Should we witness to smokers?

[John317]

...seems to me like we kinda have some cheap conversation and partyer type mentality going on here at times.

Care to give some examples? No need to give names but just examples of what you mean.

[John317]

... But my point is, whether or not Woody is disingenuous is beside the point and just evading addressing the harder question.

I think it's very much the point.

Originally Posted By: Rom Wetmore

EGW is a problem for many Adventists. But most of the EGW apologists do more harm than good in addressing the serious questions and concerns that honest and sincere people have about her and her writings.

How would you go about addressing the serious questions and concerns regarding Ellen White?

I notice you speak here of the concerns of honest and sincere people. It seems to me this shows it should be relevant to you and to us whether someone is being sincere and honest about their concerns in regard to Ellen White.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

There is definitely a pattern here, that is for sure.

Negative posts couched in "positivity" when challenged.

Isn't this what Ellen White does?

She states all the things that god will reject you for and then says, "but God loves you."

Have you ever considered that Adventist tend to focus on the negative because Ellen White does?

A loving God warns us of the consequences of our actions.

Ellen White had the same Spirit guiding her.

Perfectly loving behaviour.

Unless of course you think it more loving not to warn a child that is about to put its hand in the fire, that it will get burnt?

:-)

[Tom Wetmore]

It's a matter of giving half-truths and dropping lines here and there that cause people to doubt and question Ellen White's dependability and honesty. This is exactly what Satan did in heaven and what Ellen White said Dr. Kellogg did in regard to the Lord's messenger...

Really!?!?

This seems to suggest to me part of the problem. If we take your comparison exactly as you have written it, you are framing Woody as playing the same role as Satan and EGW in the place of God being accused. OK... Woody is not that bad. He is not the devil. And EGW is not that good. She is not God.

The problem with questioning EGW is this reaction that to question her is to question God. As I have said before, lip service is given to her not being infallible or her writings not being the result of verbal inspiration; but all defense of her writings don't allow for the possibility of mistake and all her words are regarded as holy words direct from the lips of God.

[Twilight]

Woody is not that bad. He is not the devil.

But he could very well, by his actions be promoting satans cause...

Intentionally or unintenionally. :-)

[Tom Wetmore]

Or so could you... And yes even EGW could have as well. Prophets are not perfect, sinless beings. They are human. They make mistakes.

[Twilight]

Or so could you... And yes even EGW could have as well. Prophets are not perfect, sinless beings. They are human. They make mistakes.

Indeed satan can use each of us.

But we are talking consistent negative behaviour, not one off slips that all of us are vulnerable to.

This is a concerted effort on Woody's part to diminish the Spirit of Prophecy.

Those that reject the SOP will of course support him in his efforts.

May I ask you, as you are defending his activity it seems, where do you stand on the SOP Tom?

[Stan]

making a mistake is being used by satan?

[Tom Wetmore]

Apparently it is on a slippery strawman slope...

[Twilight]

making a mistake is being used by satan?

I am surpised you asked this Stan.

Christians are led into sin by the enemy.

When they are tempted, they sin.

So an occassional slip is understandable.

But a continous slip, do you think that is the same thing?

Is this a genuine question you are asking, as I am bemused by it to be honest?

[Twilight]

Or do you think that when you sin, Satan had nothing to do with it Stan?

[Tom Wetmore]

I am surpised you asked this Stan.

Christians are led into sin by the enemy.

When they are tempted, they sin.

So an occassional slip is understandable.

But a continous slip, do you think that is the same thing?

Is this a genuine question you are asking, as I am bemused by it to be honest?

So now Stan is suspect as not asking an honest question!?!?!

What about you?

But back to the question at hand...

You are confusing "mistake" with "sin".

To make a mistake is not a sin. Otherwise you have sinned greatly by your mistaken understanding of what I actually said.

Now of course if you intentionally twisted or distorted or misrepresented what I said to further your point or agenda, that would fit the definition of "bearing false witness" against me. The last time I checked that was still considered to be a sin according to the Bible.

[Tom Wetmore]

Or do you think that when you sin, Satan had nothing to do with it Stan?

I think that more often than most folk are willing to admit, Satan doesn't have to do much, if anything, to get people to sin. Most folk are pretty good self-starters in that department.

Are you old enough to remember Flip Wilson's comedy routine, "The devil made me do it!"? Here is an interesting perspective - Flip Wilson Theology

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

I am surpised you asked this Stan.

Christians are led into sin by the enemy.

When they are tempted, they sin.

So an occassional slip is understandable.

But a continous slip, do you think that is the same thing?

Is this a genuine question you are asking, as I am bemused by it to be honest?

So now Stan is suspect as not asking an honest question!?!?!

What about you?

But back to the question at hand...

You are confusing "mistake" with "sin".

To make a mistake is not a sin. Otherwise you have sinned greatly by your mistaken understanding of what I actually said.

Now of course if you intentionally twisted or distorted or misrepresented what I said to further your point or agenda, that would fit the definition of "bearing false witness" against me. The last time I checked that was still considered to be a sin according to the Bible.

I will ask Stan to answer the question.

I did not state dishonesty on his part.

[Gerr]

I think that more often than most folk are willing to admit, Satan doesn't have to do much, if anything, to get people to sin. Most folk are pretty good self-starters in that department.

ESV | Jas 1:14 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

And attacking and questioning the attitude, honesty, morality of those raising such questions and concerns is just one of the harms.

I don't think anyone here is questioning anyone's morality and honesty simply for raising questions and concerns about Ellen White. As I said before, it is necessary that everyone study her for themselves and ask many pointed questions that concern them.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Or do you think that when you sin, Satan had nothing to do with it Stan?

I think that more often than most folk are willing to admit, Satan doesn't have to do much, if anything, to get people to sin. Most folk are pretty good self-starters in that department.

Are you old enough to remember Flip Wilson's comedy routine, "The devil made me do it!"? Here is an interesting perspective - Flip Wilson Theology

I've changed my mind.

Twilight is Satan. LOL

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: John317

I don't think anyone here is questioning anyone's morality and honesty simply for raising questions and concerns about Ellen White. As I said before, it is necessary that everyone study her for themselves and ask many pointed questions that concern them.

Of course you are. Instead of addressing the issues you project your own judgments on people's motives and influence. (e.g. Satan)

And when you are called on this you claim ignorance when all you have to do is go back through the posts on this topic.

Originally Posted By: John317

But what we are talking about here are persons who don't post such questions straight forwardly, but rather they do what Antony did in his speech about Brutus before the Romans. Since your work requires you to closely analyze language and people's speech, I'm sure you understand what I'm referring to. It's a matter of speaking out of both sides of their mouths. It's saying, "Ellen White is our prophet and we must always obey what she says (if only anyone could be sure of what she says). Ellen White had such good advice to give (such as not eating meat, which, by the way, she ate often, including oysters)."

Well, they are trying to keep her in the prophet category and still be honest about what she actually says. I couldn't do that and I tried. The evidence simply is not there. That is why I have come to believe that she is not a prophet, but is, at best, someone who was deluded and, at worst, was a liar and con artist. She is probably somewhere in between.

Originally Posted By: John317

It's a matter of giving half-truths and dropping lines here and there that cause people to doubt and question Ellen White's dependability and honesty. This is exactly what Satan did in heaven and what Ellen White said Dr. Kellogg did in regard to the Lord's messenger. It is also what she said would be done more and more often as we draw closer to Christ's coming. Instead of people being straight forward about their viewpoints, they often couch their true beliefs in speech that indicates they believe just the opposite of the surface meaning. It's related to the rhetorical device, irony.

This is exactly what Ellen White did to her critics. She basically retreated to accusing everyone who challenged her as being under Satan's influence.

Originally Posted By: John317

People have a right to do this on the Forum, but we also have a right to comment and make observations about it.

This is an example of a half truth you are talking about.

Who is restricting your right to comment? You obviously are commenting right now.

What you are really saying is that if someone questions what you believe or say then they are restricting your right to comment.

That's a misrepresentation and a dishonest statement. It has nothing to do with the facts.

It is obvious to me that you are unable to meet the questions head on.

You always seem so angry with God, the bible, Ellen White and anyone who disagrees with you Cardw.

I do not think this is very positive for you.

Why are you so angry?

If I am reading you right of course.

[cardw]

You always seem so angry with God, the bible, Ellen White and anyone who disagrees with you Cardw.

I do not think this is very positive for you.

Why are you so angry?

If I am reading you right of course.

Here you go again. Nothing about the topic or issue.

It has to be about whether I'm angry or whether this is positive for me or whether Satan is using me or some tangent that has nothing to do with the evidence I present.

For once confront the problems and the evidence without asking me to post it again. Simply read the problems I outlined and address them if you can.

That's all I want.

[Dr. Shane]

You are confusing "mistake" with "sin".

Everything I do is either sin or righteousness. I don't normally mistakenly do righteousness. I do often times mistakenly sin. Satan works hard on me to cause be to make such mistakes. When I purposely sin, that is not a mistake. However, often times, I sin unintentionally. Those are mistakes.

[doug yowell]

I think that more often than most folk are willing to admit, Satan doesn't have to do much, if anything, to get people to sin. Most folk are pretty good self-starters in that department.

Would that generally include Christians also? Are you suggesting that Satan rarely needs to use temptation in order to "encourage" us to sin? Or does that mainly apply to those not yet indwelt by the Holy Spirit?

[John317]

It's a matter of giving half-truths and dropping lines here and there that cause people to doubt and question Ellen White's dependability and honesty. This is exactly what Satan did in heaven and what Ellen White said Dr. Kellogg did in regard to the Lord's messenger...

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

Really!?!?

Yes. Absolutely.

Originally Posted By: John3:17

This seems to suggest to me part of the problem. If we take your comparison exactly as you have written it, you are framing Woody as playing the same role as Satan and EGW in the place of God being accused. OK... Woody is not that bad. He is not the devil. And EGW is not that good. She is not God.

I'm sure you've heard of people "playing the devil's advocate." Do people have to be the devil to do this? Then why would it be necessary for someone to be the devil to speak in the devil's behalf? Lots of people speak in the devil's behalf (whether they realize it or not). Christ said Peter was speaking in the devil's behalf. Did Christ mean that Peter was the devil? No. And neither am I saying it.

So, for my statement above to be true, it is not necessary for Woody to be the Devil and for Ellen White to be God. That is a false comparison. Ellen White did not say Dr. Kellogg was the Devil, and neither am I saying Woody is the Devil. And no, Ellen White was certainly not God, although God did use her as his mouthpiece.

[John317]

I think that more often than most folk are willing to admit, Satan doesn't have to do much, if anything, to get people to sin. Most folk are pretty good self-starters in that department.

This is quite true. Humans are already in the habit of sinning and rebelling. So if Satan were to die today, fallen humans would continue to sin and rebel. That much is true. However, the Bible teaches that Satan has a plan to defeat Christ and he is here to get everyone that he can to side with him in the Great Controversy. In other words, it is not merely a matter of sinning but of choosing to side with the devil against Christ.

There are those who actually work to persuade people to oppose Christ and his prophets and to work in league with Satan. And some of these are members of God's church. Satan has his agents inside the church.

The Bible also has the following important teaching, which we all do well to understand and obey:

Ephes. 6:12-14

For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places. [13] Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand firm. [14] Stand therefore, having fastened on the belt of truth, and having put on the breastplate of righteousness,

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

Are you old enough to remember Flip Wilson's comedy routine, "The devil made me do it!"? Here is an interesting perspective - Flip Wilson Theology

Yes.

Who do you think profits or benefits from making fun of the idea that Satan is alive and well and gets people to do evil?

What is the influence of this kind of joking? Its effect generally is to make people take Satan's work less seriously-- or even to dimiss it altogether-- and to ridicule the idea that Satan presents thoughts and ideas to people's minds.

Having said that, it is no excuse to say "the Devil made me do it," because the truth is the Devil can't make genuine believes in Christ do anything. But he can make people do things after they have allowed themselves to be controlled by him. He is able to do this with people who have been baptized but who have slipped back into serving the devil. Judas was a follower of Christ who had been baptized, but because of his wrong habits and thinking, he allowed Satan to take control and to possess him, and consequently he lost his salvation.

What does the Scripture say?

1 John 3:1-10

See what kind of love the Father has given to us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are. The reason why the world does not know us is that it did not know him. [2] Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is. [3] And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure.

[4] Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. [5] You know that he appeared to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. [6] No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. [7] Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. [8] Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. [9] No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. [10] By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

[John317]

I don't think anyone here is questioning anyone's morality and honesty simply for raising questions and concerns about Ellen White. As I said before, it is necessary that everyone study her for themselves and ask many pointed questions that concern them.

Originally Posted By: cardw

Of course you are. Instead of addressing the issues you project your own judgments on people's motives and influence. (e.g. Satan)

And when you are called on this you claim ignorance when all you have to do is go back through the posts on this topic.

No, I am not questioning anyone's morality simply for raising questions and concerns about Ellen White. Those questions must be faced and dealt with honestly and sincerely.

Nor am I projecting my own judgments on people's motives and influence. All you have to do is read the posts of the people we're discussing. These are posts not only on this Forum but on a number of other Adventist Forums. Anyone who has experience understanding the English language can see what is being said. They sometimes became so obvious that many other people commented on it. It doesn't require an English professor to see the signifance of the language being used.

If I tell you that "we should listen to and follow Ellen White" and then in the same breath say that no one can be sure of what she means, it is obvious that those words are not encouraging people to listen to and follow Ellen White's counsels. Many examples of these kinds of remarks can be given.

I think it's telling that opponents of Ellen White defend the use of this tactic.

[John317]

It's a matter of giving half-truths and dropping lines here and there that cause people to doubt and question Ellen White's dependability and honesty. This is exactly what Satan did in heaven and what Ellen White said Dr. Kellogg did in regard to the Lord's messenger...

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

The problem with questioning EGW is this reaction that to question her is to question God.

Where have I indicated in the above that to question anything in regard to Ellen White is the same as questioning God? I never intended to give this meaning, and I don't see it anywhere in my statement.

Before people come to a knowledge of who Ellen White was and to have confidence in her prophet gift, there is certainly nothing wrong in asking those kinds of questions you refer to. In fact, it is necessary to ask them in order to understand the answers.

It is the same with the Bible. The truth has nothing to fear from those questions, and this applies to Ellen White as well as to the Scriptures. However, it is one thing to ask questions and present issues straightforwardly, and it is something altogether different to make it appear that one strongly supports Ellen White's prophetic gift while one's actual words are a clear denial of it.

I think it's important for us to realize what Satan's tactics were in the rebellion in heaven because we know that Satan uses the same tactics on earth. Ellen White warned us that Satan will use those same deceptive strategies more and more the closer we come to the time of the end.

Please consider the following statements by Ellen White:

"I saw that in striking against the visions they did not strike against the worm-- the feeble instrument that God spake through-- but against the Holy Ghost. I saw it was a small thing to speak against the instrument, but it was dangerous to slight the words of God." (1 SM 40)

Ellen White said that Christ Himself told her, "Be not afraid of man, for my shield shall protect you. It is not you that speaketh: it is the Lord that giveth the messages of warning and reproof. Never deviate from the truth under any circumstances. Give the light I shall give you. The messages for these last days shall be written in books, and shall stand immortalized, to testify against those who have once rejoiced in the light, but who have been led to give it up because of the seductive influences of evil." (1 SM 32)

The above are the words of Christ. Seventh-day Adventists who understand who Ellen White was and what purpose she served should take those words over any human's words.

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

As I have said before, lip service is given to her not being infallible or her writings not being the result of verbal inspiration; but all defense of her writings don't allow for the possibility of mistake and all her words are regarded as holy words direct from the lips of God.

Only God Himself in infallible. Paul and Peter and James and Elijah and Moses and the prophet Nathan were not infallible. When not directly under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, all of those men made mistakes and sinned.

The fact that God did not inspire prophets verbally is no excuse to lay aside or ignore their writings. The same principle applies to Ellen White.

In relationship to the subject under discussion here, what "possibility of a mistake" in her words do you want to consider?