Am I being deceived?

[GiveHimGlory]

We had a sermon last Sabbath called "Thinking it is peace in a time of war" and the preacher really showed how important it is to ensure that you aren't being deceived - he clearly demonstrated that the Bible has many warnings against being deceived.

I found it a really thought-provoking message and have tried to summarise what I got from it below, I hope others are blessed by it.

It is remarkable how often the Bible warns us against being deceived (all verses below are NIV):

Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you (Matt 24:4)

By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people. (Rom 16:18)

Do not deceive yourselves. (1 Cor 3:18)

Do not be deceived (1 Cor 6:9)

Do not be deceived (Gal 6:7)

Let no one deceive you with empty words (Eph 5:6)

I tell you this so that no one may deceive you by fine-sounding arguments (Col 2:4)

Don't let anyone deceive you in any way (2 Thess 2:3)

Don't be deceived, my dear brothers (Jam 1:16)

The King James Version lists thirty-six occurrences of words that begin with “deceive” (i.e. including “deceived”, “deceiveth” etc) in the New Testament compared with thirty-four in the Old Testament. The book of the Bible that contains the most reference is Revelation, containing seven occurrences, the book of Matthew is second containing five references, four of which appear in chapter 24 (where Jesus is speaking about the signs of the end), so we can understand that this warning about being deceived is particularly important near the time of the end.

Not only does the Bible warn us against be deceived, it gives us clear instructions on how to avoid deception. We can summarise the following rules to avoid being deceived:

“Take heed”

In Matthew 24:4 Jesus says And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. (KJV), the NIV translates the same phrase as “watch out”, the World English Bible says “be careful”, the English Standard Version has “see that”. The Greek is blepete (strongs 991), literally “to look at”. So Jesus is teaching us to have an alert attitude against deception. While we shouldn’t be cynical about everyone who claims to have a message from God, the Bible is encouraging us to have a healthy scepticism – to ask difficult questions, to be on our guard.

“Fair Speeches”

In Romans 16:18 Paul writes

For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

He makes similar warnings in other letters:

Let no man deceive you with vain words (Eph 5:6)

For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers (Tit 1:10)

In other words, there are people who say or teach things that sound right, or sound pleasing, but which are wrong. How can we tell is what they are saying is right? Study the word of God. Compare what they are claiming with what the word of God says. It is incredible how many people listen to TV evangelists and don’t check out the texts they give. There is a cliché (but true) that a text without a context is a pretext. It is just lazy to listen to a preacher quote from the Bible without checking that the texts he is quoting actually support his argument when read in context with other verses around them. Have you ever heard someone quote from the Bible "Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"? Did you know this is what those opposed to Paul were saying – Paul is actually writing against such teachings!

John writes in 2 John 1:7

For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh

Some people read this verse as saying the only test for deception is if someone claims Jesus didn’t come in the flesh. This isn’t what John is saying – he is saying learn what is true doctrine, then you will know that those who teach false doctrine are trying to deceive you. Clearly there are many forms of false doctrine, denying that Jesus is come in the flesh is one example.

“Let no man deceive himself”

There are a number of verses that teach us not to deceive ourselves:

Let no man deceive himself (1 Cor 3:18)

he deceiveth himself (Gal 6:3)

but deceiveth his own heart (Jam 1:26)

we deceive ourselves (1 John 1:8)

This must surely be the hardest lesson to learn. How easy it is to just go along with what we have always believed, and not make the effort to check if we have been right all along. Unconsciously we know it will be a huge upheaval if we are wrong, so we make every excuse to avoid making a serious investigation of the truth. We tell ourselves we are too busy at the moment and will find time later to really investigate what we believe.

This is also about our relationship with God. Is our relationship with God so strong it could survive our denomination being wrong? In other words, do we have a personal relationship with God, do we listen to what the Holy Spirit is telling us individually, do we ask God questions and learn from him? Or is what we believe about God simply what our church and pastor tell us? Have we never known the thrill of studying the Word of God for ourselves, of having the Holy Spirit as our friend, comforter and teacher?

If we are a pastor or employed by the church it is perhaps even more difficult. If we were to discover that our church teaches false doctrine we would be forced to quit our job, and seek other employment. Who is brave enough to seriously engage in a task that may result in such hardship?

To give an indication of the sort of effort involved in establishing if we are being deceived, consider the follow thought-experiment.

Suppose a Jehovah’s Witness hears a sermon about not being deceived, and how important it is to hold on to the truth. Suppose the pastor reads many of the texts listed above. Will that Jehovah’s Witness seriously engage with his teachings to find if they are true? In all likelihood the Jehovah’s Witness, like most people, will think everyone else is being deceived and needs to investigate their teachings, but that he himself does not need to really check things out.

Yet suppose that night he has a dream, and appears in the Last Judgement, to be told that he was actually deceived and that he should have been an orthodox Christian. He starts to protest and say that he studied the Bible every day – how could be have been expected to find the truth if it wasn’t evident from his daily study of the Bible? The answer comes back – in what spirit were you studying? Were you simply seeking confirmation of what you already believed in the Bible, or were you really asking for the truth no matter where it lay?

· Were you “taking heed” – keeping watch? Were you asking difficult questions and not being satisfied until you got a genuine reply?

· Were you listening to “fair speeches” from the pastor or bible study leader every week or were you studying the Bible for yourself?

· Most difficult of all, were you deceiving yourself? Did you really seek to prove all things? Did you spend time listening to what those critical of your church said, to decide if it was the truth, or did you prefer not to listen?

Like Scrooge in A Christmas Carol the man awoke the next morning a changed man. He determined to spend as long as it took to get to the truth, to study the Bible for himself, to read as much as he could from those critical of Jehovah’s Witnesses, even if his pastor and friends disapproved.

What about you? Will you follow Paul’s teaching in 1 Thessalonians 5:21 “prove all things, hold fast to that which is good”? In Obadiah there are two references to deceive. The first reads:

The pride of your heart has deceived you (Ob 1:3)

The second reads:

your friends will deceive and overpower you (Ob 1:7)

These are perhaps the two most difficult foes to overcome when setting out to prove all things. Your heart will tell you not to bother – it is too much trouble, and won’t you look a fool if you turn out to have been wrong all these years? Your friends will tell you there is no point studying anything critical of the church – you will only be listening to Satan’s lies anyway, how much better to spend your time reading approved church material?

But what shall it profit a man if he gain the whole world but lose his soul? (Matt 16:26) If the Bible continually tells believers to be careful they are not being deceived doesn’t it fall on every believer to take this warning seriously? If what you believe stands the fires of criticism and investigation your faith will be stronger and you will have lost nothing. If you find your beliefs were not built on a firm foundation then praise God that you now know the truth. You are not being deceived any longer!

Suppose the apostle Paul came to your local church – everyone would be excited and would be so uplifted to hear what he had to say. Yet how many would note what he said and afterwards carefully check everything to confirm if what he had said was correct?

As soon as it was night, the brothers sent Paul and Silas away to Berea. On arriving there, they went to the Jewish synagogue. Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. (Acts 17:10-11)

It is the glory of God to conceal a matter;

to search out a matter is the glory of kings.

(Prov 25:2)

[LifeHiscost]

Many quotes to indicate a reason to be cautious. Here's a couple that might allay any fears of whoever mistrusts Jesus' capability to protect those who are into the Word.

"For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."Matthew 24:24 KJV

"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Do all things without murmurings and disputings"

Phil 2:12-14 KJV

Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee. He [God] Himself has said, I will not in any way fail you nor give you up nor leave you without support. [i will] not, [i will] not, [i will] not in any degree leave you helpless nor forsake nor let [you] down (relax My hold on you)! [Assuredly not!]

Hebrews 13:5 AMP parenthesis brackets their's

God blesses!

[phkrause]

As soon as it was night, the brothers sent Paul and Silas away to Berea. On arriving there, they went to the Jewish synagogue. Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. (Acts 17:10-11)

GHG, some really great points, especially the statement above. That statement should resonate with some here.

[GiveHimGlory]

Thanks for the comments - and LifeHiscost makes a great point that we can really only feel *able* to ask questions when we are in a loving, secure relationship with God.

When our faith is based on fear we will never feel secure enough to question anything, and our spiritual "growth" will be a growing of fear and anxiety, when we should be growing into rest and security.

God bless you with his Shalom.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I do believe the forum is being deceived right here:

We had a sermon last Sabbath called "Thinking it is peace in a time of war" and the preacher really showed how important it is to ensure that you aren't being deceived - he clearly demonstrated that the Bible has many warnings against being deceived.

I found it a really thought-provoking message and have tried to summarise what I got from it below, I hope others are blessed by it.

It is remarkable how often the Bible warns us against being deceived (all verses below are NIV):

Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you (Matt 24:4)

By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people. (Rom 16:18)

Do not deceive yourselves. (1 Cor 3:18)

Do not be deceived (1 Cor 6:9)

Do not be deceived (Gal 6:7)

Let no one deceive you with empty words (Eph 5:6)

I tell you this so that no one may deceive you by fine-sounding arguments (Col 2:4)

Don't let anyone deceive you in any way (2 Thess 2:3)

Don't be deceived, my dear brothers (Jam 1:16)

**snip** (to cut space)

Quote:

· Were you “taking heed” – keeping watch? Were you asking difficult questions and not being satisfied until you got a genuine reply?

· Were you listening to “fair speeches” from the pastor or bible study leader every week or were you studying the Bible for yourself?

· Most difficult of all, were you deceiving yourself? Did you really seek to prove all things? Did you spend time listening to what those critical of your church said, to decide if it was the truth, or did you prefer not to listen?

Like Scrooge in A Christmas Carol the man awoke the next morning a changed man. He determined to spend as long as it took to get to the truth, to study the Bible for himself, to read as much as he could from those critical of Jehovah’s Witnesses, even if his pastor and friends disapproved.

What about you? Will you follow Paul’s teaching in 1 Thessalonians 5:21 “prove all things, hold fast to that which is good”? In Obadiah there are two references to deceive. The first reads:

The pride of your heart has deceived you (Ob 1:3)

The second reads:

your friends will deceive and overpower you (Ob 1:7)

These are perhaps the two most difficult foes to overcome when setting out to prove all things. Your heart will tell you not to bother – it is too much trouble, and won’t you look a fool if you turn out to have been wrong all these years? Your friends will tell you there is no point studying anything critical of the church – you will only be listening to Satan’s lies anyway, how much better to spend your time reading approved church material?

But what shall it profit a man if he gain the whole world but lose his soul? (Matt 16:26) If the Bible continually tells believers to be careful they are not being deceived doesn’t it fall on every believer to take this warning seriously? If what you believe stands the fires of criticism and investigation your faith will be stronger and you will have lost nothing. If you find your beliefs were not built on a firm foundation then praise God that you now know the truth. You are not being deceived any longer!

Suppose the apostle Paul came to your local church – everyone would be excited and would be so uplifted to hear what he had to say. Yet how many would note what he said and afterwards carefully check everything to confirm if what he had said was correct?

As soon as it was night, the brothers sent Paul and Silas away to Berea. On arriving there, they went to the Jewish synagogue. Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. (Acts 17:10-11)

It is the glory of God to conceal a matter;

to search out a matter is the glory of kings.

(Prov 25:2)

Why is this an exact quote from another website?

http://www.fountainoflanguage.com/sda/Am_I_Being_Deceived.htm

This is a "New Covenant" website:

Quote:

So now if we look back at traditional Adventism's view of Salvation we can see it to be wholly mistaken. The Ten Commandments are not God's Eternal Law, there is not one text in the Bible to support such as view. The Ten Commandments are the words of the Old Covenant, they are part of the Torah, and Christ's commands which shows his true followers (Rev 12:17) are his new commandments of love, and whereas the testimony of the old covenant was the law of stone, the testimony of Jesus is his Spirit dwelling in us (Rev 19:10). Traditional Adventists often talk about the "missing text" which changed Sabbath to Sunday; we can see that this ignores the many statements in the New Testament that Christians are free to keep whatever day they like (Rom 14:5, Gal 4:10, Col 2:16-17), we could ask Traditional Adventists about their missing text: where does it say we should treat the Ten Commandments any differently to the rest of the Torah ?

http://www.fountainoflanguage.com/sda/xsdalaw.html

Why can't people be honest when they post something instead of being clandestine???

[John317]

Thank you, Pam. I wonder the same thing. Let's not be deceived. No wonder Jesus gave this warning. It's almost a constant.

[John317]

We had a sermon last Sabbath ....

Is this true? Did you go to church and hear this sermon "last Sabbath"? If so, what church?

Are you sure the preacher read this whole sermon from the website this is from?

http://www.fountainoflanguage.com/sda/Am_I_Being_Deceived.htm

Tell the truth and don't try to deceive us any more.

Please tell us who you are and why you did this.

[Overaged]

Wow; I cannot believe what I am reading here - we have self-appointed members checking up on other members, and making such connections and insinuations as one usually expects in Soap Operas.

[Tom Wetmore]

Welcome to the computer/internet age! If anyone does this cut and paste routine, passing it off as something original, as their own or as if it is from anything other than its correct source, they will be called out on it.

Back in school, that was called cheating and you failed the course or were kicked out of school. Today's teachers have sophisticate software that analyzes student's papers for plagiarism or even loose paraphrasing.

In the real world, this sort of thing goes by even more serious titles with far more serious consequences - plagiarism, copyright infringement, theft, fraud, ID theft, etc.

[Gerr]

Someone said: When someone steals from one person, it's called plagiarism. When someone steals from many, it's called research.

[Woody]

Well ... before we roast GiveHimGlory ... I would like to hear his/her side. Surely we can do that . And be just a bit tolerant. Unless this was a pattern I would not jump on him so quickly.

I notice that he has given links in the past. So perhaps we should not judge so quickly.

[Overaged]

Agreed on 100% Woody. I guess though it is too much to ask of some by the looks of the fire-stoking that is building...

[phkrause]

Well ... before we roast GiveHimGlory ... I would like to hear his/her side. Surely we can do that . And be just a bit tolerant. Unless this was a pattern I would not jump on him so quickly.

I notice that he has given links in the past. So perhaps we should not judge so quickly.

Good point Woody.

[Overaged]

Welcome to the computer/internet age! If anyone does this cut and paste routine, passing it off as something original, as their own or as if it is from anything other than its correct source, they will be called out on it.

Back in school, that was called cheating and you failed the course or were kicked out of school. Today's teachers have sophisticate software that analyzes student's papers for plagiarism or even loose paraphrasing.

In the real world, this sort of thing goes by even more serious titles with far more serious consequences - plagiarism, copyright infringement, theft, fraud, ID theft, etc.

Tom; are you forgetting that "in the real world" 99% of the time when people are accused of these things; it actually is not true? And that when the accusation is made publicly, and prematurely, it is a crime too?

[Bravus]

I'm very happy to wait to hear the original poster's explanation of this odd occurrence.

For what it's worth, I don't think accusations have been made. Questions have been asked, and the situation begs questions.

[LifeHiscost]

plagiarism, copyright infringement, theft, fraud, ID theft, etc.

Guess we all need to hang our heads and hold our wrists out for the cuffs. Seems men have made laws that make God look like a pansy. But then I guess He doesn't need the money.

"That which has been is what will be, That which is done is what will be done, And there is nothing new under the sun."Ecclesiastes 1:9 NKJV

" “Ho! Everyone who thirsts,Come to the waters; And you who have no money, Come, buy and eat. Yes, come, buy wine and milk Without money and without price."Isaiah 55:2 NKJV

God blesses!

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Wow; I cannot believe what I am reading here - we have self-appointed members checking up on other members, and making such connections and insinuations as one usually expects in Soap Operas.

Gee, I don't know. I guess when I smell something fishy, I tend to investigate the source.

Other than quotes from the Bible, the only other source out of an entirety of 7 posts was regarding Universalism:

Originally Posted By: post #179124

http://ubfellowship.org/archive/history/doc171.htm

which, if you read, takes the reader back to the Book of Urantia and Ronald Numbers, who is a former SDA, now an agnostic, who wrote a book about Ellen White...

Quote:

"The best recent study of EGW's behavior and personality is included as an appendix to the second edition of Numbers' book. The author (Numbers' wife, who is a real non-Adventist academic psychologist affiliated with the University of Wisconsin) concludes that EGW displayed "somatization disorder with an accompanying histrionic personality style."

Here's quite an interesting snippet of an interview with Numbers:

http://www.salon.com/books/int/2007/01/02/numbers

Here's info about the Book of Urantia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Urantia_Book

You will note that Urantia is connected with Dr. William Sadler, who schooled under JH Kellogg's tutorage:

http://urantiabook.org/archive/history/doc171.htm

Now if you look at the Urantia site, you will find all sorts of interesting information, to wit:

Originally Posted By: http://urantiabook.org/archive/readers/doc614.htm

Of your living life mechanism, your personality has no more reality, functional discernible reality, than the color yellow has when it has nothing to color. It's an abstract concept. You see, your personality is quality but not quantity. But it colors the entire new morontia being. And it colors it with the color of this person. This personality of Ruth Burton's is utterly changeless. It will never change. It will never change from the time she was a little girl and first demonstrated it, through the morontia life, through the superuniverse, and Havona career, and the Corps of Finality, this personality is absolutely unchangeable. And if it changed, it wouldn't be Ruth Burton any more. One of the definitions of personality is, permanence in the presence of change. The quality of divinity in the Thought Adjuster. (Can't understand tape).

These are the two changeless features of an otherwise ever-changing, ever-growing, ever-evolving being. What changes? The soul. What is the soul? It's character. Later on it will be the spirit self. Now it's the morontia self. The soul today, in each of us, is a morontia embryo growing within the womb of a material body, having been procreated in that mind by the invasion of a spirit entity. Let's examine what's in that soul. Ruth's character is in that soul. Ruth doesn't take with her this seven adjutant mind that she's been using, but she does take with her in that soul all of the character-memory-precipitate of mind action out of this life. What kind of character--what do we mean by character? It's our virtue and our vices.

Ahhh...the wonders of reincarnation and New Age philosophy entrenched in Eastern mysticism.

And here's an interesting sidelight about hit-and-run posters taken from the topic where GiveHimGlory had written one of his numerous, well, 7 posts:

Post ##179148 - 08/02/08 08:05 AM:

Originally Posted By: Woody

Originally Posted By: WayneV

The original post that started this thread appears to have been a "Hit-N-Run," as it is the only post the user made to any forum here. Maybe s/he was banned from the forums rather quickly. I don't know. Yet, the thread continues, why?

This guy is small fry. If you want to see the ultimate hit-n-run poster ... try CGMedley . He has some 600 posts over 8 years and to my knowledge ... he has never responded to any posts. I would nominate him for the award of all time Hit-n-Run poster. I've tried and given up on getting any response from him.

So, as you can see ... this is accepted here.

Now, the thread from the above post was started by one Rodger Tutt (IP address: 69.158.56.208) from Canada, whose personal website is:

http://greater-emmanuel.org/Hope4You/test.html

If you look at that website, it is specifically geared toward "walking away" from all things "fundamentalist"..

It includes the following sites to "prove" that the Bible teaches Universalism:

Quote:

UNIVERSAL TRANSFORMATION WEBSITES

WEBSITES (SOME OF THEM WITH MANY LINKS) THAT SHOW THAT THE BIBLE CORRECTLY (LITERALLY, NOT INTERPRETIVELY) translated teach universal salvation, not "eternal torment" or even "annihilation."

http://greater-emmanuel.org/Hope4You/

http://gtft.org/

http://www.saviourofall.org

http://www.concordant.org/

http://www.tentmaker.org/

http://www.sigler.org/

http://home.hawaii.rr.com/graceuniversal/articles.htm

http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/culinks.html

http://www.godfire.net/paris/hellnotforever.html

http://hellbusters.8m.com/mbpindex.htm

http://www.what-the-hell-is-hell.com/

http://hometown.aol.com/jantonsson/hell/hell.html

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Bible-Proofs-modern.html

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/OriginandHistory.html

http://people.zeelandnet.nl/wjanse/welcome.htm

http://www.savior-of-all.com/

http://bible-truths.com

http://hellbusters.8m.com/mbpperpetuates.htm

http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/24.html

http://www.ocis.net/~rmckay/

http://www.hisremnant.org/index.html

http://www.geocities.com/goodseedpub/ click on links page

http://www.willamette.edu/~ttalbott/theol.html

http://godfire.net/index.html

http://users.aristotle.net/~bhuie/death.htm

http://www.sigler.org/slagle/

http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/index.html

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Sparta/8460/

http://www.ais-gwd.com/~cdevans/

http://www.godslastcall.org/rev21-22.html

http://www.thenewcreation.com/

http://godfire.net/eby

http://www.hisremnant.org/eby/list.html

http://hellbusters.8m.com/eby.htm

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/ScripturalProofs.html

http://www.sigler.org/kingdom/links.htm

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html

http://hometown.aol.com/jantonsson/gehenna/gehenna.html

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/FreeMoralAgent-Eby.html

http://godskingdomministries.org/free_will.htm

http://www.sigler.org/slagle/The%20Gobbledygook%20Gospel.htm

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/Lazarus-byHuie.htm

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Lazarus.html

http://bible-truths.com/part8.htm

http://www.godfire.net/elwin.html

http://www.godfire.net/reasons.html

http://www.godfire.net/FreeWill.html

http://www.godfire.net/eby.html

http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/answers.html

http://www.gospelogic.com/

http://www.promiseed.com

http://home.att.net/~spiritword/index.htm

http://sigler.org/kingdom/

http://www.sigler.org/keith/

http://www.godfire.net/paris/

http://www.geocities.com/goodseedpub/

http://greater-emmanuel.org/jg/jgindex.html

http://clicks.aweber.com/z/ct/?iacvRwIpRsno5P7RIq0rFQ

http://clicks.aweber.com/z/ct/?Y.GELaPDB3Z3CgT7zcV20A

http://www.lighthouselibrary.com/

http://www.graceevangel.org/GraceEvangel/home.html

http://www.geocities.com/michaelgerardburke/index.html

http://gtft.org/

http://www.purposeoflife.org.uk/

http://www.pilkingtonandsons.com/hellfactor/indexhf.htm

http://greater-emmanuel.org

http://www.hlom.org/fellowship.html

http://greater-emmanuel.org/Call_Of_The_Kingdom/

http://www.interiorcoveringsministry.org/

http://www.ais-gwd.com/~cdevans/recon-7.htm

http://tgulcm.tripod.com/

http://www.goodnewsinc.net/

http://www.twsj.ws/news.php

http://enduring-grace.com/news.php

http://www.greenwood.net/~cdevans

http://greater-emmanuel.org/insights.html

http://www.geocities.com/tws490/

http://www.ais-gwd.com/~cdevans/

http://www.hopebeyondhell.net/

http://hell-fact-or-fable.com

http://www.hearingthetruthofgod.com/

http://enduring-grace.com./e107_plugins/links_page/links.php?cat.2

http://www.haroldlovelace.com/

http://www.gospelfortoday.org/

http://p199.ezboard.com/bjesusthelightoftheworld

http://www.greenwood.net:80/~cdevans/SR.htm

http://www.biblicaluniversalist.bravehost.com/

http://www.christian-universalism.com/links.html

http://home.hawaii.rr.com/graceuniversal/

http://www.christianuniversalist.org

http://www.freedominmessiah.com/links.shtml

http://www.presence.tv/cms/index.php

http://www.angelfire.com/dc/universalism/form.html

http://jesusthelightoftheworld.yuku.com/forum/view/id/1

http://www.hearingthetruthofgod.com/id2.html

http://www.sigler.org/eby/savior_of_the_word_series.htm

http://www.haroldlovelace.com/

http://richardwaynegarganta.com/

http://www.notjustnotes.ws/index.htm

http://www.lighthouselibrary.com/

http://www.marycage.net/

http://hometown.aol.com/JAntonsson/adams/adams.html

http://www.gods-kingdom-ministries.org/

http://greater-emmanuel.org/jg/jgindex.html

http://www.willamette.edu/~ttalbott/

http://www.sigler.org/sirius8/rpnavbar.html

http://www.godfire.net/rayknight/

http://martinzender.com/zenderature.htm

http://thegloryrd.com

http://home.att.net/~spiritword/index.htm

http://www.urincluded2.com/

http://www.christaslife.org/

http://www.hearingthetruthofgod.com/id2.html

http://www.scaredofhell.com/

http://greater-emmanuel.org/links.html

Taking one of the above (http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/unbelif.html) you read this:

Quote:

Concerning the Extent of Salvation.

Eph. 1:9-11, and 2:4; Prov. 21:1; Ps. 110:3; Rev. 5:13

We believe that God, who is rich in mercy, who turns the hearts of the children of men as the rivers of water are turned, who works all things after the counsel of his own will, whose people shall be willing in the day of his power, will, in the dispensation of the fulness of times, gather together in one all things, in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth, even in him; and that every (intelligent) creature in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all those are in them, shall at last unite in the song of Moses and the Lamb, saying Blessing and honor, and glory, and power, be unto Him that sits upon the throne, and unto the Lamb forever and ever.

hmm...that would include Satan and his minions...

Now I just need to figure out if it's sardines or anchovies...

Or maybe I should just hunker down at 221B Baker Street.

[Tom Wetmore]

Elementary, my dear Watson...

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Elementary, my dear Watson...

...wondered if anyone would catch that..

[John317]

Other than quotes from the Bible, the only other source out of an entirety of 7 posts was regarding Universalism:

Originally Posted By: post #179124

http://ubfellowship.org/archive/history/doc171.htm

which, if you read, takes the reader back to the Book of Urantia and Ronald Numbers, who is a former SDA, now an agnostic, who wrote a book about Ellen White...

....Here's info about the Book of Urantia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Urantia_Book

You will note that Urantia is connected with Dr. William Sadler, who schooled under JH Kellogg's tutorage:

http://urantiabook.org/archive/history/doc171.htm

Now if you look at the Urantia site, you will find all sorts of interesting information, to wit:

Originally Posted By: http://urantiabook.org/archive/readers/doc614.htm

Of your living life mechanism, your personality has no more reality, functional discernible reality, than the color yellow has when it has nothing to color. It's an abstract concept. You see, your personality is quality but not quantity. But it colors the entire new morontia being. And it colors it with the color of this person. This personality of Ruth Burton's is utterly changeless. It will never change. It will never change from the time she was a little girl and first demonstrated it, through the morontia life, through the superuniverse, and Havona career, and the Corps of Finality, this personality is absolutely unchangeable. And if it changed, it wouldn't be Ruth Burton any more. One of the definitions of personality is, permanence in the presence of change. The quality of divinity in the Thought Adjuster. (Can't understand tape).

These are the two changeless features of an otherwise ever-changing, ever-growing, ever-evolving being. What changes? The soul. What is the soul? It's character. Later on it will be the spirit self. Now it's the morontia self. The soul today, in each of us, is a morontia embryo growing within the womb of a material body, having been procreated in that mind by the invasion of a spirit entity. Let's examine what's in that soul. Ruth's character is in that soul. Ruth doesn't take with her this seven adjutant mind that she's been using, but she does take with her in that soul all of the character-memory-precipitate of mind action out of this life. What kind of character--what do we mean by character? It's our virtue and our vices.

Ahhh...the wonders of reincarnation and New Age philosophy entrenched in Eastern mysticism.

I agree with you, Pam. The book is obviously deceptive and teaches deception. Yet for all that, as I recall, Alex (Belisle) really likes the Book of Urantia and said it seemed to him to be inspired. I have no doubt it is inspired but it couldn't have been inspired by the same God who inspired the Bible. That also is elementary, my dear Watson.

[Overaged]

Gee, I don't know. I guess when I smell something fishy, I tend to investigate the source.

Now, the thread from the above post was started by one Rodger Tutt (IP address: 69.158.56.208) from Canada, whose personal website is:

http://greater-emmanuel.org/Hope4You/test.html

Or maybe I should just hunker down at 221B Baker Street.

Just who are you trying to impress or convince? You have provided the poorest excuses I have seen for witch-hunting and harassing. And this is not the first forum member you have done it to. We have a neighbor in grade 7 who could have drummed up this "info" you "shared." I am out of this dump.

[John317]

Just who are you trying to impress or convince? You have provided the poorest excuses I have seen for witch-hunting and harassing. And this is not the first forum member you have done it to. We have a neighbor in grade 7 who could have drummed up this "info" you "shared." I am out of this dump.

I'd like to know more about what your objections are to Pam's posts on this thread, Overaged.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Originally Posted By: rudywoofs

Gee, I don't know. I guess when I smell something fishy, I tend to investigate the source.

Now, the thread from the above post was started by one Rodger Tutt (IP address: 69.158.56.208) from Canada, whose personal website is:

http://greater-emmanuel.org/Hope4You/test.html

Or maybe I should just hunker down at 221B Baker Street.

Just who are you trying to impress or convince? You have provided the poorest excuses I have seen for witch-hunting and harassing. And this is not the first forum member you have done it to. We have a neighbor in grade 7 who could have drummed up this "info" you "shared." I am out of this dump.

Overaged, I'm sorry you don't seem to want to dig and find out the truth. Too many people are content to let someone say something and take it for the gospel truth. I don't happen to be one of them. If I feel a "phoniness" in what someone has written, I'm going to search it out. And if I find deception, I'm going to call it out. I'm not trying to impress anyone.

**ponders**

Maybe you should be listening to your 7th grade neighbor a little more.

**waves good-bye**

[Tom Wetmore]

Well ... before we roast GiveHimGlory ... I would like to hear his/her side...

I am thinking we may actually have heard from him...

Some doth protest too much, methinks.

[LifeHiscost]

Overaged, I'm sorry you don't seem to want to dig and find out the truth. Too many people are content to let someone say something and take it for the gospel truth. I don't happen to be one of them. If I feel a "phoniness" in what someone has written, I'm going to search it out. And if I find deception, I'm going to call it out. I'm not trying to impress anyone.

**waves good-bye**

Rudy, I can remember when somebodies negative response to you re: to one of your previous posts would have been devastating to you. It's really good to see you with some inner strength, I believe given you by One higher than the ordinary mortal.

Not necessarily more appropriate than the wave, I would like to mention an added touch, one I often find difficult to remember.

"...for the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost.”"Luke 19:10 NKJV

Not suggesting anyone lost to eternity, just wandering, lost in

deceitful information.

"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. "1 John 4:1 KJV

Keep looking up!