Hebrew writings and translated them into Greek for the churches. Peter was obviously not well educated and no doubt would have used a helper or a secretary, which was common in those days. Paul also used such a secretary. Paul would dictate to a secretary, who would then put the material into publishable form and send it to the churches. Jeremiah did somewhat the same thing, using Baruch as his secretary. Ellen White often did likewise.

In the case of Peter, it is also possible that his letters were edited and sent to the Greek-speaking churches after his death. But the point here is that they are Peter's message. The early Christian churches generally accepted those letters as having originated with Peter; and since that time, as Christians study that book and see the Holy Spirit working through it and changing their lives by means of it, they become even more certain that 2 Peter is indeed inspired Scripture.

Personally, as I study it, I sense the Holy Spirit speaking to my mind and heart.

Are you saying that as you study 2 Peter, you sense the voice and the presence of Satan in that book? I would have serious, grave fears for anyone who believes they are impressed by the Holy Spirit to conclude that 2 Peter is of the Devil.

Do you have to be absolutely certain of the name of the author of a Scripture in order to believe it and accept it as Scripture?

If so, there are many parts of the Old Testament the human author of which we cannot know for sure. This applies to many of the Psalms, the histories, and even parts of the Torah. We know that Moses did not write all of the first five books of the Bible, yet we are right to believe it is all inspired.

Did Jesus indicate that it was important to know who the human author was in order to accept them as inspired and trust-worthy? Obviously not. So we can apply this same principle to the New Testament.

[John317]

John, you have no idea what it means to keep the commandments--do you? Please read the first one! That alone says it all.

Yes, the command not to have any other gods before the Lord.

I would not argue falsely that I know eveything there is to know about keeping the commandments, nor would I argue falsely that I keep the commandments perfectly.

But I would deny that I know have no idea what it means to keep them. I have a great teacher and instructor-- the Holy Spirit, who uses the entire Bible and the Spirit of prophecy to help me understand what it means to keep the commandments of God.

The Holy Spirit has a long ways to go before He has helped me understand all there is to know about obedience to God. In fact, if I were the Holy Spirit, I would have given up on me a long time ago, because for about 30 years, I was in rebellion against God and stubborn just like the people of Israel on the borders of the Promised Land.

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

You are the one who brought up 'motivation' so tell me, what is IT that motivates you?

Love for Christ and the Holy Spirit's speaking to my heart and mind.

Yes, I did bring up motivation for obedience to God. Don't you see any evidence in Scripture that our motivation for obedience is important to God?

Does your wife care about your motivation for living with her? If she does, why would you suppose God doesn't care?

You even quote parts of the Bible that talk about our motivation for obeying God's commandments, but you evidently don't realize it. Jesus said, "If you love me, keep my commandments..."

Look also at Exodus 20: 6--

"but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments."

Have you ever heard of people who hate God while trying to keep His commandments because of their fear of death or punishment? I have. They are not motived by love but by the desire of heaven and fear of hell. That is OK to start with, but God doesn't want us to keep being motivated that way.

The same with parents-- it may be OK for a young child to obey his parents out of fear, but no intelligent, loving, wise parent wants his child to continue having those motivations for obeying the parent. Imagine an 18 year old boy obeying his parents out of fear for them. Let's suppose the parents die. Then will the 18 year old continue to do right? Certainly not. If the parents aren't around, he will have no more reason to do what's right, because he's only been obedient because of his fear. This is proof that the motivation behind the obdience to God is of great importance.

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

NO WHERE do I see that there IS a wrong reason for keeping the commandments.

How about the Jews who killed Christ? Did they have the right reason for their commandment keeping and resting on the Sabbath? Their false motives led them to murder God. So will anyone eventually want to do if they are not motivated by love for God.

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

..."You shall therefore LOVE the Lord your God and always keep His charge, His statutes, His ordinances, and HIS COMMANDMENTS." (Duet. 11:1)

"See, I have set before you today, LIFE and PROSPERITY; and death and adversity; in that I command you today to LOVE the Lord your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments...that you may live....But IF your heart turns away and you will not obey...that you shall surely perish...So choose life in order that you may live..." (Deut. 30:15-19 is part)

Motivation? Duh?

Dr. Rich, are you saying you don't see the motivation for obedience in those verses? How many times does God mention love as the reason for obeying God?

Can anyone truly obey God if he doesn't love God with his whole heart and mind?

[Guest]

Rich and MM say they can. They have to keep the commandments, AND become holy, before the Holy Spirit will have anything to do with them.

Could anything be more backwards?

[Guest]

I have a great teacher and instructor-- the Holy Spirit, who uses the entire Bible and the Spirit of prophecy to help me understand what it means to keep the commandments of God.

Amen!!!