Christ's human nature...

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Shane

The Adventist understanding rejects the false doctrine of original sin. A son is not guilty of the sin of his father. The child is born with a sinful nature and is destined to sin but is not born guilty sin.

I agree with this. WE're born with fallen natures but we're not born guilty of sin. The Catholic theolgy says that if Christ had merely been born with a fallen nature-- whether Himself had chosen to sin or not-- Christ would be guilty of sin, but this is false. We are guilty of sin only when we choose to sin. We're not guilty of sin apart from our choices. Sin is a choice, not nature. Catholic and Orthodox theology says sin is nature. That's why they require the Immaculate conception-- that Mary herself was born without original sin.

Then explain to me how that all of Adam's descendants were/are "BY NATURE CHILDREN OF WRATH," Eph 2:3. "IN ADAM ALL DIE," 1 Cor 15:22. WHY? The sentence of death hangs even over the unborn, WHY?

Adam did not sin because of nature. It was a choice for him. Babies/children sin, not because of choice, but because of nature. Later on, we learn right from wrong, THEN we also sin because we choose to sin. But show ONE who has ever escaped sinning BEFORE they could make a choice, and I'll show you that that person had a different nature.

Just because the Catholics have erroneous doctrines mixed in with the idea of original sin does not invalidate the fact that the sin virus had/has infected every descendant of Adam save One.

Original sin as understood by the Reformers simply meant this: "original sin" means that sinfulness marks everyone from birth, in the form of a heart inclined toward sin, prior to any actual sins; this inner sinfulness is the root and source of all actual sins; it is transmitted to us from Adam, our first representative before God. The doctrine of original sin makes the point that we are not sinners because we sin, but we sin because we are sinners, born with a nature enslaved to sin." The Reformation Study Bible p.781 ESV.

[Dr. Shane]

Then explain to me how that all of Adam's descendants were/are "BY NATURE CHILDREN OF WRATH," Eph 2:3. "IN ADAM ALL DIE," 1 Cor 15:22. WHY? The sentence of death hangs even over the unborn, WHY?

[Gerr]

[Dr. Rich]

John, I am sick and tired of you're put downs! I am sure Rondo is too, so IF you disagree that is fine--but don't go saying that "I AM WRONG"! Please refer to what Jesus told Nicademas in John 3 and you will see that one who is truely born again by the Holy Spirit will not sin again, because they will be Sons and Daughters of the Family of God, thereby making them Gods too! I believe that it is your faulty understanding or mistaken understanding that makes you belive by faith that no one can stop sinning and thereby overcome sin and become righteous.

And tell me please what is the difference between practicing sin and sin itself? Huh? If you refuse to obey God and practice a lie, that is sin. I don't think Jesus was kidding when He told the woman to "go and sin no more". John, please don't be fooled into beliving the lies given to us by Satan's servants! This is serious stuff my friend.

To prove it, please show me someone who you belive has been born again by the Holy Spirit and I will put them to the test.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Then explain to me how that all of Adam's descendants were/are "BY NATURE CHILDREN OF WRATH," Eph 2:3. "IN ADAM ALL DIE," 1 Cor 15:22. WHY? The sentence of death hangs even over the unborn, WHY?

S: Because we are born with a fallen nature alone. We are destined to sin. Jesus was born with both the fallen and divine nature.

G: Christ was divine, "but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men" (Eph 2:7). So He laid His divinity aside. It was of no help to Him. There is no question that His divine nature was sinless. How about His human nature? Had His human nature been sinful as you claim, then He would have been subject to wrath just like the rest of us!

If we die only because of sins we are/were destined to commit, then a baby that dies at birth dies because of sins he has not even committed yet but would have committed in the future had he lived! How just of God to do that? But the fact is, Adam's descendants become children of wrath because the virus of sin, the sin principle, the seed of sin, has become part and parcel of his children's very make-up/nature. Already sinners because it is in their make-up to sin. I pointed out in a previous post that we sin in two levels - 1) in the heart without the act, 2) in the outward act. A baby/child cannot be guilty of #2, so he must be a child of wrath because of #1. In his very nature is already selfishness that will ultimately manifested outwardly in those behaviors that we see.

I have to go to bed now. I'll quote SDAs Believe about His humanity later.

[Dr. Shane]

We inherit a sinful/fallen nature which is a weakness that makes us destined to sin. That is what is being highlighted there on pages 90 and 91. We do not inherit the guilt of our parent's sin. We inherit the weakness which causes us to "tend toward evil." That is not the same as inheriting guilt.

If we inherit guilt, then we have a problem with Christ's birth. Because the Bible says He was made in all things as His brethren. Well, if we are born guilty of sin, then He too was born guilty of sin. Yet we know that was not the case. We know that no sin was found in Him. So, if He was not born guilty of sin, and yet He was made in *all things* like us, then we must not be born guilty of sin either. So why does everyone sin? Why are we born enemies of God?

The answer is that we are born destined to sin. Christ was not born destined to sin because He was born with a connection to God. It was that connection that He used to stay pure. He stated that His works were not His but His Father's. He constantly relied on His Father to give Him the ability to live a pure life. As we come to the age of discernment we accept that connection with God and find the same power to overcome that Christ had. Then we are reconciled and no longer children of wrath but rather children of God.

[Dr. Shane]

How just of God to do that?

I don't play that game with other Adventists. I can understand such ignorant questions coming from non-Adventists but we know better. We understand the Great Controversy. If you want to question God's character do that in a discussion with someone else. I will not sit down and explain the Great Controversy to another Adventist. If you don't have the book, send me your address, I will buy one and have it mailed to you.

[John317]

John, I am sick and tired of you're put downs! I am sure Rondo is too, so IF you disagree that is fine--but don't go saying that "I AM WRONG"!

Where was the "putdown"? I wish you would quote what you are responding to.

Is a "putdown" saying someone is in error? It shouldn't be. How many times have you said that I'm mistaken and in error? Yet I have never replied to you you should stop telling me I am in error, and I never will. If you believe me to be in error, I want you to say it.

The rules of the forum allow for people to tell others that their arguments are in error or mistaken.

You come on the forum and teach that some of Bible writers are of the devil, yet you don't like me to tell you that your arguments are in error. That doesn't make much sense to me.

[John317]

John, I am sick and tired of you're put downs! I am sure Rondo is too, so IF you disagree that is fine--but don't go saying that "I AM WRONG"!

Is this the "putdown" that you are referring to--

Originally Posted By: John3:17

We've already been over this verse many times. It's not saying they won't ever sin again. The Greek verb makes clear-- and it comes out clearly in the New American Standard Verion-- that they won't continue to deliberatly and willfully practice sin. The verb is in the present tense, which means, "will not continue to practice sin." That is quite different from never committing a sin again.

Your view would mean that no one has ever been born again.

It's another case of your theology being based on a faulty understanding of the Scriptures.

I didn't take it as a putdown a while ago for you to tell me that I know nothing about keeping God's commandments. You are free to say it, and I am then free to respond.

[John317]

... Had His human nature been sinful as you claim, then He would have been subject to wrath just like the rest of us!

This is what is taught by Romans Catholics and all the others who believe in Augustine's view of original sin. However, it's an error to say that people are subject to God's wrath simply by virtue of being born with a fallen human nature.

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

If we die only because of sins we are/were destined to commit, then a baby that dies at birth dies because of sins he has not even committed yet but would have committed in the future had he lived! How just of God to do that?

People don't die for that reason. People die the first death as a consequence of Adam's sin, and therefore the baby who dies is not dying because of his own guilt. He dies because he's related to Adam. Babies die because of sin but not their own personal sins.

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

But the fact is, Adam's descendants become children of wrath because the virus of sin, the sin principle, the seed of sin, has become part and parcel of his children's very make-up/nature. Already sinners because it is in their make-up to sin.

I believe that Jesus inherited this same nature that we inherit. The reason Jesus didn't sin was not because of the difference in the way He was born or in the difference of His human nature, but the reason Christ didn't sin was due to the presence of the Holy Spirit in His life and because of His love for the Father.

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

I pointed out in a previous post that we sin in two levels - 1) in the heart without the act, 2) in the outward act. A baby/child cannot be guilty of #2, so he must be a child of wrath because of #1. In his very nature is already selfishness that will ultimately manifested outwardly in those behaviors that we see.

I agree with your last paragraph. Most sins are probably in the heart and not in the acts. The difference with Jesus is that from the time of his first conscious thoughts and ability to reason, Jesus did not cherish sinful thoughts. The reason this was so is that the Holy Spirit was in control of His life from the very beginning.

[John317]

.... So why does everyone sin? Why are we born enemies of God?

The answer is that we are born destined to sin. Christ was not born destined to sin because He was born with a connection to God. It was that connection that He used to stay pure. He stated that His works were not His but His Father's. He constantly relied on His Father to give Him the ability to live a pure life. As we come to the age of discernment we accept that connection with God and find the same power to overcome that Christ had. Then we are reconciled and no longer children of wrath but rather children of God.

Well said, Shane.

I think in conversion, the Holy Spirit begins the process of restoring to us that same freedom that Christ had of doing the Father's will. That's what Romans 6 to 8 are all about-- the freedom to be what God wants us to be, instead of being slaves of Satan and of our own sinful propensities and habits. Christ's Spirit liberates us in order to fulfill God's will and our true potential.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Shane

.... So why does everyone sin? Why are we born enemies of God?

The answer is that we are born destined to sin. Christ was not born destined to sin because He was born with a connection to God. It was that connection that He used to stay pure. He stated that His works were not His but His Father's. He constantly relied on His Father to give Him the ability to live a pure life. As we come to the age of discernment we accept that connection with God and find the same power to overcome that Christ had. Then we are reconciled and no longer children of wrath but rather children of God.

Well said, Shane.

I think in conversion, the Holy Spirit begins the process of restoring to us that same freedom that Christ had of doing the Father's will. That's what Romans 6 to 8 are all about-- the freedom to be what God wants us to be, instead of being slaves of Satan and of our own sinful propensities and habits. Christ's Spirit liberates us in order to fulfill God's will and our true potential.

When we are born again, the Holy Spirit takes up residence in our heart.

He then teaches us to listen to Him and follow Him.

When we do that, we are "abiding in Christ".

He teaches us not to listen to the temptations and thoughts of Satan.

When we learn to hear and follow the still small voice of God (speaking in our hearts), like Elijah did, then we will be true Sons of God.

Mark :-)

[Gerr]

Shane: We inherit a sinful/fallen nature which is a weakness that makes us destined to sin. That is what is being highlighted there on pages 90 and 91. We do not inherit the guilt of our parent's sin. We inherit the weakness which causes us to "tend toward evil." That is not the same as inheriting guilt.

G: Then explain to me how babies in the womb are already called, "by NATURE children of wrath." (Eph 2:3). Would God judge anyone guilty BEFORE they commit a sinful act just because they are "destined" to do so? Consider - Adam was/is the father & representative of the whole human race. We are identified with him by virtue of kinship. When he sinned, as his children we share in his guilt. That's not fair. But that's what is. When the Japanese Navy attacked Pearl Harbor, EVERY Japanese citizen became an American enemy. Even Japanese-Americans became the enemy to many. Consider also the ancient custom of using champions, as illustrated in the story of David & Goliath. The champions represented their army/people. A whole people became the slaves of the victor & his people. People shared in the victory or loss of their champion. Likewise we can claim eternal life through the victory of our Champion, the Second Adam. It is along this principle that EGW could write this:

"The human race do not stand in the righteousness of character which Adam possessed at his creation. Although neglect to keep the requirements of God is sin, and the wages of sin is death, yet there is no claim made that man may have eternal life except through the obedience and righteousness of Jesus Christ, who is the representative and head of all humanity. The sinner can find hope only through dependence upon the perfection of Christ." ST June 11, 1894.

We are children of wrath because we are brought forth in iniquity, conceived in sin, born sinners, born guilty, as Ps 51:5 & Ps 58:3 says, NOT because we are born into a sinful world. If we are sinners because we are born into a sinful world, then Jesus, being born into the same sinful world, would/should have been regarded as a sinner.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

... Had His human nature been sinful as you claim, then He would have been subject to wrath just like the rest of us!

John: This is what is taught by Romans Catholics and all the others who believe in Augustine's view of original sin. However, it's an error to say that people are subject to God's wrath simply by virtue of being born with a fallen human nature.

Gerry: John, anwering a question by saying that I am in error because the Catholics are in error begs the question. You have not shown why it's an error!!! Paul in Eph 2:3 plainly says, we are "by NATURE children of wrath!" WHY? Adam, our representative, our father, our champion, was defeated. We share in that defeat/guilt. Thus we became subjects of Satan, therefore, "by nature children of wrath." How are we rescued from this condition? Christ, our our nearest Kinsman redeems us. Christ, the Second Adam, our CHAMPION, defeated Satan at every turn. Thus, His victory is OUR victory.

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

If we die only because of sins we are/were destined to commit, then a baby that dies at birth dies because of sins he has not even committed yet but would have committed in the future had he lived! How just of God to do that?

John: People don't die for that reason. People die the first death as a consequence of Adam's sin, and therefore the baby who dies is not dying because of his own guilt. He dies because he's related to Adam. Babies die because of sin but not their own personal sins.

G: So John, what did you just say? You have just described our participation in Adam's original sin!!! If we die as a consquence of Adam's sin, are you not saying that we die because we share in that guilt?

Furthermore, NOT ONLY do we share in that guilt, those who "are in the flesh", those born with SINFUL flesh, inherent sinful propensities "cannot please God...for it does not submit to God's law, indeed it cannot." (Rom 8:7-8). Everyone born with SINFUL flesh are born REBELS. In this regard, I agree with the Reformers' notion of the "total depravity" of fallen man. No way Christ was born morally corrupt.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

But the fact is, Adam's descendants become children of wrath because the virus of sin, the sin principle, the seed of sin, has become part and parcel of his children's very make-up/nature. Already sinners because it is in their make-up to sin.

John: I believe that Jesus inherited this same nature that we inherit. The reason Jesus didn't sin was not because of the difference in the way He was born or in the difference of His human nature, but the reason Christ didn't sin was due to the presence of the Holy Spirit in His life and because of His love for the Father.

Gerry: If Christ was born with a sinful nature, with the same inherent propensities for sin as we do, could be indwelt by the Holy Spirit from conception onward, WHY are we not indwelt by that same Spirit from conception onward? Is God playing favoritism? HOW could Jesus in the womb have love for the Father if He had the INHERENT propensity to rebel against God?

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

How just of God to do that?

I don't play that game with other Adventists. I can understand such ignorant questions coming from non-Adventists but we know better. We understand the Great Controversy. If you want to question God's character do that in a discussion with someone else. I will not sit down and explain the Great Controversy to another Adventist. If you don't have the book, send me your address, I will buy one and have it mailed to you.

G: Shane, I'm very disappointed with that remark. VERY condescending. I have more than one copy of the book. Not collecting dust either.

[Dr. Shane]

Dr. Gerry, you are really starting to talk in circles. You are asking questions you have already asked and have been answered. That seems to indicate that what is being said is simply going in one ear and out the other.

Innocent children die for the same reason plants and animals die. "For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now." (Romans 8:22) I think you knew that already. That is a basic teaching of the Great Controversy doctrine. It is wrong for you to say "If my theology isn't right, than God isn't just." That is exactly what you are saying when you say that if an innocent child dies, God isn't just (thus the child must be guilty of sin).

The Bible is very clear on the matter. "The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him." (Ezk. 18:20)

The sinful/fallen nature is a weakness that makes us bent toward sin. We are born destined to sin. Jesus was born with this same weakness BUT He was also born with a divine nature which included a connection with God that we are not born with. There is the difference. That is not hard to grasp and doesn't require 30 pages on C/A to understand.

[Gerr]

Shane: We inherit a sinful/fallen nature which is a weakness that makes us destined to sin. That is what is being highlighted there on pages 90 and 91. We do not inherit the guilt of our parent's sin. We inherit the weakness which causes us to "tend toward evil." That is not the same as inheriting guilt.

G: We are "by nature children of wrath" BECAUSE we are weak? Again, what kind of a God would be angry with me because I am born weak? NO, NO, NO!!! We ARE children of wrath BECAUSE we ARE born REBELS (Rom 8:7-8). BORN SINNERS, BORN GUILTY, Ps 51:5 & 58:3. Adam, our father, our representative, our champion, lost in battle. We, as his children, share in that defeat. Subjects of Satan from birth. That's the law of the champion combat. Christ, the Second Adam, our Champion, defeated Satan. Thus, we share His victory!

Shane: If we inherit guilt, then we have a problem with Christ's birth.

Gerry: YOU have a problem. I don't. If He had a corrupt nature with ALL its evil propensities, then, indeed, He would have been a child of wrath as well. But, NO, He had the nature of fallen humanity WITHOUT the sin in His make-up.

Shane: Well, if we are born guilty of sin, then He too was born guilty of sin. Yet we know that was not the case. We know that no sin was found in Him. So, if He was not born guilty of sin, and yet He was made in *all things* like us, then we must not be born guilty of sin either. So why does everyone sin? Why are we born enemies of God?

Gerry: No sin was found in Him because He inherited NONE of Adam's propensities to sin. You are carrying the "all things" to mean without exception. When Paul said that the gospel "was proclaimed in ALL creation" (Col 1:23), did he mean it also went to the islands in the Pacific? Are you not taking "all things" to the same extent that our other Christian friends understand that the wicked suffer in hell "forever & ever?"

Christ was conceived through the HS, THEREFORE, He could NOT be like us "IN ALL THINGS"!!!

[doug yowell]

Yer doin good,Gerry.--Go Gerry!!

[Gerr]

Shane: Dr. Gerry, you are really starting to talk in circles. You are asking questions you have already asked and have been answered. That seems to indicate that what is being said is simply going in one ear and out the other.

Innocent children die for the same reason plants and animals die. "For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now." (Romans 8:22) I think you knew that already. That is a basic teaching of the Great Controversy doctrine. It is wrong for you to say "If my theology isn't right, than God isn't just." That is exactly what you are saying when you say that if an innocent child dies, God isn't just (thus the child must be guilty of sin).

Gerry: As you can see, I am quoting you word for word in answering you to show you that I am addressing your points. You think your point is just going in one ear & out the other? You may think you have answered the question but you have not. Has it occurred to you that perhaps you did not understand the question? If a child dies for no reason that it has done, is that just? The WHOLE creation groans BECAUSE, and let me repeat the point again, our father, our representative, our champion Mr. Adam, lost the battle. We, as his subjects, his children, and the whole planet, share in his defeat/guilt.

Shane: The Bible is very clear on the matter. "The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him." (Ezk. 18:20)

Gerry: NOBODY dies the second death on account of Adam. The scond death IS the result of our own individual choices. But speaking of the first death, Paul is very CLEAR when he says, "IN ADAM ALL DIE". (1 Cor 15:22).

[Gerr]

Shane: The sinful/fallen nature is a weakness that makes us bent toward sin. We are born destined to sin.

Gerry: Why is that? Because the sin principle, seed of sin, the virus of sin is in the nature. Destined to sin BECAUSE WE ARE SINNERS from conception.

Shane: Jesus was born with this same weakness BUT He was also born with a divine nature which included a connection with God that we are not born with. There is the difference. That is not hard to grasp and doesn't require 30 pages on C/A to understand.

Gerry: The Bible also says that He laid His divinity aside. He did not cling to it. He took the form of a slave. His divinity did Him no good! SO, if He was born like us "in all things", why are we born disconnected from God? What causes disconnection: "your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God, and your sins have hidden his face from you so that he does not hear." Isa 59:2. What sin for the baby in the womb? Sin to be weak?

Shane, it shouldn't take 30 pages for someone to grasp my point either: Christ took all the liabilities of human nature but WITHOUT the sin.

[Dr. Shane]

You are carrying the "all things" to mean without exception.

Read the context of the verse. The author is talking about the nature of Christ. Here it is:

Hebrews 2:

16. For verily He took not on Him the nature of angels; but He took on Him the seed of Abraham.

17. Wherefore in all things it behoved Him to be made like unto His brethren

[Dr. Shane]

You may think you have answered the question but you have not.

Not just me... I have only pointed to a few of the Biblical answers. Other members participating in this thread have answered more questions than me.

[Dr. Shane]

If a child dies for no reason that it has done, is that just?

No it is not just. But that doesn't mean that God isn't just. It is wrong to question the justice of God simply because other's beliefs are different than yours. Your position is that if your theology is wrong, than God isn't just. Shame on you. Go back and read the Great Controversy again. That baby dies for the same reason an oak tree dies. Or are you going to tell us the oak tree is a sinner too?

[John317]

You have just described our participation in Adam's original sin!!! If we die as a consquence of Adam's sin, are you not saying that we die because we share in that guilt?

When babies die the first death, they are no more dying because of guilt for Adam's sin than are babies who suffer the consequences of their parents sins. The fact that a child suffers the consequences of a mother's wrong habits isn't proof that they are guilty of those sins.

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Furthermore, NOT ONLY do we share in that guilt, those who "are in the flesh", those born with SINFUL flesh, inherent sinful propensities "cannot please God...for it does not submit to God's law, indeed it cannot." (Rom 8:7-8). Everyone born with SINFUL flesh are born REBELS. In this regard, I agree with the Reformers' notion of the "total depravity" of fallen man. No way Christ was born morally corrupt.

I'm not arguing that Jesus was born morally corrupt.

"Clad in the vestments of humanity, the Son of Gld came down to the level of those He wished to save. In Him was no guile or sinfulness; He was ever pure and undefiled; YET HE TOOK UPON HIM OUR SINFUL NATURE." RH December 15, 1896; and also RH August 22, 1907.

Please note in this quotation that "sinfulness" and "our sinful nature" are not one and the same thing. The latter Christ "took;" but the former He did not possess. "Guile or sinfulness" are qualities of the mind quite opposite to "pure and undefiled." Surely it is clear that the "vestments of humanity" which Christ "took upon Him," whereby "He came down to the level of those He wished to save," was "our sinful nature."

Our hereditary weakness is imprinted upon our bodies. This we all "take" from our earthly parents. The context of this inspired passage makes it obvious that Christ took our hereditary "sinful nature" in common with "every child of Adam" "whom He wished to save." The quotation clearly distinguishes between the flesh of our fallen human natures and sinfulness which is a function or state of the mind.

Since "the flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God" (MCP 236)-- regardless of how evil a man's heredity may be,--- flesh of itself cannot sin. This principle applies to all men-- to us, as well as to Christ. Sinful, fallen flesh can only "act contrary to the will of God" as the mind directs it to do so; for it is in the processes or functions of the mind that "sinfulness" or righteousness originate and operate (see Mark 7: 20-23). One "takes" or inherits only the potential for "sinfulness" from his parents-- not the sinfulness itself.

Paul says, "Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God" (Romans 6:13). Clearly, the fleshly "members" of our bodies ae merely "instruments" of sin, or of righteousness-- "instruments" controlled by the mind.

Christ had these same hereditarily impaired human "instruments" (fleshly body) as we have; instruments capable of righteousness or unrighteousness. But his mind, constantly controlled by the indwelling Holy Spirit (having been born of the Spirit), always directed Him into paths of righteousness. Despite enormous temptations, never did He allow His mind to indulge in sinning. In other words, though Christ's humanity had hereditary potential tendencies to sin, He did no sin. Neither did He possess "a tendency to sin," a "bent to evil," a "taint of sin" or "an evil propensity." There is a vast difference between possessing tendencies to sin, and having only the hereditary potential for such tendencies.

The term "sinful nature" should not in any way be confused with the unscriptural, Augustinain term "original sin." Seventh day Adventists don't follow Augustine in this matter.

It's very important for us to realize that the taking of our "sinful nature" did not defile Christ, nor taint His purity, nor did it produce in Him "guile or sinfulness," even though it was the means whereby "He came down to the level of those He wished to save."

Concering Christ's human nature, one speaker clarified it in this way: "Christ took a fallen nature, but not a falling nature; He took a sinful nature, but not a sinning nature. Though Christ was sinless, the body He took was the product of 4000 years of falling and sinning." (See page 3 of Which Gospel?, Dr. & Mrs. Lloyd Rosenvold.)

As long as we accept the true Bible definition of sin, we will never have a problem understanding the quotations that state that, while Christ took upon Himself our "sinful nature," yet He was without sin: clearly, it was for the reason that He never transgressed His Father's law. Whichever spirit is permitted to control the functions of the mind of a man will determine the life and character (the "computer print-out") which it bears. We may choose to be controlled by the Holy Spirit as demonstrated in Christ, or the self and spirit of Satan, as we see in unconverted man.

Notice the following quotes:

"The great work of redemption could be carried out only by the Redeemer taking the place of fallen Adam" (RH Feb. 24, 1874).

"In taking upon Himself man's nature in its fallen condition, Christ did not in the least participate in its sin" (ST June 9, 1898).

"But Jesus accepted humanity when the race had been weakened by four thousand years of sin. Like every child of Adam, He accepted teh results of the working of the great law of heredity." DA 49.

"Christ came to the world to counteract Satan's falsehood that God had made a law which men could not keep. Taking humanity upon Himself, He came to this earth and by a life of obdedience, showed that it is possible for man perfectly to obey the law. Those who accept Christ as their Savior, becoming partakers of his divine nature, are enabled to follow His example, living in obedience to every precept of the law" (FILB 114).