Knowing Your Enemy: Satan's Attacks On SDAs

[Twilight]

I repeat; why am I not an SDA? Just because you say so? I certainly did not give you the authority to make that determination on my behalf.

I did not make that determination, you did.

When you deny the teachings of the Church, then you are not in accord with it.

How can you claim membership of something that you believe teaches apostasy?

I.E. that the writings of Ellen White and Paul were inspired by satan.

[Musicman1228]

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

The story of Paul and the prophet Agabus is found in Act. 21:7-14.

Could you please respond directly to the points raised in post #407284 with regard to your earlier post about Agabus and Paul?

John,

Do you know what an actor is? An actor is someone that pretends to be someone other than who he really is. In Greek the word for 'actor' is hypocrite. An actor is trained in the use of deceptive arts to convince the audience that who they see is who he really is. To use the words of a movie producer in the Disney film the 'Rocketeer' - 'Acting is acting like you are not acting.' Paul openly admits to being a hypocrite, an actor, in his attempt to win/save people for Christ through his (Paul's) gospel. Paul didn't say that he would become anything for anyone, he said he had BECOME (past tense) whoever he needed to be to achieve his goal. Paul is one of the greatest actors in all of history, because he has deceived an entire world (the Christian world) into believing that he is something that he is not. This is the essence of deception, and is just what Jesus warned us we should watch out for in Matt. 24:4-5. Paul even openly admits this in the following text:

But if through my lie God's truth abounds to his glory, why am I still being condemned as a sinner? Rom.3:7.

And if this admission was not sufficient he made it even more plain in the next text:

But be that as it may, I have not burdened you. Yet because I was a crafty person, I took you in by deceit!  2Cor.12:16.

Now I know you will take exception at this and say that Paul did not really mean these things, that I MUST be taking these quote out of context and i am not sufficiently intelligent to understand what Paul actually meant without instruction from an expert in the writings of Paul. I will admit that I am a simple man who prefers a simple answer to a more complex one. One of my mottos is "If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck and walks like a duck, it's a duck." I also like "If you hear hoofs you are probably hearing a horse not a zebra". The simplest answer is usually the correct one. To me these quotes (and others) fall under this category.

As to Paul going to Jerusalem: If God was trying to stop Paul from going to Jerusalem (which apparently was the case) and Paul himself believe that Agabus was prophet of God (which apparently he did) then what is it about the character of Paul that would cause him to go against the obvious will of God? Could it be the same issue that he spoke about in 2 Cor.12 when he said that 'God' gave him a demon to stop him from boasting about the visions he was receiving? It would seem logical to me that the demon that Paul asked three times to be removed from him was still in him causing him to disobey the very 'God' that caused the demon to be in him in the first place.

There are only two possibilities here: 1) that the 'God' that gave Paul this 'messenger of Satan' is indeed the God of Creation-in which case Paul in his arrogance (boasting) because of this implanted demon disobeyed a direct order from the same God that put the demon in him in the first place, so it is God's fault that Paul disobeyed, or: 2) the 'god' that gave Paul the demon was NOT the God of Creation, but was Satan in the form of God; in which case Paul was being led to go to Jerusalem by this false god, and arrogantly and blatantly ignored the warning of the true God through his prophet (which could have saved his life), thus disobeying the true God of Creation-and will suffer the same fate as anyone that disobeys God and does not repent.

Either of these situations are problematic for those that believe that Paul was a true apostle of Jesus Christ.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

...I am going to start a new thread on the doctines of Babylon very soon.

I think it will be an enlightening discussion, that will deal with this issue. :-)

Great idea, Mark. What are the doctrines of spiritual Babylon?

It is an important topic John317.

I have started it here with an overview of my understanding:

http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthread...html#Post407459

[Dr. Rich]

There is a third possibility-that Paul had been given the job to infiltrate THE WAY and intended to cause confusion thereby knowing that his work was about done so he went because he wanted a show down to end it.

Surprisingly, no one knows what happened to Paul after being taken away by the Romans. He could have been placed into a witness protection program.

[Guest]

I have no doubt that she will be saved and in the Kingdom,

[Guest]

There is a third possibility-that Paul had been given the job to infiltrate THE WAY and intended to cause confusion thereby knowing that his work was about done so he went because he wanted a show down to end it.

Surprisingly, no one knows what happened to Paul after being taken away by the Romans. He could have been placed into a witness protection program.

For all we know, YOU could be in Satan's witness protection program.

As long as we're speculating....

[Musicman1228]

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

I have no doubt that she will be saved and in the Kingdom,

Nuff said then. What's your point? Isn't that the only thing that matters? I do believe it is.

Quote:

Yet, how sad it is when good hearted people believe that knowing the words of Ellen White are more important than knowing the words of the Master.

You are assuming, (as you very often do) that because she read all of Ellen White's writings, that she didn't read the Bible, or the words of Jesus. I've never heard of anyone ever doing that, but the fact is, that you can't read EGW's writings without reading the words of Jesus. They are quoted throughout.

Also, Jesus told Ellen White what to say about a lot of things.

Hey Richard,

God IS merciful to those that love Him, even when they have believed a lie about Him as if it were the truth. We are all only responsible for the truth we know, up until the moment of our deaths. That is a true statement of fact. Yet those that live to reach the Shaking of the SDA church (brought about by the midnight cry that the Bridegroom is here right now, come out to meet Him) and then those of the world that live to come to the Great Tribulation will have to make a choice based on the facts in evidence at that time. Then your erroneous beliefs will not save you from the judgement of the Ruler of the Universe, no matter how much you claim that you love God.

The billions of people that now and will sleep in the dust before that time will only be judged on what they knew, and what they did based on that knowledge, as long as they didn't refuse the opportunity to learn the truth when presented. Those that are alive when the Master returns will be judged not only on what they knew and what they did with that knowledge but on what they COULD HAVE KNOWN and SHOULD HAVE KNOWN had they had the eyes to see and ears to hear.

[John317]

The story of Paul and the prophet Agabus is found in Act. 21:7-14.

Originally Posted By: John3:17

Could you please respond directly to the points raised in post #407284 with regard to your earlier post about Agabus and Paul?

Originally Posted By: Musicman

Do you know what an actor is? An actor is someone that pretends to be someone other than who he really is. In Greek the word for 'actor' is hypocrite. An actor is trained in the use of deceptive arts to convince the audience that who they see is who he really is. To use the words of a movie producer in the Disney film the 'Rocketeer' - 'Acting is acting like you are not acting.'

Please check out my posts in response to your original post on this topic. You're not replying to anything I said. Did you read my three posts?

Did you see where you claimed Agabus had 3 daughters who prophesied, whereas it was Phillip the Evangelist who had the 3 virgin daughters who prophesied?

Please look at my posts and respond directly to what I said there.

[John317]

There is a third possibility-that Paul had been given the job to infiltrate THE WAY and intended to cause confusion thereby knowing that his work was about done so he went because he wanted a show down to end it.

Surprisingly, no one knows what happened to Paul after being taken away by the Romans. He could have been placed into a witness protection program.

This is all speculation and foolishness. I'm amazed you don't see this, Dr. Rich.

Instead of believing the word of God, you will evidently reject it in order to hold on to speculation and opinion that is contrary to what the Bible teaches.

[Dr. Rich]

Richard and John, I could say the same for you-so be it! I thought you didn't want to have this be personal. What I said is not my idea alone as many others have said the same thing. It is not foolish to put to test those who call themselves apostles (Rev.2:2) By saying that anyone testing the ones who called THEMSELVES apostles is foolish would be the same (in my opinion)as calling God foolish.

How many Christians believe like you do John and Richard? Would you say the majority? Hmmm? That alone is a scarry thing is my opinion.

[Overaged]

John, this is the type of scare tactics that take confidence away from members of the church. Let me give you an example.

Here in St. Louis, the Mormons built a Italian marble Temple that I drive by frequently. Before they dedicated it, they allow nonMormons to tour, with foot covers on, of course. I was at that time attending a Presbyterian Church and some of the members were afraid to tour it. Why, because they were afraid they would be decieved. I wanted to see it to confirm what I was told goes on in one of their temples.

Christians that don't know other that what their own denomination teaches should as EGW says stay in their secluded environment. But those working the world, should be able to always give a reason for the hope that is with us. Each Christian should develop a critical mind to be able to spot truth or falsehood. EGW fans the flames of fear, rather than encouraging a strenghening of that Critical Mind.

Rondo; either you have not read what you said here was "evidence" or you are not concerned with being truthful...First of all; This quote of Ellen G White has nothing to do with "scare tactics." If you would investigate the context and meaning of this quote; you would first notice that it is contained within a chapter called "The Impending Conflict." She spends the entire passage educating INTERESTED Adventists on what other denominations will be doing, what beliefs they will be ENFORCING and how to recognize their deceptions. Most people I know who read Ellen White are very well informed about all the other, major denominations. You said that Christians must "develop a critical mind to be able to spot truth or falsehood." Ellen White does a splendid job of this in this chapter of The Great Controversy. The very next chapter in this truth-filled book is called "The Scriptures Our Safeguard." Hardly meets your contorted scare tactic scruples.

[John317]

..How many Christians believe like you do John and Richard? Would you say the majority? Hmmm? That alone is a scarry thing is my opinion.

Are you claiming that we should reject all beliefs that many people share? Is that the test or the standard? If something is believed by a majority of a group of people, it must be error and rejected as such. What kind of reasoning is this?

Wouldn't such reasoning jettison a great deal of truth? What if the Israelites had used the same standards?

The only correct standard or measuring stick is the entire Bible.

[John317]

Richard and John, I could say the same for you-so be it! I thought you didn't want to have this be personal.

Are you saying this in response to the following:

Originally Posted By: John3:17

This is all speculation and foolishness. I'm amazed you don't see this, Dr. Rich.

Instead of believing the word of God, you will evidently reject it in order to hold on to speculation and opinion that is contrary to what the Bible teaches.

[Overaged]

Richard and John, I could say the same for you-so be it! I thought you didn't want to have this be personal. What I said is not my idea alone as many others have said the same thing. It is not foolish to put to test those who call themselves apostles (Rev.2:2) By saying that anyone testing the ones who called THEMSELVES apostles is foolish would be the same (in my opinion)as calling God foolish.

How many Christians believe like you do John and Richard? Would you say the majority? Hmmm? That alone is a scarry thing is my opinion.

Actually, that is strictly YOUR opinion, and your opinion ignores the clear context and truth of Rev 2:2 It wasn't just anyone who felt like it that did this "testing" of people claiming to be apostles; and even the ones who did do it were accused by Jesus in this same verse of leaving their "first love," so it kind of looks like maybe the big-wigs who thought so much of themselves as to be so eminently qualified to judge who was a true apostle and who was not, were in fact filled with the error of their pernicious ways. I have had some disagreement with the two forum members you just took a pot shot at here; but they have also both been a great blessing to me on this forum, and I have learned much about God's Word from both of them and what they post here.

[Overaged]

In reference to the OP here, what is your point in denigrating the Bible as it is commonly accepted? By what authority do you and your cohorts revamp the Biblical Canon into what you say it is? To me; nothing could signify a determined hatred of Seventh-day Adventists more than this. We are a people of the Bible - the whole Bible, all of which is God's Word. Your determination to dismantle the Bible into your own private interpretation shows your intentions. /quote]

The story of Paul and the prophet Agabus is found in Act. 21:7-14.

I am NOT denigrating the Bible; everything that is in the Bible is there for a reason, some is there for reasons that we may not like. And speaking of that, why should I accept something that is merely commonly accepted as truth? By who's authority should I do this? Who among you has the right to tell me what and in whom I should believe? Are you responsible for my salvation, or am I to work out my salvation with fear (of God) and trembling? Who put the biblical canon together and for what reason? And is that reason enough to make the claim that it is the infallible, inerrant, indisputable 'word of God'?

The reason that I ask these questions is the I am determined to find the truth, where ever and how ever I can. And just because you and others make unsubstantiated claims on the authority of the New Testament (the OT being confirmed by Jesus) does not mean that I must do the same or loose my soul.

Also, your saying that because I choose that which I will or won't believe to be true as confirming that I have hatred for the SDA church is absurd on it's face. The only thing I hate is when people try to force me to believe a lie as if it is the truth, just so I can claim to be a member of an exclusive religious club. I AM an enthusiastic SDA. I love my church, which is why it pains me no end when that church says that I can't belong because I choose to believe something different than the masses. Is there no longer any room in our church for the civil discussion of these issues, or must we all 'toe the line' and march in lock step? Remember, those that march with the masses are marching on the wide road that leads to destruction. I'm sorry if it irks you that I choose not to join you.

No; what I said was not "absurd," and no, you are not interested in finding truth. Your posts here do not reflect that at all. You remind me of a Jehovah's Witness Elder who came to my door for another of a series of "studies" they wanted to give me, and I will never forget the day that they all came in and sat in my living room. The first thing this Elder said to me was: "We have found some errors in the Bible." As soon as they said that; their agenda was made very clear - to get me off the Bible; and onto something else. In this case; it was Watchtower materials.

In your case; there has been on this forum very little difference. The first thing I read of what you were writing was: "I have found some errors in the Bible." It is not me saying anything; you yourself are making your agenda very clear. To denigrate the word of God in favor of a false gospel; for a false hope which absolutely no one can understand, except in the most confused sense there that exists. Many people over the course of history have lived and died by the entire Bible, which you continue to pick at and to dismantle into an abbreviated lip-service that gives no one anything but confusion.

[John317]

A Sketch of the Christian Experience and Views of Ellen G. White, Page 26

I saw that Satan was working through agents in a number of ways. He was at work through ministers who have rejected the truth, and are given over to strong delusions to believe a lie that they might be damned. While they were preaching or praying some would fall prostrate and helpless; not by the power of the Holy Ghost, but by the power of Satan breathed upon these agents, and through them to the people. Some professed Adventists who had rejected the present truth, while preaching, praying or in conversation used mesmerism to gain adherents, and the people would rejoice in this influence, for they thought it was the Holy Ghost. And even some that used it were so far in the darkness and deception of the Devil, that they thought it was the power of God, given them to exercise. They had made God altogether such an one as themselves, and had valued his power as a thing of naught.

Some of these agents of Satan were affecting the bodies of some of the saints; those that they could not deceive and draw away from the truth, by a Satanic influence. Oh, that all could get a view of it as God revealed it to me, that they might know more of the wiles of Satan, and be on their guard. I saw that Satan was at work in these ways to distract, deceive, and draw away God’s people, just now in this sealing time. I saw some who were not standing stiffly for present truth. Their knees were trembling, and their feet were sliding, because they were not firmly planted on the truth, and the covering of Almighty God could not be drawn over them while they were thus trembling.

[phkrause]

There is a third possibility-that Paul had been given the job to infiltrate THE WAY and intended to cause confusion thereby knowing that his work was about done so he went because he wanted a show down to end it.

Surprisingly, no one knows what happened to Paul after being taken away by the Romans. He could have been placed into a witness protection program.

You have to be kidding Dr Rich... That's nonsense. But your probably just being sarcasdic(sp)! Right?

[phkrause]

..How many Christians believe like you do John and Richard? Would you say the majority? Hmmm? That alone is a scarry thing is my opinion.

Dr. Rich I think if you really check into this, I think you'll see that we as SDA Christians are in the minority of how we believe in the Bible not the majority of the Christian world. Would you agree with that John and Richard.

[John317]

..How many Christians believe like you do John and Richard? Would you say the majority? Hmmm? That alone is a scarry thing is my opinion.

Originally Posted By: pkrause

Dr. Rich I think if you really check into this, I think you'll see that we as SDA Christians are in the minority of how we believe in the Bible not the majority of the Christian world. Would you agree with that John and Richard.

While it's probable that Dr. Rich is referring to the many books of the NT that he rejects, there's no question that Seventh-day Adventists are in the minority when it comes to some of the important teachings of Scripture. So the argument that SDAs believe things simply because we are joining a majority view is false on the basis of the clear facts of history and theology. If we were primarily concerned with conforming to the majority beliefs of other churches, we wouldn't believe as we do about the Sabbath, the non-immortality of the wicked, the Investigative Judgment, the mark of the beast, Christ as Michael the Archangel, etc.

But at the same time, it's nonsense to argue that we should jettison beliefs or books of the Bible simply because most Christians hold them to be true.

[Dr. Rich]

Overaged, yes, that was a bad thing for me to do and I do agree that both of them have written things that made me study and change my thinking--so ya, you are right. And just because we don't see eye to eye is not a good reason to make pot shots. Thanks Overaged for reminding me of this. It's good to have you around too.

[Dr. Rich]

John, while you made some good points and I do see your view as PK pointed out, it would appear that 144,000 would be about .0010 of all the Adventists today. I guess this is what I was thinking about.

[Overaged]

Overaged, yes, that was a bad thing for me to do and I do agree that both of them have written things that made me study and change my thinking--so ya, you are right. And just because we don't see eye to eye is not a good reason to make pot shots. Thanks Overaged for reminding me of this. It's good to have you around too.

Thanks. I also feel it is good to have you around! Don't you dare go away on us now - you hear?

[John317]

John, while you made some good points and I do see your view as PK pointed out, it would appear that 144,000 would be about .0010 of all the Adventists today. I guess this is what I was thinking about.

I don't believe we would be right to conclude that the 144,000 is a literal number. Neither the number nor the names of the tribes are literal. It's symbolic and spiritual. God isn't concerned with an exact number of people any more than He's concerned with whether someone has a fraction of Jewish blood in their veins. What God is concerned with is the spiritual condition of people's hearts and minds.

[Dr. Rich]

So the names of the 12 apostles as the stones for the foundation are just a symbol too I suppose. And I suppose the warning not to change anything in Rev. 22:18 and 19 are just symbols too?

Well then, perhaps the whole great tribulation is just a symbol?

Golly gee, what a jokster God must have been! How dare Him to trick us into believeing exactly what He told John to write so we could read it and hear and UNDERSTAND!---(not)

And there you go folks, that is the problem with prophecy--it can't be understood, so hey-lets just pretend they are all symbols for whatever. Lets just pretend it was placed in the NT in order to be a delightful spiritual story. It's really not real and besides, everyone knows your saved by grace anyway!

And why does Jesus have to come again anyway? Does not everyone go to heaven after they die? Why would Jesus come here if everyone is already in heaven? Has anyone every heard a pastor say during the funerial proceeding that "this person is now in hell"? I don't think so. After all, didn't Jesus come to this earth to die for everyone's sin? Then why worry? Revelation should have been left out of the NT. All it does is confuse people and make them worry.

I want it to be known right now that I, for one, totally believe what Jesus gave to John to write down was so imporatant to be understood, that he made sure to write the warning against changing anything or adding to or taking away. But hey, who the heck am I--as I am the dumbest person on this blog and have absolutly no authority to even be writing about what is found in the bible!

[Musicman1228]

Dr. Rich,

I think your practicing of 'irony' is lost on people that believe that the symbols in Revelation refer to other symbols. It is this practice that allows someone to invent their own interpretation of what these symbols mean, and gives rise to a myriad of individual understandings.

It is obvious to me that our friends on this forum ARE serious about the study of and the attempt to understand Revelation, they just don't know how to go about it in a way that promotes a consistent understanding. This is why there is so much argumentative rhetoric as they try to explain THEIR understanding to someone that is not coming from the same perspective as they. The fact that they don't have a set of guidelines that promote a consistent understanding is what is inhibiting them from gaining the insight that God promise would be made available to those who want to find the truth of end time prophecy. Just the fact that there are so many disparate understandings makes it painfully obvious that the method of interpretation now in use is deficient in it's application.

If we could find a way to integrate a unified set of guidelines into our interpretation of the symbols and timing of Revelation I believe we would all be able to independently come to a unified understanding. This would be supported by the promise that Jesus Christ made to His disciples that the Holy Spirit would guide them into ALL truth, and this within the His overarching desire for there to be unity within His Kingdom. Right now there is no unity of understanding because everyone feels that the Holy Spirit is leading them into different directions. TRUTH (in all forms) is singular and absolute. If we are not coming to a unified understanding of Truth then something is wrong with our concept of how the Holy Spirit operates.