Should we witness to smokers?

[Woody]

Quote:

"But when such ones form companionship with others who give themselves up to cheap conversation, and who indulge in smoking and in liquor drinking, they are lost unless they repent and become converted." Ellen White in 2SAT 286

Perhaps we should witness through the internet or phone instead of in person?

[WayneV]

Quote:

"But when such ones form companionship with others who give themselves up to cheap conversation, and who indulge in smoking and in liquor drinking, they are lost unless they repent and become converted." Ellen White in 2SAT 286

Perhaps we should witness through the internet or phone instead of in person?

Aren't those the riff-raff that Jesus fellow used to hang out with?

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

"But when such ones form companionship with others who give themselves up to cheap conversation, and who indulge in smoking and in liquor drinking, they are lost unless they repent and become converted." Ellen White in 2SAT 286

Perhaps we should witness through the internet or phone instead of in person?

I don't think she was talking about witnessing. There is an old adage "Show me a man's friends, and I will show you the man." I hear this saying in Spanish quite often although it is slightly different. Translated it says, "Tell me who you walk with and I'll tell you who you are."

In 12 step groups newcomers are often told to change their playmates and playgrounds. One that hangs out in a barber shop will eventually get a haircut. He who lives in a dump will soon smell like garbage.

[GreatLakesGramma]

It isn't possible to correctly understand a statement like that without considering the circumstances of the time in which it was written. Back then, smoking meant cigars, and no respectable woman would think of smoking. Some men did smoke at home, but when men got together to drink, gamble, and talk about things they would never discuss in the hearing or their wives, the room was usually full of cigar smoke as well.

She's saying this kind of gathering should not be a Christian's chosen form of entertainment.

[Woody]

I find it interesting to hear all the theories/legends/myths regarding anything Ellen White wrote. I for one don't claim to know the cultural impact of her writings. I don't claim to be able to get into her head and know for sure what she thought when she used the words she did.

But, I do find it totally amusing to read from those who do. Some of it may be true. I have no doubt. Some of it may be false. I guess I just wouldn't stake my salvation of one certain interpretation. For I see that each one ... has to try to reword and insert wordings to fit their theories.

[Dr. Shane]

One of the 12 step groups I go to has a book that was published in 1939. They have a dictionary also published in 1939 so that when they question the use of a word in the book they can look it up in a dictionary published the same year. Anyone wanting to understand something written several years ago, needs to understand the context in order to grasp the meaning.

[GreatLakesGramma]

Woody, I have read enough stories written in that era to get what I feel is a reasonable understanding of how things were back then, and also of the way they expressed ideas back then that is different than we do now.

[GreatLakesGramma]

If you aren't willing to consider those differences, then you are always going to have problems with what she wrote.

[Dr. Shane]

Not only what she wrote, but from what most anyone from that period of time wrote. When we read historic documents we have to understand the language and culture of the time in order to understand the documents. Try reading the Federalist Papers without a dictionary from that time.

[GreatLakesGramma]

Shane, I agree with you, but I wasn't referring to problems with the wording, but to problems with the message and the messenger.

[John317]

I find it interesting to hear all the theories/legends/myths regarding anything Ellen White wrote. I for one don't claim to know the cultural impact of her writings. I don't claim to be able to get into her head and know for sure what she thought when she used the words she did.

Ellen White's writings are similar to the Bible in that we need the Holy Spirit to understand them, and without the Holy Spirit, they will seem as so much babble and nonsense. Jesus said we will know whether his teaching is from God or not if we are willing to obey His commandments. He didn't say we will know and understand it if we have all the wisdom of the world or if we are really intelligent. If people don't want the truth, they won't understand what the Bible or Ellen White are talking about. It's the Holy Spirit who teaches those who are humble and willing to listen and obey. Daniel 12: 10 says,

Many shall purify themselves and make themselves white and be refined, but the wicked shall act wickedly. And none of the wicked shall understand, but those who are wise shall understand.

NOTE: Those who are spiritually wise understand because the Holy Spirit teaches them. The Holy Spirit doesn't teach the wicked. For the wicked who are untaught by the Spirit, the propehcies are all hogwash and lot of confusion.

[Woody]

I don't really find it necessary to do all the reasearch to discover what each one of her millions of words might have meant.

Her purpose was to point us to Christ ... and as long as I get that from her ... I am fine. And I do. So, I will go to the scriptures. And I will do what is necessary to understand them. That alone is a handful without understanding every dot + tittle from Ellen White.

[Dr. Shane]

We can't have it both ways. We can't criticize her for the way she worded sentences or thoughts and then say we don't need know what the words she used meant when she used them. She was a prophet of God. She had divine visions and dreams. She spoke with angels. She is not exactly someone we want to trivialize and tuck away on a shelf.

[GreatLakesGramma]

I don't really find it necessary to do all the reasearch to discover what each one of her millions of words might have meant.

Then quit nitpicking at her writings. If you don't care to understand them in the context of the customs and language of the time, quit posting them here and ridiculing them under the pretense of trying to understand them.

[Woody]

Ha Ha. I will continue to assume they mean as written. But, I'm not going to go through all the cultural research to determine another person's theory as to what they mean. After all ... I can post them here and you will provide your cultural theory as to what they mean. I'm the question man and you guys are the answer men and women. I'll let you guys do the nit picking with all the possible explanation to approve your pet beliefs.

Makes for an interesting combination.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Woody

I don't really find it necessary to do all the reasearch to discover what each one of her millions of words might have meant.

Then quit nitpicking at her writings. If you don't care to understand them in the context of the customs and language of the time, quit posting them here and ridiculing them under the pretense of trying to understand them.

Amen!

I too am tired of this charade, that is little more than a thinly veiled attack on the SOP.

[John317]

I too am tired of this charade, that is little more than a thinly veiled attack on the SOP.

Yes, very thinly veiled; in fact, obvious to me from the get-go. The same kinds of posts have been made on other Adventist forums as well as Club Adventist Forum a good number of times before. For instance, the question was asked whether we should even have or ride bicycles because of statements that Ellen White made. It is posting SOP statements without any kind of context and in a way that makes it appear unreasonable and extreme. Then the claim is made that it's difficult or impossible to know exactly what Ellen White meant in her writings.

In my opinion, it looks like an attempt to rationalize not paying attention and obeying what God inpired Ellen White to write to the church. It seems to me that it is the same kind of rationalization that we see when people deny that anyone obeys God's commandments or that when they claim that everyone practices willful and deliberate sin. I see these two arguments as related.

[Twilight]

There is definitely a pattern here, that is for sure.

Negative posts couched in "positivity" when challenged.

[BSW]

Quote:

There are young people in this place for whom I have felt a great burden. I have talked with them. I have said to them, "God has designed that you should become members of the royal family, children of the heavenly King. In the name of the Lord you may perfect Christian characters. You are members of Christ’s body. He died for you, and He has in heaven a crown laid up for you, if you will be an overcomer." {2SAT 286.3}

But some for whom I have been burdened have placed themselves in positions where it was difficult for them to keep the love of the truth. They formed associations with other youth who in their words and actions manifested objectionable traits of character. They lost a sense of what God requires of them, and what He longs to do for them. Oh, if they had but followed on to know the Lord, they might have known that His going forth was prepared as the morning. I tried to encourage them. But when such ones form companionship with others who give themselves up to cheap conversation, and who indulge in smoking and in liquor drinking, they are lost unless they repent and become converted. {2SAT 286.4}

This is more of the burden on her heart... as anyone might see.

Quote:

Perhaps we should witness through the internet or phone instead of in person?

It has absolutely NOTHING to do with witnessing, but counsel for our youth. Pretty reasonable counsel to me. As a matter of fact I don't think you would have to be a prophet to make these recommendations.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I don't really find it necessary to do all the reasearch to discover what each one of her millions of words might have meant.

Originally Posted By: GreatLakesGramma

Then quit nitpicking at her writings. If you don't care to understand them in the context of the customs and language of the time, quit posting them here and ridiculing them under the pretense of trying to understand them.

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Amen!

I too am tired of this charade, that is little more than a thinly veiled attack on the SOP.

I don't know that it's so much an *attack,* than it is *game-playing*...

But, yeah, I'm tired of it, too.

[Woody]

Well ... I hope you all get it figured out. HA HA

The question remains.

[John317]

I think the answer is that whether someone smokes or not isn't the determing factor as to whether we should witness to them about Christ. Ellen White was talking about members of the church who had already heard the truth about those things but who persisted in doing them anyway.

She wasn't talking about people in the world who hadn't heard the gospel or the Third Angels Messages.

We have to remember that in the early years of the movement, people would go out of the church to smoke during breaks in the meetings. This was at a time when people were just beginning to realize that smoking was harmful to their health. In those days, incredible as it sounds today, there were some doctors who prescribed smoking for problems with the lungs.

[John317]

HA HA

I understand.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Originally Posted By: Woody

HA HA

I understand.

I do, too.

[phkrause]

I do, too.

I do, too, too. :)