Should we ignore some churches and peoples?

[Woody]

This came from another thread where I was beginning to be off topic ... the dreaded sin. So, let's talk here about the need to give up on people or organizations and just pretend they do not exist.

Below is my post that got this started. Let us know what you think:

"The First Day Adventists are a class that are the most difficult to reach. They will generally reject the truth, as did the Jews. We should, as far as possible, go forward as though there were not such a people in existence. They are the elements of confusion. Immoralities exist among them to a fearful extent. It would be the greatest calamity to have many of their members embrace the truth. They would have to unlearn everything and learn anew, or they would cause us great trouble. There are occasions when their glaring misrepresentations will have to be met. When this is the case, it should be done promptly and briefly and then pass on to our work. " 13 MR 346

I think it's pretty clear here that we are to pretend "there were not such a people in existence" or you might use the word "ignore".

While on this side bar .... There are other examples of ignoring:

"since you ignored all my advice and would not accept my rebuke, I in turn will laugh at your disaster .... Then they will call to me but I will not answer" Prov. 1: 24-31

And from Ellen White ...

I saw that the stewards of the Lord have no duty to help those persons who persist in using tobacco, tea, and coffee." 1 T 225

So it is clear that we are to ignore both entire church organizations and their people ... and also those individuals who ignore and reject our health message.

[Gordon1]

Woody, what about sports fans?

Do you see any hope for them?

[Woody]

No. They are far beyond hope.

For one thing ... they are human and do not obey as they should.

And btw ... we are ALL in the same boat. Sinners who do not obey as they should.

We are thus SINNERS in the need of a Saviour.

As for me ... I am chief of sinners. But I do know where I am going. And Praise God for that. His mercy is ever lasting.

However Gordon ... Sports Fans are not on the exclusion list presented by our prophet. So you can keep workin' with us. lol

[Nan]

But a First Adventist sports fan who smokes ...?

I guess the whole tenor of the discussion could be summed

up in not casting your pearls before swine.

[phkrause]

Woody, what about sports fans?

Do you see any hope for them?

SPORTS fans? why pick on them? There are many worse things!!

[Woody]

Quote:

But a First Adventist sports fan who smokes ...?

Now that just might be over the limit.

But she also states that Faithfulness in tithe paying is a condition to answered prayers. See Ellen White in COL 144 -

Quote:

"But if we withhold from Him that which is His own, how can we claim His blessing? If we are unfaithful stewards of earthly things, how can we expect Him to entrust us with the things of heaven? It may be that here is the secret of unanswered prayer." Ellen White in COL 144

Before praying for the sick ... "We should first find out if the sick one has been withholding tithes" Ellen White in HL 237

Now that would really be over the limit if you didn't pay tithe.

We might as well answer our own prayers:

Quote:

"After we have offered our petitions, we are to answer them ourselves" . Ellen White in ML 19

[phkrause]

They will generally reject the truth, as did the Jews.

First I'd like to say that that statement is not true Woody. Unless you are saying that Jesus replaces the word "truth". Because the Jews did not reject the truth that they had been being taught for many years. They did however reject the truth about Jesus, that I know is true. Second if you are saying that "truth" and Jesus are interchanged here than does the "First Day Adventists believe in Jesus? If they do than they also are not rejecting truth as stated that way. But if you are saying the truth the way the Bible states it than yes they are rejecting "truth". But to answer your question I'd say no, we should not ignore any churches or people.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Woody

They will generally reject the truth, as did the Jews.

First I'd like to say that that statement is not true Woody. Unless you are saying that Jesus replaces the word "truth". Because the Jews did not reject the truth that they had been being taught for many years. They did however reject the truth about Jesus, that I know is true. Second if you are saying that "truth" and Jesus are interchanged here than does the "First Day Adventists believe in Jesus? If they do than they also are not rejecting truth as stated that way. But if you are saying the truth the way the Bible states it than yes they are rejecting "truth". But to answer your question I'd say no, we should not ignore any churches or people.

[phkrause]

So I'm guessing that EGW made that statement? I was not saying you were wrong just that the statement was wrong! Depending what she meant would be my question. Again is she stating that the truth is replacing the name of Jesus than yes. Or maybe the statement is being pulled out of the bigger picture that would put a better perspective on what was meant.

[Woody]

So I'm guessing that EGW made that statement? I was not saying you were wrong just that the statement was wrong! Depending what she meant would be my question. Again is she stating that the truth is replacing the name of Jesus than yes. Or maybe the statement is being pulled out of the bigger picture that would put a better perspective on what was meant.

That would be a correct guess pk. The words were in quotes and the reference was given as 13 MR 346. It's my habit to try to add "Ellen White in .... " so that the reader who is not familiar with such references can know. But I failed this time so that may have been your problem.

And I am sympathetic to your difficulty of determining what our prophet intended. At times I think it is impossbile for a non-biased reader to do so. Just look up the quote and read all around it. You might just be more confused for doing that ... but give it a try.

BTW ... this points out the need to clarify with the author of the words we read before jumping in and saying we disagree. I think you kind of tried to clarify it. But whether it's EGW or just a poster here ... we need to clarify clarify clarify. That would provide much less conflict here.

When someone here says that "I" (me personally ) believes something ... it is usually dead wrong. And I don't believe it as they have described. The same thing goes for EGW ... People often say EGW states this ... xyz ... when in reality ... she really does not. We have much to learn in our writing styles.

Okay ... off the side bar and back on topic. lol

[WayneV]

I heard someone on my local Christian radio station refer to this as "'stick your head in the sand' theology". Interesting concept.

[Dr. Shane]

Indeed, there is a time we need to dust off our sandals and move on. I have tried to carry the gospel to many people who would not hear me. So I move on. That is not to say that God has given up on them but that God will need to find someone else to reach them.

This attitude really has brought me a lot of peace. It is really about "Live And Let Live".

[Dr. Shane]

Again is she stating that the truth is replacing the name of Jesus than yes.

That is how I read it. Jesus is the Truth and the Life which the Jews rejected. In their rejection they said, "We have no king but Caesar."

[cardw]

Quote:

I saw that the stewards of the Lord have no duty to help those persons who persist in using tobacco, tea, and coffee." 1 T 225

So it is clear that we are to ignore both entire church organizations and their people ... and also those individuals who ignore and reject our health message.

This is why I believe that Ellen White was more of a bigot and nag than prophet.

In my world if the worst thing that people did was use tobacco, drink tea, and drink coffee it would be a pretty nice world.

This is just plain mean spirited. I call Ellen White "Our Lady of Eternal Responsibility." She has such a long list of things that we are rejected for that it simply keeps everyone in shame all the time. This is why Adventism and religion in general are so destructive.

[phkrause]

That is how I read it. Jesus is the Truth and the Life which the Jews rejected. In their rejection they said, "We have no king but Caesar."

Than I agree with that statement. That's why I like to see the whole context of a statement, otherwise we can make it sound a lot different than it actually was intended. Thanks Shane

[Woody]

Quote:

I saw that the stewards of the Lord have no duty to help those persons who persist in using tobacco, tea, and coffee." 1 T 225

So it is clear that we are to ignore both entire church organizations and their people ... and also those individuals who ignore and reject our health message.

This is why I believe that Ellen White was more of a bigot and nag than prophet.

In my world if the worst thing that people did was use tobacco, drink tea, and drink coffee it would be a pretty nice world.

This is just plain mean spirited. I call Ellen White "Our Lady of Eternal Responsibility." She has such a long list of things that we are rejected for that it simply keeps everyone in shame all the time. This is why Adventism and religion in general are so destructive.

Well ... you do make some interesting observations for us to think about.

[Dr. Shane]

Not me. I don't feel in shame. I feel rescued. I feel forgiven. I feel loved.

[Woody]

That's great for you Shane. But still cardw has indicated different feelings ... quite the opposite of your's and we need to think about and consider his experience. Certainly we need to make an attempt to understand how he got there.

[aldona]

Quote:

I saw that the stewards of the Lord have no duty to help those persons who persist in using tobacco, tea, and coffee." 1 T 225

You have inspired me to start an "EGW Quote of the Day" website. That will be the first featured quote.

The next one will be:

Quote:

Every hour squandered over the toilet should reprove them for leaving the intellect to lie waste. 4 T 643

We could start a contest to see who can come up with the most petty instruction. Is any topic too small to escape the notice of Our Lady?

(And by the way, when our new church building was looking for a name 2 years ago, I actually submitted "Shrine of Our Lady of Eternal Responsibility", inspired by cardw, and it was listed on the official list of suggestions by the church board. I'm still here and haven't been excommunicated, so it can't have been too bad.)

AJ

[Dr. Shane]

Richard (cardw) has everything we have. His past is likely different and it has probably scarred him. We cannot control how he reacts to the events of his past. He decides to either accept or reject our message and his decision will not be based on how well we understand his feelings. I can sympathize with him and others in similar situations. But that doesn't change the Bible and the Bible is what we have to offer. If he doesn't want it, we can't force it on him and we certainly should not try to somehow manipulate him into accepting it. There comes a time when we have to dust off our sandals and move on. There are others eager to accept our message and when we spend time with those that reject it, we deny it to those waiting for us to bring it to them.

[Dr. Shane]

You have inspired me to start an "EGW Quote of the Day" website. That will be the first featured quote.

What would be the purpose of such a site? Would it bring glory to God? Will it bring believers closer to their Lord? Is it the best use of your time? Having done it, will Jesus say to you, "well done, good and faithful servant"?

[jasd]

QR frame:

I saw that the stewards of the Lord have no duty to help those persons who persist in using tobacco, tea, and coffee." 1 T 225

Well, what about chocolate, which contains caffeine, or the vegetables of the nightshade family, which contain nicotine?

Sounds like theology-by-degrees... Either one should not imbibe or one is permitted. What’s with this,

“Oh, a little bit is okay...?”

Should that obtain, then to what limits might one go, in any matter, whilst yet remaining in “the truth”?--(we weren’t fornicating – just a little bit of lust and some heavy ‘petting’....)

Awfully willowy fundamentals, eh?

>>...we have to dust off our sandals<<

I thought down there Tejas way – one dusted off huaraches, no? :-o

[GreatLakesGramma]

Quote:

Every hour squandered over the toilet should reprove them for leaving the intellect to lie waste. 4 T 643

We could start a contest to see who can come up with the most petty instruction. Is any topic too small to escape the notice of Our Lady?

In choosing that quote, did you stop to think what the word toilet meant at that time? It didn't mean the same as it means now, that's for sure. It comes from a French word that means "small cloth, doily, dressing table," and the only English usage I have ever seen for the word in all the stories I've read from that era meant "the act or process of dressing or grooming oneself, including bathing and arranging the hair: to make one's toilet; busy at her toilet." (definitions are from dictionary.com)

Thus she was referring to the time women and girls spent primping in front of the mirror beyond what was necessary for good grooming. Back in her time, most upper class girls and women were more concerned about their appearance and social standing than about anything practical or spiritual, or that would be helpful to anyone other than themselves. I agree with her on that one.

[John317]

I guess the whole tenor of the discussion could be summed

up in not casting your pearls before swine.

This is exactly it. Ellen White, as the Bible, doesn't encourage us to spend lots of time working with people who've known the truth and rejected it. Her advice is to move on to people who've never yet heard the truth instead of giving one's time and strength to talking with people who've got their minds made up to reject it. We could spend all our life trying to persuade them and in the meantime many others who are hungering and thirsting for truth would be lost because we're neglecting them in order to throw the pearls before swine.

Titus 3:9-11

But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless. [10] As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him, [11] knowing that such a person is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.

Matthew 18:17

If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

[cardw]

Not me. I don't feel in shame. I feel rescued. I feel forgiven. I feel loved.