Should we ignore some churches and peoples?

[phkrause]

Wow- I guess it must be the work of some to put EGW in the worst possible light that they can!

I think that common sense would tell us that if a person persists in a behaviour then they are either holding on to it or not yet convicted of it. That is their choice and we can allow them that freedom. To continue to bring up the matter would be wasted breath and probably not wise use of timing. I don't know of anyone who likes to be nagged!

And to add to that, "but still be friends with them."

[Gordon1]

Why do you keep posting things like this???

Hi Pam,

Have you ever owned a television?

Woody is sports fan - you know - baseball, football - beer and cheerleaders. Enormous advertising budgets.

No one can watch even a little without being affected.

[John317]

I did not know that these verses are talking about health message!!!! AMAZING! Thank you for interpreting these for me.

Of course those verses don't have to do with the health message. But the principle is the same: when people have heard the message and have determined to reject it, don't keep urging them to accept it but go on to tell those who haven't heard it yet.

For instance, I studied the Watchtower beliefs for over a year and decided to reject it. There's nothing more they can say that would cause me to accept it. They would be wasting their time trying to present their false message to me. They might as well leave me alone and go on to others who haven't yet heard their message, because there's no chance that I will accept the Jehovah Witnesses false doctrines.

Does that mean the Jehovah Witnesses hate me or shouldn't be helpful to me if I need help? Of course not. It just means they recognize the fact that I'm not going to accept their message no matter how much they might stand at my door nagging me. I'm a waste of their time. That doesn't mean, though, that we don't talk and aren't friendly.

We can apply this same principle to the Advent Message or the Health Message (which is part of the Three Angels Messages). It seems to me that's what Ellen White is talking about.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Originally Posted By: rudywoofs

Why do you keep posting things like this???

Hi Pam,

Have you ever owned a television?

Woody is sports fan - you know - baseball, football - beer and cheerleaders. Enormous advertising budgets.

No one can watch even a little without being affected.

So....what's your point??? (I didn't know Woody drank beer... )

BTW, I've watched TV ever since Howdy Doody was on. So did my brother. TV did not affect me or my brother. BUT, TV is a lot different these days...no class to the programs at all. Violence, sex, and language that would make a sailor blush. Where's Yogi Bear, Huckleberry Hound, Quick Draw McGraw, The Flintstones, Bonanza, Mr. Ed, I Love Lucy, Topper, Gilligan's Island, Green Acres, Beverly Hillbillies, It's About Time, Star Trek, Perry Mason, Here Come the Brides, F Troop, and Bullwinkle, when you need them?

[fccool]

Originally Posted By: fccool

I did not know that these verses are talking about health message!!!! AMAZING! Thank you for interpreting these for me.

Of course those verses don't have to do with the health message. But the principle is the same: when people have heard the message and have determined to reject it, don't keep urging them to accept it but go on to tell those who haven't heard it yet.

But that's not the context of that passage! The context is not providing financial support to poor people who disagree on the matter of drinking coffee, tea, or using tobacco. Thus, if they continue using it, then our Christian duty to help them out our financial means dissipates... because they are not willing to conform to our standards.

You can read it here:

http://www.gilead.net/egw/books/testimonies/Testimonies_for_the_Church_Volume_One/index.htm

... Skip to Chapter 45... the poor

If you agree with such idea, that we are not to help people unless they conform to our health-message expectations... then feel free to live up to that ideals.

If person is a smoker and needs help, and I have the means to do so... what do I care if he is a smoker? Do I leverage my "grace" as means for him to stop smoking?

Basically, it boils down to:

1) If they are poor and exemplary Adventists... help them financially

2) If they are poor and they smoke, drink coffee or smoke, or make unwise financial decisions... you don't have to help them financially, because they are unwilling to change, so what's the use?

Now, I certainly am for people to make wise financial decisions with money/food they receive as donation, but what does it have to do with smoking, drinking tea or coffee? Is their poverty in any way caused by such habits... especially tea or coffee?

[Dr. Shane]

Wow- I guess it must be the work of some to put EGW in the worst possible light that they can!

Some people just have an axe to grind. If I ever left the Adventist church, I can't imagine going into Adventist circles and picking arguments with Adventists about their faith. There is something wrong there. I have many ex-Catholic friends and they stay as far away from Catholic circles as they can. There is something quite odd about a breed of ex-Adventists that continues to fight against what they supposedly have left behind them.

[GreatLakesGramma]

Good point, Shane. I guess they haven't left it behind after all.

[Twilight]

Good point, Shane. I guess they haven't left it behind after all.

Indeed.

Maybe the Holy Spirit is still striving with them and they are at war with Him?

Therefore finding a need to vent it on those that have not returned to Egypt?

[LifeHiscost]

And from Ellen White ...

I saw that the stewards of the Lord have no duty to help those persons who persist in using tobacco, tea, and coffee." 1 T 225

So it is clear that we are to ignore both entire church organizations and their people ... and also those individuals who ignore and reject our health message.

Notice that it says, 'no duty to those who persist'. It does not say we shouldn't. When one ignores what the Word or some other source God might use to convince people of a lifestyle that will help them to experience His love for them, is ignored, would it not seem sensible to put one's time in more productive labor where God's advice is seriously considered?

"Therefore, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God."

1 Corinthians 10:31 NKJV

God blesses!

[John317]

But that's not the context of that passage! The context is not providing financial support to poor people who disagree on the matter of drinking coffee, tea, or using tobacco. Thus, if they continue using it, then our Christian duty to help them out our financial means dissipates... because they are not willing to conform to our standards.

You can read it here:

http://www.gilead.net/egw/books/testimonies/Testimonies_for_the_Church_Volume_One/index.htm

... Skip to Chapter 45... the poor

If you agree with such idea, that we are not to help people unless they conform to our health-message expectations... then feel free to live up to that ideals.

I agree with Ellen White on this. I think, though, that there are ways of presenting it in the worst possible light so that it seems unreasonable and unChristian.

But the point that we get out of Ellen White's message on this is that the church's duty to help people financially is not unconditional.

This is brought out also in the New Testament:

1 Tim. 5:3-16

[3] Honor widows who are truly widows. [4] But if a widow has children or grandchildren, let them first learn to show godliness to their own household and to make some return to their parents, for this is pleasing in the sight of God. [5] She who is truly a widow, left all alone, has set her hope on God and continues in supplications and prayers night and day, [6] but she who is self-indulgent is dead even while she lives. [7] Command these things as well, so that they may be without reproach. [8] But if anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for members of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

[9] Let a widow be enrolled if she is not less than sixty years of age, having been the wife of one husband, [10] and having a reputation for good works: if she has brought up children, has shown hospitality, has washed the feet of the saints, has cared for the afflicted, and has devoted herself to every good work. [11] But refuse to enroll younger widows, for when their passions draw them away from Christ, they desire to marry [12] and so incur condemnation for having abandoned their former faith. [13] Besides that, they learn to be idlers, going about from house to house, and not only idlers, but also gossips and busybodies, saying what they should not. [14] So I would have younger widows marry, bear children, manage their households, and give the adversary no occasion for slander. [15] For some have already strayed after Satan. [16] If any believing woman has relatives who are widows, let her care for them. Let the church not be burdened, so that it may care for those who are really widows.

[fccool]

John,

I am familiar with this passage. It talks about self-indulgent widows, who abuse their status... since early church loosely followed the welfare structure that God set up for Israel.

The question I'm addressing is not whether one should help people who clearly wasteful, and abuse the privilege. I've been a leader of community services in our church, and there are quite a few of those from my experience. YET, there are people who just don't fit into this society no matter what you'll do. They are not pretty, not healthy, not young, and not educated enough. It's really sad situation... but these people usually have no one at all. A lot of times, such should be our service to the world and to God to take care of the most rejected ones... just as they are... not when they start coming to church and change for the better.

What this attitude is in fact promoting is the idea that we help "our own"... the ones who conform, and leave others bite the dust of their habits.

Either way, I hope you know what I'm trying to say... because I really don't desire keeping this conversation flowing.

Let the holy be holy still... whoever it is.

[Gerr]

Quote:

Every hour squandered over the toilet should reprove them for leaving the intellect to lie waste. 4 T 643

We could start a contest to see who can come up with the most petty instruction. Is any topic too small to escape the notice of Our Lady?

Originally Posted By: GLG

In choosing that quote, did you stop to think what the word toilet meant at that time? It didn't mean the same as it means now, that's for sure. It comes from a French word that means "small cloth, doily, dressing table," and the only English usage I have ever seen for the word in all the stories I've read from that era meant "the act or process of dressing or grooming oneself, including bathing and arranging the hair: to make one's toilet; busy at her toilet." (definitions are from dictionary.com)

Thus she was referring to the time women and girls spent primping in front of the mirror beyond what was necessary for good grooming. Back in her time, most upper class girls and women were more concerned about their appearance and social standing than about anything practical or spiritual, or that would be helpful to anyone other than themselves. I agree with her on that one.

And you are exactly right! We have associated toilet with poop that we forget there are other meanings to the word, thus trivializing and ridiculing someone in the process. So here is Webster's definition, AND THE CONTEXT of the quote.

1toi•let \ˈtȯi-lət\ n

[F toilette cloth on which items used for grooming are placed, fr. MF, piece of batiste, fr. dim. of toile cloth] 1667

1 archaic : dressing table

2 : the act or process of dressing and grooming oneself

3 a (1) : bathroom, lavatory 2

(2) : privy

b : a fixture that consists usu. of a water-flushed bowl and seat and is used for defecation and urination

4 : cleansing in preparation for or in association with a medical or surgical procedure 〈pulmonary toilet〉

Merriam-Webster, I. (2003). Merriam-Webster's collegiate dictionary. Includes index. (Eleventh ed.). Springfield, Mass.: Merriam-Webster, Inc.

The Imperishable Ornament

There is an ornament that will never perish, that will promote the happiness of all around us in this life and will shine with undimmed luster in the immortal future. It is the adorning of a meek and lowly spirit. God has bidden us wear the richest dress upon the soul. By every look into the mirror the worshipers of fashion should be reminded of the neglected soul. Every hour squandered over the toilet should reprove them for leaving the intellect to lie waste. Then there might be a reformation

602

that would elevate and ennoble all the aims and purposes of life. Instead of seeking golden ornaments for the exterior, an earnest effort would be put forth to secure that wisdom which is of more value than fine gold, yea, which is more precious than rubies...CH

[Gerr]

Quote:

I saw that the stewards of the Lord have no duty to help those persons who persist in using tobacco, tea, and coffee." 1 T 225

It is interesting how supposedly intelligent people could ONE SENTENCE from someone's writing and then make judgments about it. Here's the whole paragraph:

"Many lack wise management and economy. They do not weigh matters well, and move cautiously. Such should not trust to their own poor judgment, but counsel

56

with their brethren who have experience. Those who lack good judgment and economy are often unwilling to seek counsel. They generally think that they understand how to conduct their temporal business, and are unwilling to follow advice. They make bad moves, and suffer in consequence. Their brethren are grieved to see them suffer, and they help them out of difficulty. Their unwise management affects the church. It takes means from the treasury of God which should have been used to advance the cause of present truth. If these poor brethren would take an humble course, and be willing to be advised and counseled by their brethren, and then are brought into straightened places, their brethren should feel it their duty to cheerfully help them out of difficulty. But if they choose their own course, and rely upon their judgment, they should be left to feel the full consequences of their unwise course, and learn by dear experience that "in a multitude of counselors there is safety." God's people should be subject one to another. They should counsel with each other, that the lack of one be supplied by the sufficiency of the other. I saw that the stewards of the Lord have no duty to help those persons who persist in using tobacco, tea, and coffee. {4bSG 55.4}

Read the whole paragraph and see if the context changes perception. Sound bites never give the true picture.

[phkrause]

Quote:

I saw that the stewards of the Lord have no duty to help those persons who persist in using tobacco, tea, and coffee." 1 T 225

It is interesting how supposedly intelligent people could ONE SENTENCE from someone's writing and then make judgments about it. Here's the whole paragraph:

"Many lack wise management and economy. They do not weigh matters well, and move cautiously. Such should not trust to their own poor judgment, but counsel

56

with their brethren who have experience. Those who lack good judgment and economy are often unwilling to seek counsel. They generally think that they understand how to conduct their temporal business, and are unwilling to follow advice. They make bad moves, and suffer in consequence. Their brethren are grieved to see them suffer, and they help them out of difficulty. Their unwise management affects the church. It takes means from the treasury of God which should have been used to advance the cause of present truth. If these poor brethren would take an humble course, and be willing to be advised and counseled by their brethren, and then are brought into straightened places, their brethren should feel it their duty to cheerfully help them out of difficulty. But if they choose their own course, and rely upon their judgment, they should be left to feel the full consequences of their unwise course, and learn by dear experience that "in a multitude of counselors there is safety." God's people should be subject one to another. They should counsel with each other, that the lack of one be supplied by the sufficiency of the other. I saw that the stewards of the Lord have no duty to help those persons who persist in using tobacco, tea, and coffee. {4bSG 55.4}

Read the whole paragraph and see if the context changes perception. Sound bites never give the true picture.

Excellent point Gerry.

[remnant]

Mark 7:15

[jasd]

>>Some people just have an axe to grind.<<

By the tenor of the post – it seems you’re doing some ‘grinding’ of your own, eh?

>>If I ever left the Adventist church, I can't imagine going into Adventist circles and picking arguments with Adventists about their faith.<<

It may be that Gd elected them as “watchmen upon the walls...”

>>There is something wrong there.<<

The ‘wrongness’ may simply be that those asleep prefer to remain asleep...

>>I have many ex-Catholic friends and they stay as far away from Catholic circles as they can. There is something quite odd about a breed of ex-Adventists that continues to fight against what they supposedly have left behind them.<<

I could take the above a bit more seriously were I not acquainted with your ambivalence re fundamental lawbreaking...

[John317]

I have many ex-Catholic friends and they stay as far away from Catholic circles as they can. There is something quite odd about a breed of ex-Adventists that continues to fight against what they supposedly have left behind them.

I believe there are two main reasons for this, (1) they have a guilty conscience and fighting SDAs and their doctrines is one way they convince themselves that they are right and SDAs are wrong; and (2) Satan uses them to keep SDAs busy defending the faith and to discourage those who are looking into SDA beliefs or who are either new or weak in the faith.

This last point explains why it happens more among SDAs than among some other groups, because we know that Satan is making war against God's last-day church. The church and people who love Christ are his primary target. He knows his time is short.

[John317]

Mark 7:15

Mark 7:15

There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.

The context here was not germs or bad food or poison but rather ritual cleansing as the Jews practiced it.

[John317]

And then there's "toilet water," some of which my daughters gave my wife for her birthday. It smells great.

[Gerr]

Some people just have an axe to grind. If I ever left the Adventist church, I can't imagine going into Adventist circles and picking arguments with Adventists about their faith. There is something wrong there. I have many ex-Catholic friends and they stay as far away from Catholic circles as they can. There is something quite odd about a breed of ex-Adventists that continues to fight against what they supposedly have left behind them.

As a former Catholic, I have often wondered about that, because I have never gone to a Catholic forum and try to convince them they are all wrong.

[jasd]

Re the matter of the privacy and delicacy of the toilette: there’s a certain nursery cadence to it, but I wonder, is ‘p-double-o-p’ halal?

Now, I don’t mind; however, I do like to remain somewhat avant garde about matters...

>>God has bidden us wear the richest dress upon the soul.<<

Ahh, that is nice. However, I hear tell that Holy Writ enjoins the believer to consider his or her body the Temple of Gd. Should neglect of that temple translate to an unseemly appearance?—say, such as might

the manure spreader’s?

NON! NON! amis. Yet I’ve seen many churchgoers enter into Gd’s Tabernacle dressed more uncaringly than many who enter the local Barkeep’s dungeon simply to get drunk while watching sporting events on the telly.

And if a man has not the means to buy one good garment to approach his Gd – let him first enter into the local Salvation Amy or the Goodwill (or the Dorcas) – and purchase goodly raiment... And the woman whose hair is her adornment... let her not think that that consummates her toiletries. Should the adornment of her hair suffice?—egads – think not so!—but let her toilette be as an offering to her Gd – for He created her in His image. Rudeness lendeth itself to depression;

and Gd intended joy!

[jasd]

Re St Paul’s epistle to Timothy: yes, I’ve seen and heard hard-a** self-righteousness on the part of Xtianity's best, .Org pastors, for instance - when expounding upon beggars who approached their office weekdays asking for some change to buy something to eat.

“I tell them to wait until either I’ve finished or am on my own way out to lunch – and offer to buy them a burger. Y’know, if I give them the money to buy their own burger – they’ll just buy cheap wine and I would be an enabler.”

Holy sh*&%te!—so, what if the poor guy only wanted to have a small tot!? Maybe that is the only comfort he’ll have the whole stinkin’ day! For sure, the pastor was not invitin’ him home with his very self!—tah have his woman put a plate of roast beef in front of the sob...!

‘Give me the price of a slug my friend. It’s cold tonite and I’d like to have a bit of warmth in my belly when I sees thems angel’s brightness tonite.’

“Hang around for three hours – and I’ll buy you a burger.”

Sheeste almighty!—thems bowels of mercy fer shure!

Just take the guy down and buy the poor sob a bottle of Jack, fer cryin’ out loud.

And the widow?—shame on top you, St Paul!—for being the Great Condemner... like every poor woman is a slutty grifter! Aww, sheesh!

[cardw]

It is interesting how supposedly intelligent people could ONE SENTENCE from someone's writing and then make judgments about it. Here's the whole paragraph:

"Many lack wise management and economy. They do not weigh matters well, and move cautiously. Such should not trust to their own poor judgment, but counsel

56

with their brethren who have experience. Those who lack good judgment and economy are often unwilling to seek counsel. They generally think that they understand how to conduct their temporal business, and are unwilling to follow advice. They make bad moves, and suffer in consequence. Their brethren are grieved to see them suffer, and they help them out of difficulty. Their unwise management affects the church. It takes means from the treasury of God which should have been used to advance the cause of present truth. If these poor brethren would take an humble course, and be willing to be advised and counseled by their brethren, and then are brought into straightened places, their brethren should feel it their duty to cheerfully help them out of difficulty. But if they choose their own course, and rely upon their judgment, they should be left to feel the full consequences of their unwise course, and learn by dear experience that "in a multitude of counselors there is safety." God's people should be subject one to another. They should counsel with each other, that the lack of one be supplied by the sufficiency of the other. I saw that the stewards of the Lord have no duty to help those persons who persist in using tobacco, tea, and coffee. {4bSG 55.4}

Read the whole paragraph and see if the context changes perception. Sound bites never give the true picture.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: Shane

I have many ex-Catholic friends and they stay as far away from Catholic circles as they can. There is something quite odd about a breed of ex-Adventists that continues to fight against what they supposedly have left behind them.

I believe there are two main reasons for this, (1) they have a guilty conscience and fighting SDAs and their doctrines is one way they convince themselves that they are right and SDAs are wrong; and (2) Satan uses them to keep SDAs busy defending the faith and to discourage those who are looking into SDA beliefs or who are either new or weak in the faith.

[LifeHiscost]

There comes a time when we have to dust off our sandals and move on. There are others eager to accept our message and when we spend time with those that reject it, we deny it to those waiting for us to bring it to them.

Perhaps the sorrowing of David, for his son Absalom, is a good example of the depths of sorrow one can experience for a straying or lost brother, something we could use more of. However there came a time when Davids sorrowing was reprimanded by the prophet because of the damage it was causing to the moral support of others.

so it must be even for loving Christians re: whomever they might mourn.

"“If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple."

Luke 14:25 NKJV

This is, of course, a "by contrast" statement, never-the-less

important to remember when the comfort of the world seduces those away who wish no self-denial to be a part of their experience. How sad we believe Jesus sacrifice would reveal no value for which we should sacrifice.

"“Gather My saints together to Me,Those who have made a covenant with Me by sacrifice.”"Psalm 50:5 NKJV

God blesses!