Knowing Your Enemy: Satan's Attacks On SDAs

[John317]

And that, John is why we disagree--I guess. Because you believe God would NOT allow anything to get into the bible that was not inspired so that you can blame God for believing in a lie when the time comes up to enter that door.

Can you show which words below are of Satan or do you believe all of it is? In other words, is it the truth or a lie? And if you believe part of it is or all of it is, explain your position, please.

Quote:

None are in greater danger from the influence of evil spirits than those who, notwithstanding the direct and ample testimony of the Scriptures, deny the existence and agency of the devil and his angels. So long as we are ignorant of their wiles, they have almost inconceivable advantage; many give heed to their suggestions while they suppose themselves to be following the dictates of their own wisdom. This is why, as we approach the close of time, when Satan is to work with greatest power to deceive and destroy, he spreads everywhere the belief that he does not exist. It is his policy to conceal himself and his manner of working. {GC 516.2}

There is nothing that the great deceiver fears so much as that we shall become acquainted with his devices. The better to disguise his real character and purposes, he has caused himself to be so represented as to excite no stronger emotion than ridicule or contempt. He is well pleased to be painted as a ludicrous or loathsome object, misshapen, half animal and half human. He is pleased to hear his name used in sport and mockery by those who think themselves intelligent and well informed. GC:516

[Musicman1228]

John said, "How would God legally keep Satan from inspiring books of the Bible? Easily. The same way God did it in the Hebrew Scriptures."

Actually, John, God did not stop Satan from inspiring Old Testament Scripture any more than God stopped him from putting tares in with the wheat in the New Testament. At the time when the documents that later became the Torah and the Law and the Prophets were written Satan did not see any need to 'tweak' them, because he knew he would be able to get the people for whom these words were written to misinterpret and misunderstand them so thoroughly that even the Son of God could not change their minds. Why do you think Israel was not looking for a Messiah at the time when the the prophecies about the birth of the Messiah were actually being fulfilled? Why did it take pagan Kings from the east to show the experts on the Law that their understanding of Scripture was faulty?

Satan did not feel at all threatened by the Old Testament Scripture because he knew he could influence those that should have known better to a wrong way of thinking. But when the Son of God Himself came to earth to set the record straight about what was truth and what was lies Satan became very concerned that people would actually believe Jesus Christ and would come to know the truth about how salvation really worked. So Satan had to do something very creative to stop the truth from being made known and believed. He had to muddy the waters such that truth became indistinguishable from lies, and he did this by sending an apostle to counter the truth that Jesus Christ had delivered to His disciples. Satan did the same thing at the end of the 2300 evenings and mornings prophecy of Dan. 8:14 by sending to the newly reconstituted Kingdom of Heaven a prophet that would capture the hearts and minds of the members of this kingdom such that they would stop looking at the words of Jesus and look elsewhere for truth. Both of these have so far worked beautifully, as exemplified by the myriad of denominations that exist within the Christian church, rather than a unified assembly, and by providing a way of derailing the Kingdom of Heaven from doing the job that God raised it up to do.

I know you won't believe this now, but I am telling you this so that later you can reference it at the proper time and know that God knew this and planned for this to happen, even when He could not stop it from happening and still be the God of Truth.

[John317]

How would God legally keep Satan from inspiring books of the Bible? Easily. The same way God did it in the Hebrew Scriptures.

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

Actually, John, God did not stop Satan from inspiring Old Testament Scripture any more than God stopped him from putting tares in with the wheat in the New Testament.

What part of the Old Testament Scripture did Satan inspire?

Can you name the book or books or verses?

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

At the time when the documents that later became the Torah and the Law and the Prophets were written Satan did not see any need to 'tweak' them, because he knew he would be able to get the people for whom these words were written to misinterpret and misunderstand them so thoroughly that even the Son of God could not change their minds.

It sounds like you are saying that it was Satan's choice not to introduce false scriptures into the Hebrew Bible but to merely cause the people to misunderstand them. Is this correct?

How do you know this was Satan's choice? Where are you getting this information?

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

Why do you think Israel was not looking for a Messiah at the time when the the prophecies about the birth of the Messiah were actually being fulfilled? Why did it take pagan Kings from the east to show the experts on the Law that their understanding of Scripture was faulty?

Because they were led to misunderstand the Scripture. But that is far different from having Satan's writings in the Bible itself.

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

Satan did not feel at all threatened by the Old Testament Scripture because he knew he could influence those that should have known better to a wrong way of thinking.

OK, so now you are saying that Satan did not want to introduce false teachings into the Old Testament. You are apparently saying that God would have let Satan inspire false books but Satan did not want to do it.

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

But when the Son of God Himself came to earth to set the record straight about what was truth and what was lies Satan became very concerned that people would actually believe Jesus Christ and would come to know the truth about how salvation really worked. So Satan had to do something very creative to stop the truth from being made known and believed. He had to muddy the waters such that truth became indistinguishable from lies, and he did this by sending an apostle to counter the truth that Jesus Christ had delivered to His disciples.

This is all pure speculation and conjecture. You don't have a shred of valid evidence of this. If you have more than your opinion, please show it.

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

Satan did the same thing at the end of the 2300 evenings and mornings prophecy of Dan. 8:14 by sending to the newly reconstituted Kingdom of Heaven a prophet that would capture the hearts and minds of the members of this kingdom such that they would stop looking at the words of Jesus and look elsewhere for truth.

Who is this prophet that you allude to?

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

Both of these have so far worked beautifully, as exemplified by the myriad of denominations that exist within the Christian church, rather than a unified assembly, and by providing a way of derailing the Kingdom of Heaven from doing the job that God raised it up to do.

What you seem to me claiming is that the myriad of denominations is due to the books in the NT that you reject, but that is false. You also seem to be saying that the prophet that you believe Satan sent was Ellen White. But neither Ellen White nor Paul are responsible for the myriad of denominations that exist in the Christian church. The one responsible is Satan and his evil angels, which blind people to the truth by bringing in false and confusing doctrines such as those you are teaching.

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

I know you won't believe this now, but I am telling you this so that later you can reference it at the proper time and know that God knew this and planned for this to happen, even when He could not stop it from happening and still be the God of Truth.

Are you saying that God could not stop Satan from inspiring portions of the Old Testament Scriptures?

Are you saying that God could not stop Satan from inspiring and introducing large portions of the New Testament?

I find it incredible that you would believe that God was compelled to let Satan inspire portions of the Old Testament but Satan freely decided not to do so, although he then later chose to do it in the New Testament.

[Twilight]

How would God legally keep Satan from inspiring books of the Bible? Easily. The same way God did it in the Hebrew Scriptures.

Did God allow Satan to inspire parts of the Old Testament? If not, does this fact make it appear that God is removing free will from people who would be impacted?

And if God doesn't appear to be removing free will in that case, why would it appear that he's removing free will in the case of the NT?

Also, if the NT is full of Satan's words, how can it be called the word of God? Is it some words of God and some words of Satan? That would mean it's the word of Satan. Truth and lies mixed is nothing but a lie. If I testify in a court of law, and I mix lies with my testimony, I don't get credit for telling partial truths. My testimony would be considered a lie and any judge who knew it to be a lie but yet allowed it to be introduced as truthful testimony would also be considered undependable and unethical. It would be valid legal grounds for a dismissal. So, also, the Bible would be a lie if God allowed Satan to introduce lies into it.

Very good point!

I would like MM to consider this and respond. :-)

[Twilight]

I find it incredible that you would believe that God was compelled to let Satan inspire portions of the Old Testament but Satan freely decided not to do so, although he then later chose to do it in the New Testament.

I wonder what the source of this information is?

Personal revelation perhaps?

Where did you get this idea from MM?

[Musicman1228]

John and Co.

I will respond, but right now I have to get ready for work. I will say this; your current perspective and paradigm does not allow you the luxury of logic in this, being such an emotional issue, and I don't blame you. This is a picture of God that would shake the faith of a saint. That does not mean that it's not true. So stay tuned and I'll post later today.

[Musicman1228]

For those of you who are interested here is a link to a web page that contains and article I wrote on Free Will. This will give you the background as to why I believe what I believe about how God views Free Will, and what our responsibilities are relative to it. I hope that you will do me the honor of reading through this paper and letting me know what you think. It addresses many of the issues that were questioned by John and others, and I think you will find it informative.

Free Will

[Dr. Rich]

John, you wrote "Do you really think that God saves any sinner on the basis of anything but His mercy and unmerited favor? Does God save people because they've earned it by their perfect obedience and their own righteousness?"

My answer: Rev. 22:11 "Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and let the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still PRACTICE righteousness; and let the one who is holy, still keep himself holy."

Rev. 22:12 "Behold, I am coming quickly, and my reward is with Me, to render to every man [person] according to what he has done."

Rev. 22:14 "Blessed are those who WASH THEIR [OWN] ROBES that they may have the right to the tree of life, and my enter by the gates into the city."

These are the words of Jesus, so John if it is different than what you belive by faith, don't blame me.

[Dr. Rich]

John wrote "What is the reason that God did not allow anything from Satan to get into the Old Testament? Please answer this directly."

Are you serious? Satan was not in the abyss like he is right now and he could (and did) free access to do as he pleased. (Read Job and the temptation of Christ) The 'scriptures' were in the custody of the High Priest and in the Temple and no one else had access to them--so tell me, what good would it do since the Jews refused to accept righteousness anyway?

Also, if you will notice, there have been books added to our OT that were NOT among the 'scriptures' that Jesus read from. If you didn't know this then you need to do some more research.

Jesus did prophecy about what was going to happen and can be found in Matthew 13. His words are the wheat seeds found in the NT and later, the weed seeds got planted in the same place as the wheat seeds. Look, Jesus said it and I believe it! It is just that simple!

IF you don't belive this, then tell me this-How did Jesus plant the wheat seeds? Where were the seeds planted?

[skyblue888]

Is this not a total waste of time to debate these side issues?

Crying baby to distract from the real issues, may be? :)

[Dr. Rich]

John as for the inspiration of the bible writer, I have to go with what Jesus said in John 14:26 and 17:17-20--period.

Why didn't Jesus give the 'Revelation' to Paul? Why didn't Jesus choose Paul to be a disciple? Why doesn't Paul's gospel agree with what Jesus said? Why did Barnibas and John Mark split up with Paul? Why did all of Asia (those in Ephesus too) turn on Paul and say that he preached lawlessness? Why isn't there any grace found in the Ten Virgin prophecy? Why did the writers of the dead sea scrolls say that Paul was "a spouting liar"? I could go on and on, but this is ONLY MY understanding and I really don't care if you don't want to accept this or not.

I have explained WHY I believe the way I do. You have explained why you believe the way you do. I am fine with that. I pray that we will some day know what the real truth is and both be in the Kingdom of Heaven.

One more thing: IF your way (belief) is true, then I am still saved by grace. IF my way (belief) is true, then faith and grace is not going to do anyone much good--is it?

[Dr. Rich]

Ok, I will ask, what are the 'real issues'?

[John317]

One more thing: IF your way (belief) is true, then I am still saved by grace. IF my way (belief) is true, then faith and grace is not going to do anyone much good--is it?

You show by this statement that you have no true understanding of what the Bible means by being saved by God's grace through faith. This is despite the fact that it has been explained from Scripture and the writings of Ellen White over and over again.

God's grace does not mean there are no conditions to salvation. One of those conditions is putting one's trust in Christ's merits and rightouesness and not in one's own. Your and my righteousness are as filthy rags and will never merit being put in right relationship with God.

A man is set right with God only through faith in Christ and His righteousness, not by works of law or by putting our trust in our own righteousness. If you expect God to save you on the basis of your performance in obeying any law, you will be lost. The law of God is primarily for the purpose of showing us our sins and our need of a Savior. True faith will lead us to obey God's law, but this obediencce is never the ground of God's unmerited favor. Obedience to God demonstrates our love, trust and loyalty, but it doesn't earn us merit with God.

[John317]

...I will say this; your current perspective and paradigm does not allow you the luxury of logic in this, being such an emotional issue, and I don't blame you.

It is not an emotional issue with me. I am asking you questions unrelated to emotion but very directly related to reasoning in the Scriptures. Please reply directly to my posts and the questions I posed.

[John317]

Do you really think that God saves any sinner on the basis of anything but His mercy and unmerited favor? Does God save people because they've earned it by their perfect obedience and their own righteousness?

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

My answer: Rev. 22:11 "Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and let the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still PRACTICE righteousness; and let the one who is holy, still keep himself holy."

Again, you show that you misunderstand the essence of the gospel. I'm NOT saying our lives and obedience to God have nothing to do with salvation. Our obedience demonstrates our love for God and our loyalty to Christ. At the second coming, Christ is not going to take anyone to heaven who is continuing to practice things they know to be sinful and wrong, because such willful and deliberate disobedience shows their faith is not genuine.

The verse you quote has to do with the end of human probabtion, at which point everyone on earth will have made the choice who they will serve and obey.

Can you see how these facts don't mean that we earn our salvation or merit God's grace by our obedience?

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

Rev. 22:12 "Behold, I am coming quickly, and my reward is with Me, to render to every man [person] according to what he has done."

Yes, this is true, of course. But again, this verse doesn't mean that people earn salvation by their works. It means that our lives demonstrate the genuineness of our faith or the lack thereof. Our lives are judged in the judgement that takes place before Christ returns with His rewards.

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

Rev. 22:14 "Blessed are those who WASH THEIR [OWN] ROBES that they may have the right to the tree of life, and my enter by the gates into the city."

The Majority text of this verse is also true:

Rev. 22:14

Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Both translations mean the same thing.

How do we wash our robes? Does washing our robes constitute earning our salvation?

No. Washing our robes means letting Christ clean up our sinful characters, and we do this day by day through a personal relationship with Christ as we submit to Him and surrender all of our sins to Him. WE are washed and cleansed in Christ's blood. It is putting into practice daily what we read in 1 John 1: 9:

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

As we do this, our characters become changed into the likeness of Christ's character.

But again washing our robes in Christ's blood and righteousness doesn't earn us merit with God. What this washing does is show that our faith is real and that we're not just claiming to believe in Christ.

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

These are the words of Jesus, so John if it is different than what you belive by faith, don't blame me.

But it is not different. As I've shown, none of those verses teach that we earn merit with God by our obedience. God doesn't save anyone because he's obligated to. God saves us because of His mercy and love and because of what Christ has done on the cross and in our lives. Our lives and our works are a demonstration that we have truly allowed Christ to be our personal Savior and Master.

[John317]

What is the reason that God did not allow anything from Satan to get into the Old Testament? Please answer this directly.

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

Are you serious? Satan was not in the abyss like he is right now and he could (and did) free access to do as he pleased. (Read Job and the temptation of Christ)

Yes, I'm serious. Could you please explain what you mean by what you say here? How does what you say here answer what I asked? Something seems to be missing in your sentences.

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

The 'scriptures' were in the custody of the High Priest and in the Temple and no one else had access to them--so tell me, what good would it do since the Jews refused to accept righteousness anyway?

Is this your reasoning as to why Satan did not inspire anything in the Old Testament scriptures?

I think you are digging a hole for yourselves. Is this the kind of answers to this question you would give on your radio program? And do your listeners accept this as truth?

Is the above your reason for believing that Satan had access to the OT but simply decided not to alter the Scriptures because he didn't see any good purpose in it?

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

Also, if you will notice, there have been books added to our OT that were NOT among the 'scriptures' that Jesus read from.

Please give the titles of those Old Testament books. I'm talking about the canon of the Old Testament as the Hebrews accepted them.

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

If you didn't know this then you need to do some more research.

Again, I'm asking you why God didn't allow Satan to introduce false books or false teachings into the Hebrew Scriptures-- which are the same as those that you and I accept today.

What false books or false teaching are found in the Hebrew Scriptures of the Old Testament? If you know of any, please list them here.

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

Jesus did prophecy about what was going to happen and can be found in Matthew 13. His words are the wheat seeds found in the NT and later, the weed seeds got planted in the same place as the wheat seeds. Look, Jesus said it and I believe it! It is just that simple!

Please show your reasoning for believing that Matt. 13 refers to Satan's being able to add his books or false teachings to the New Testament.

Matt. 13 has to do with the weeds and wheat in the church, not in the Bible. It is talking about people, not Holy Writings. Jesus said nothing about being careful about what you read in the Scriptures because it will be part God's word and part Satan's word. On the contrary, God's word says that His word is pure.

Did God allow Satan to add one of his evil commandments to the Ten Commandments? No. Why not? Because God doesn't allow Satan to add his lies to God's words and commandments.

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

IF you don't belive this, then tell me this-How did Jesus plant the wheat seeds? Where were the seeds planted?

Dr. Rich, the weeds and the wheat in Matt. 13 represent people. The good seeds are the people of God and the bad seeds are the people of the Devil. They are both together in the church. The seed in Mark 4: 13-20 is the word of God. Satan takes away the word from some people who don't have the word sown deeply enough.

Let me know where you see clear Bible evidence in the parables that God allows Satan to add his false teachings to the Bible.

I don't see any evidence in these parables that Satan is able to inspire parts of the Holy Scriptures. Read below:

Matthew 13:19, 24-30

[19] When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is what was sown along the path.

[24] He put another parable before them, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field, [25] but while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat and went away. [26] So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared also. [27] And the servants of the master of the house came and said to him, 'Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have weeds?' [28] He said to them, 'An enemy has done this.' So the servants said to him, 'Then do you want us to go and gather them?' [29] But he said, 'No, lest in gathering the weeds you root up the wheat along with them. [30] Let both grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.' "

Mark 4:13-20

And he said to them, "Do you not understand this parable? How then will you understand all the parables? [14] The sower sows the word. [15] And these are the ones along the path, where the word is sown: when they hear, Satan immediately comes and takes away the word that is sown in them. [16] And these are the ones sown on rocky ground: the ones who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy. [17] And they have no root in themselves, but endure for a while; Then, when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately they fall away. [18] And others are the ones sown among thorns. They are those who hear the word, [19] but the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches and the desires for other things enter in and choke the word, and it proves unfruitful. [20] But those that were sown on the good soil are the ones who hear the word and accept it and bear fruit, thirtyfold and sixtyfold and a hundredfold."

[John317]

...Why didn't Jesus give the 'Revelation' to Paul?

That makes about as much sense as asking why Jesus didn't inspire John to write Matthew. Or why God didn't inspire Jeremiah to write Ezekiel. Hundreds of such questions could be asked-- but to what purpose?

The only answer to any of such questions is that God decides who He gives visions and dreams to.

God uses different people with different abilities and gifts and personalities. He obviously isn't going to just use one person to do all of His work on this earth.

I suppose one likely reason that Jesus didn't give "Revelation" to Paul was that Paul had been martyrd for his faith in Christ about 40 years earlier.

But what exactly do you conclude from the fact that Jesus didn't inspire Paul to write the book of Revelation?

Show your reasoning here. It sounds very far-fetched to me, I'll tell you that.

Does Wayfinder teach and believe what you are saying? I find it hard to believe that he would. I'd like to hear what he says on this.

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

Why didn't Jesus choose Paul to be a disciple?

That makes about as much sense as asking why Jesus didn't choose Peter or Matthew to be the apostle to the Gentiles.

You'll need to ask Christ such questions. That will be a good question along with why Christ didn't choose women to be among the 12 disciples.

But are you saying your conjectural answer to this question is an important part of the basis of your belief that Paul was of the Devil?

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

Why doesn't Paul's gospel agree with what Jesus said?

You haven't proved that it doesn't. You also haven't shown persuasive evidence to me that you understand the gospel that Paul preached. That's a first step in trying to show that Paul didn't agree with Jesus. Frist show that you understand what Paul's gospel is and what Jesus said. If you believe that Jesus didn't see faith in Him and in His Father as an essential part of being His follower, then I would have to conclude that you haven't yet fully grasped what Jesus' life and teachings are all about. By the same token, if you believe Paul taught that obedience to God's law is contrary to faith, then again I would have to conclude that you haven't undertood Paul.

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

Why did Barnibas and John Mark split up with Paul?

Because John Mark gave Paul evidence that Mark wasn't mature enough to stick with the job. He quit during a missionary trip, and it caused Paul to doubt Mark's commitment to the work of spreading the gospel. Later Paul changed his mind about Mark.

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

Why did all of Asia (those in Ephesus too) turn on Paul and say that he preached lawlessness?

Where does it say they thought Paul preached lawlessness? Whatever they thought, they thought it for the same reason you think Paul taught lawlessness-- they misunderstood Paul and accepted lies about him rather than studying to understand what he actually believed.

By the way, it is not true that everyone in Asia turned on Paul. "All" is often used in the sense of many or most. It is obvious that Onesiphorus of Ephesus did not turn against Paul.

The reason that many turned (temporarily) against Paul's gospel is found in Paul's epistles. They were turned against him by false apostles, especially those of the circumcision as well as by other false teachers.

The book of Acts and the other NT writings show that this was due to the work of Satan who obviously opposed the work of Paul. Satan opposed Paul for the same reason Satan opposes and hates the Seventh-day Adventist Church: because he taught the truth.

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

Why isn't there any grace found in the Ten Virgin prophecy?

There is. It's in the oil. The Holy Spirit is a gift of God due to His grace. God doesn't give the Holy Spirit to people because they worked for it.

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

Why did the writers of the dead sea scrolls say that Paul was "a spouting liar"?

Are those dead sea scrolls you refer to inspired? How do you know they tell the truth and are not liars themselves? Are those scrolls a part of inspired Scripture? Why do you accept them as authority over the Bible?

Give the source for your quote. Who said it?

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

I could go on and on,

I don't doubt it one bit. You apparently will accept anything and everything that supports your belief against the New Testament canon.

But are those conjectures and mere opinions you mention the reason you are convinced that Paul is of the Devil?

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

but this is ONLY MY understanding and I really don't care if you don't want to accept this or not.

It isn't a matter of whether I want to accept it. It's a matter of whether it is true and whether there is valid biblical reason for believing as you do. As of now, I don't see any valid reason from the Bible to believe it, and you haven't shown it. All you've shown is conjecture and guess-work, and I think you've proven it in this post. For instance, your question about why God didn't give "the Revelation" to Paul instead of to John is irrelevant and cannot be answered by any human being.

Frankly, it's clear to me that your reasons for rejecting most of the New Testament are based on conjecture, faulty reasoning, and misunderstandings of much of the New Testament.

[John317]

John as for the inspiration of the bible writer, I have to go with what Jesus said in John 14:26 and 17:17-20--period.

Can you show how those words of Christ mean that you can't accept the letters of Paul, James, Peter, the Gospels of Luke and Mark, Acts, Jude, and Hebrews.

[John317]

John and Co.

I will respond, but right now I have to get ready for work. I will say this; your current perspective and paradigm does not allow you the luxury of logic in this,

OK, thanks. I'll wait.

Could you also include a response to post #409086 ?

I always try very hard to answer people's questions and posts directly as I would if I were sitting across from them with our Bible's open or having a conversation over dinner. What I find rather frustrating is when people ignore posts and simply add more of their opinions without responding to what the other person has said in reply to previous posts. I know you don't mean to do this, but that seems to be the way this exchange is going.

I won't write any more posts until you've had time to repond to the ones already written.

By the way, have you and Wayfinder ever had a panel of Bible students or theologians on your radio program who believe in the whole NT and can answer your objections to the books you reject? Have you ever recorded a dialogue with someone knowlegeable about the Bible who has read your book, Spirit of the Church, and can show you the errors it contains? If so, I'd like to hear the recording.

Did you allow anyone who disagreed with you to read your book before it was published? That is always a good thing to do before publication because it has a way of bringing out things the writer should know in order to make the book's argument stronger. The writer (and those who agree with the writer) is likely to miss weaknesses and mistakes that someone else will be able to point out, and this can never be a bad thing for a writer who is determined to write a good book.

[John317]

For those of you who are interested here is a link to a web page that contains and article I wrote on Free Will.

Free Will

I tried to read it but it doesn't take me to an article. It only says "Must Read" and when I clicked on it, it still didn't take me to an article on Free Will.

[Musicman1228]

Sorry John,

The link must have not worked properly. I'll try again:

Free Will-Creation's Crowning Achievement http://web.me.com/spiritoftruth/STM/Must_Read/Entries/2008/7/28_Free_Will-Creation’s_Crowning_Achievement.html

I just tried it and the link now works. Yeah.

[Musicman1228]

If you don't see text just scroll down, it is there.

[John317]

OK, thanks, I'll read it.

Added later:

Ok, I read it. It would take an entire thread to deal with all the errors in your essay, MM. I hardly know where to begin. You have God creating humans before he created the first man, Adam; then you have the fallen angels having sex with human women; then you have Adam standing dumb as a dumb dog right beside Eve as he watches the love of his life be deceived by a talking snake. This is just for starters.

I'll be real honest with you and Wayfinder and Dr. Rich and say that I believe you are good examples of Satan's hatred for the Seventh-day Adventist Church and of how he attacks SDAs individually and as a church. I don't say this with any personal animosity or dislike for either one of you, as I'm sure you know, but I say this really very seriously and sincerely as a friend and as someone who's deeply concerned for you and for our church.

[Musicman1228]

OK, thanks, I'll read it.

Added later:

Ok, I read it. It would take an entire thread to deal with all the errors in your essay, MM. I hardly know where to begin. You have God creating humans before he created the first man, Adam; then you have the fallen angels having sex with human women; then you have Adam standing dumb as a dumb dog right beside Eve as he watches the love of his life be deceived by a talking snake. This is just for starters.

I'll be real honest with you and Wayfinder and Dr. Rich and say that I believe you are good examples of Satan's hatred for the Seventh-day Adventist Church and of how he attacks SDAs individually and as a church. I don't say this with any personal animosity or dislike for either one of you, as I'm sure you know, but I say this really very seriously and sincerely as a friend and as someone who's deeply concerned for you and for our church.

And you, John, are another example of a person that cannot imagine truth different from what you already 'know' to be true. Yes, God created the Nations before He 'Formed' Adam and brought Eve out of him; and I believe that because that is what it says in Chapter 1 and 2 of Genesis, in that order. Evil Angels did go into the daughters of men and produced the Nephilim, and that is exactly what it says in Gen.6:4. And Adam did stand like a dumb dog and was right with Eve at the Tree of the Learning of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, just as it says in Gen. 3:6. Anyone that tells you that Eve wandered away from Adam and met the Serpent alone is lying, and this includes EGW.

You DARE to tell me that I am a servant of Satan, and that I hate the SDA church. You do this based on erroneous information which you have never bothered to confirm. You have NO IDEA what you are saying when you make those kind of accusations WITHOUT KNOWING OR CARING ABOUT THE FACTS. You only see what you want to see, you do not see what is reality. You believe what you have been taught by people who are as blind a bats when it comes to truth. You sit smugly in your arrogance and say 'My church can't be wrong because we have a prophet who is always right and can never be wrong because God would never allow this to happen". Yet even when you are shown these errors you say that 'we must be wrong' just because what you believe 'must be right'.

John, you began your second paragraph with the words "I'll be honest . . .", but this is the exact opposite of what you demonstrate. The institutional arrogance and denominational hubris you have learned from the SDA corporation prevents you from being able to be honest with yourself, much less anyone else. And because of this I'll bet that as you were reading my paper you were not trying to learn anything. I'll bet that all you were doing was trying to find where I was wrong. I'll bet you didn't look up ONE text to see what it said. Why would you do that when you already know what it says based on what you hear from the SDA corporate representatives (Pastors, GC, EGW, etc).

I also don't say this with any personal animosity or dislike for you, as you do with me. But you need to heed the advice you gave to me for yourself. I, too, am deeply concerned for you because I know you take the study of Scripture seriously, just as do I. I believe you are a good man struggling as am I to find the truth.

John, I have never, and never will accuse you of being a servant of Satan, because you are not; and neither am I, nor is Wayfinder and Dr. Rich. We just believe differently. I believe that our differences lay in the fact that you accept source authority from writers other than the Son of God and Him alone. You believe with all your heart that I am at a disadvantage in my understanding because I don't use the same sources as do you; but in this I believe you are mistaken. There is only ONE source for truth that is unimpeachable, and that source is the Son of God, Jesus Christ. I pray that someday in the not so distant future you will see things the same way as I do, but that is entirely up to you, and how you react to the leading of the true Holy Spirit. God bless you, my friend, as you ponder these things.

[Rondo]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

Roger Morneau also said that he was told of specific targetting of the Seventh-day Adventist church by Satan's forces.

Paul speaks of Satan's opposition in Ephesians 6 and Peter talks about it in 1Peter 5.

Yes, it seems clearly to harmonize with what the Bible teaches. It makes very good sense when we consider that the SDA church was raised up especially to give the last-day message, The Three Angels' Messages, to prepare a people and the world for Christ's return. Satan obviously is trying to fight every move that God makes in that regard because the Second Coming spells the end to Satan's plans.

Satan hates all people because he knows God loves them, but the Bible doesn't say he makes war against all people. It says Satan comes as a lion making war against the remnant of the woman's seed-- against those who keep the commandments of God, have the faith of Jesus and the testimony of Jesus Christ, which is the Spirit of prophecy.

We can take this one step further and say that Satan is especially angry with believers who he feels are the greatest threat to his kingdom. We know that the true Remanant consist of those who keep the commandments of God, have the faith of Jesus and the testimony of Jesus. This doesn't describe all SDAs. This describes a remnant within the church. Only God and the angels really know the identity of these people, but we can be sure Satan and his fallen angels are particularly after anyone who he thinks may be among that group of believers.

To me, this means that we all need to be aware that if we are serious about Christ and His kingdom, we will be the special target of Satan's deceptions and his hatred against Christ. He would like nothing better than to see such people fall.

But we have these promises from One who cannot lie:

Jude 1:24

Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy.

1 Thes. 5:23-24

Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. [24] He who calls you is faithful; he will surely do it.

Romans 8:35-39

Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? [36] As it is written,

"For your sake we are being killed all the day long;

we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered."

[37] No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. [38] For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, [39] nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

John, these sort of quotes ought to keep you and others well entrenched in your positions. EGW speaks very little about the Covenants and I think that is a gaping hole in what needs to be understood. Again, most of the understanding will come, between Acts and Jude.