Christ's human nature...

[Dr. Rich]

Another EGW quote: ""The wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23. While life is the inheritance of the righteous, death is the portion of the wicked. Moses declared to Israel: "I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil." Deuteronomy 30:15. The death referred to in these scriptures is not that pronounced upon Adam, for all mankind suffer the penalty of his transgression. It is "the second death" that is placed in contrast with everlasting life." GC 544.

Here is another proof that EGW did not know or understand what she was talking about. The penalty was the second death and to have been killed on the same day he ate from the tree.--to which ADAM never paid--and couldn't or you and I would not be here. Adam's natrual death was the conquense of being kept from the tree of life--as all of us are kept from. Adam was made mortal--something that many don't understand.

[John317]

.. Adam was made mortal--something that many don't understand.

Adam was not made so that he had to die. But you are right that he wasn't made immortal. He was made so that he wouldn't need to die if he ate of the tree of life. But as you point out, God didn't give Adam access to the Tree of Life. He would only have been able to keep eating from it, and been made immortal, if he had passed the test of obedience. So Adam and Eve were made "conditionally immortal." In other words, they wouldn't have died except for their disobedience to God's commandment.Ellen White isn't saying anything different from this.

[John317]

... Nothing you have quoted from SDA material states that infants are born guilty of sin. We are born with sinful flesh, yes. But we are not born guilty of sin.

The Catholic church believes that we are born guilty of sin. (I am not Catholic.) That is why they have infant baptism. Furthermore they believe in the immaculate conception of Mary which caused Mary to be born free of sin and thus able to give birth to Jesus free of sin. It is a train of dominoes of false doctrines. The first domino in the train is that of original sin. Adventists reject that as it is not based on sound Biblical doctrine.

This is all true.

Until about 1956, our beliefs as a church may be summarized by the quote found on page 174 of Bible Readings for the Home. The statement found on that page was changed in the 1949 editions, but it was found in that book in 1914, 1935 and 1942.

Carlyle B. Haynes, the well-known and highly regarded SDA evangelist, said the same thing in his book, Christianity At the Cross Roads, pages 80-83.

They both agree with the 1919 edition of Seventh-day Adventist Source Book for Bible Students, an official publication of the SDA church:

"The Scripture teaches that Jesus, when born of woman, assumed sinful flesh (Hebrew 2:14; Romans 8: 3), and thus became united with man in his fallen condition.... The very essence of Christianity being the experience, 'Christ in you, the hope of glory,' it thus appears that the dogma of the immaculate conception of the Virgin Mary strikes at the very heart of Christianity." (page 220)

[Gerr]

[Dr. Rich]

Thanks Gerry, Your post was very clear. And John, your post was clear too. I can agree with both.

[Dr. Shane]

When reading the book "Seventh-day Adventists Believe..." one has to remember it was written to be a source of information for non-Adventists to inform them what Adventists believe. The wording was carefully selected so that those that disagree with us would not twist it or misunderstand what was trying to be stated. Therefore it does not surprise me that the book does not talk about Christ taking on our sinful flesh since many that disagree with us would use that wording to try to make us look like we are teaching that Christ was born sinful. The book does however say that Christ was neither the pre-fall nor the post-fall Adam. Christ had both the divine and the sinful nature yet He did not use His divine nature - instead He relied on God the Father from His birth.

[Dr. Shane]

"The Bible portrays Jesus' humanity as sinless. His birth was supernatural--He was conceived of the Holy Spirit (Mt 1:20). As a newborn baby He was described as "that Holy One" (Lk 1:35). He took the nature of man in its fallen state, bearing the consequences of sin, NOT ITS SINFULNESS. HE WAS ONE WITH THE HUMAN RACE, EXCEPT IN SIN." P.49.

This is what I have been saying. This is that good, old, Seventh-day Adventist message.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

"The Bible portrays Jesus' humanity as sinless. His birth was supernatural--He was conceived of the Holy Spirit (Mt 1:20). As a newborn baby He was described as "that Holy One" (Lk 1:35). He took the nature of man in its fallen state, bearing the consequences of sin, NOT ITS SINFULNESS. HE WAS ONE WITH THE HUMAN RACE, EXCEPT IN SIN." P.49.

This is what I have been saying. This is that good, old, Seventh-day Adventist message.

G: Pick & choose,huh? How about the REST?

"Jesus Christ took upon Himself OUR NATURE WITH ALL ITS LIABILITIES, BUT HE WAS FREE FROM HEREDITARY CORRUPON OR DEPRAVITY AND ACTUAL SIN." p. 49

"Unlike that of fallen humanity, Jesus' "spiritual nature" is pure and holy, "free from every taint of sin." [/size]It would be a mistake to think He is "altogether human" as we are. ....While His human nature was tempted in all points in which human nature is tempted, He never fell, He never sinned.[size:14pt] NEVER WAS THERE IN HIM AN EVIL PROPENSITY." Ibid.

[Gerr]

We have been so anti-Catholic doctrine for so long that I suspect no SDA writer/preacher would be caught red-handed using words from Catholic doctrine like "original sin". We say the same thing in just different words.

[Dr. Shane]

None of it says that babies are born guilty of sin. It doesn't say it because we don't believe it. Adventists don't believe in original sin. It is not saying the same thing using different words. It is saying we are born with a sinful nature and destined to sin. It does not say we are born guilty of sin.

[pnattmbtc]

G: It is pointless to argue who endorsed whom.

[pnattmbtc]

Gerry: If Christ was born with a sinful nature, with the same inherent propensities for sin as we do, could be indwelt by the Holy Spirit from conception onward, WHY are we not indwelt by that same Spirit from conception onward? Is God playing favoritism? HOW could Jesus in the womb have love for the Father if He had the INHERENT propensity to rebel against God?

P: There's no time limit as to when a person can be indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Even in the womb this is possible.

G: Then why aren't we all?

[Twilight]

Christ was dead to sin, because He was only alive to God.

We too can have that experience. :-)

But first we receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Then the work of sanctification begins.

And as that process goes deeper and deeper, eventually we are led to that Union with God, that Jesus Himself had...

Mark :-)

[Gerr]

None of it says that babies are born guilty of sin.

G: Could you please quote one official publication that says babies are born innocent & sinless?

S: It doesn't say it because we don't believe it. Adventists don't believe in original sin. It is not saying the same thing using different words. It is saying we are born with a sinful nature and destined to sin. It does not say we are born guilty of sin.

G: Then let me ask you again as I have asked again & again: WE ALL DIE IN ADAM. WHY? WE ARE ALL BORN CHILDREN OF WRATH. WHY? WHY DO SUFFER THE PENALTY OF SOMEONE ELSE'S TRANSGRESSION UNLESS THERE IS SOME IMPUTATION OF GUILT?

AND WHAT DID PAUL MEAN WHEN HE SAID: "SIN THAT DWELLS IN ME," "CAPTIVE TO THE LAW OF SIN THAT DWELLS IN MY MEMBERS"???

You can't be innocent if sin DWELLS/LIVES in you. That's why we are born sinners!!!

[Gerr]

Sorry, Mark, but that is not the point under discussion.

[Gerr]

P: If one will consider the historical evidence, it's overwhelming that Ellen White was post-lapsarian.

G: Then you should be able to find ONE EGW quote that says Jesus was born WITH INHERITED PROPENSITIES/INCLINATION TO SIN. Just one would be sufficient. If she endorsed a position that the church does not now believe, did the church abandon it? How do you explain these statements from "SDAs Believe?"

"Christ's humanity was not the Adamic humanity, that is, the humanity of Adam before the fall; nor fallen humanity, that is, in every respect the humanity of Adam after the fall. It was not the Adamic, because it had the innocent infirmities of the fallen. It was not the fallen, because it hever descended into moral impurity. It was, therefore, most literally our humanity, but without sin." p. 47.And in case you missed the excerpts I presented from the book, here are a few more statements:

"The Bible portrays Jesus' humanity as sinless. His birth was supernatural--He was conceived of the Holy Spirit (Mt 1:20). As a newborn baby He was described as "that Holy One" (Lk 1:35). He took the nature of man in its fallen state, bearing the consequences of sin, NOT ITS SINFULNESS. HE WAS ONE WITH THE HUMAN RACE, EXCEPT IN SIN." P.49.

"Jesus Christ took upon Himself OUR NATURE WITH ALL ITS LIABILITIES, BUT HE WAS FREE FROM HEREDITARY CORRUPTION OR DEPRAVITY AND ACTUAL SIN." p. 49

"Unlike that of fallen humanity, Jesus' "spiritual nature" is pure and holy, "free from every taint of sin." It would be a mistake to think He is "altogether human" as we are. ....While His human nature was tempted in all points in which human nature is tempted, He never fell, He never sinned. NEVER WAS THERE IN HIM AN EVIL PROPENSITY." Ibid.

Did the church change position? When?

[Twilight]

Sorry, Mark, but that is not the point under discussion.

I think it relates Gerry.

Consider this.

We are supposed to be "dead to sin".

Which indicates Jesus was dead to sin.

Once we understand that, as a born again individual, maybe we will then understand Jesus' experience and nature. :-)

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

Just coming at it from another angle. :-)

[Dr. Shane]

WE ALL DIE IN ADAM. WHY? WE ARE ALL BORN CHILDREN OF WRATH. WHY? WHY DO SUFFER THE PENALTY OF SOMEONE ELSE'S TRANSGRESSION UNLESS THERE IS SOME IMPUTATION OF GUILT?

AND WHAT DID PAUL MEAN WHEN HE SAID: "SIN THAT DWELLS IN ME," "CAPTIVE TO THE LAW OF SIN THAT DWELLS IN MY MEMBERS"???

These questions have all been answered already in this thread. Let's not go around in circles.

[pnattmbtc]

shane:None of it says that babies are born guilty of sin.

G: Could you please quote one official publication that says babies are born innocent & sinless?

[pnattmbtc]

G: Then let me ask you again as I have asked again & again: WE ALL DIE IN ADAM. WHY? WE ARE ALL BORN CHILDREN OF WRATH. WHY? WHY DO SUFFER THE PENALTY OF SOMEONE ELSE'S TRANSGRESSION UNLESS THERE IS SOME IMPUTATION OF GUILT?

[pnattmbtc]

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.""And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us." The Revised Version says, "The Word became flesh." The theme of redemption will be the science and the song of the eternal ages, and well may it occupy our minds during our short stay here. There is no portion of this great theme that makes such a demand upon our minds in order to appreciate it in any degree, as the subject we shall study to-night,—"The Word became flesh, and dwelt among us." Through Him all things became; now He Himself became. He who had all glory with the Father, now lays aside His glory and becomes flesh. He lays aside His divine mode of existence, and takes the human mode of existence, and God becomes manifest in the flesh. This truth is the very foundation of all truth.

A HELPFUL TRUTH

And Jesus Christ becoming flesh. God being manifest in the flesh, is one of the most helpful truths, one of the most instructive truths, the truth above all truths, which humanity ought to rejoice in. I desire this evening to study this question for our personal, present benefit. Let us command our minds to the utmost, because to comprehend that the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, demands all our mental powers. Let us consider, first, what kind of flesh; for this is the very foundation of this question as it relates to us personally. "Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, He also Himself likewise took part of the same; that through death He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; and deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. For verily He took not on Him the nature of angels; but He took on Him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behooved Him to be made like unto His brethren, that He might bea merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. For in chat He Himself hath suffered, being tempted, He is able to succour

them that are tempted." Heb. 2:14-18. That through death, being made subject to death, taking upon Him the flesh of sin, He might, by His dying, destroy him that had the power of death. "Verily He took not on Him the nature of angels; but He took on Him the seed of Abraham." The margin says, "He taketh not hold of angels, but of the seed of Abraham He taketh hold;" and one version reads, "He helps not angels." We see the reason from the next verse:"Wherefore in all things it behoved Him to be made like unto His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful high priest, in things pertaining to God." "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, and to thy seed, which is Christ." Gal. 3:16. Now verily, He helps the seed of Abraham by Himself becoming the seed of Abraham. God, sending His own

Adam was the representative of the family; therefore his sin was

a representative sin. When Jesus Christ came, He came to take the

place in which Adam had failed. "And so it is written. The first man

Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening

spirit." 1 Cor. 14:45. The second Adam is the man Christ Jesus, and

He came down to unite the human family with the divine family. God

is spoken of as the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, of whom the whole

family in heaven and earth is named. Jesus Christ, the Son of the

living God, came Himself to this part of the family, that He might

win it back again, that there might be a —

REUNITED FAMILY IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD.

He came and took10 the flesh of sin that this family had brought upon itself by sin, and wrought out salvation for them, condemning sin in the flesh

Adam failed in his place, and by the offence of one many were made sinners. Jesus Christ gave Himself, not only for us, but to us, uniting Himself to the family, in order that He might take the place of the first Adam, and as head of the family win back what was lost by the first Adam. The righteousness of Jesus Christ is a representative righteousness, just as the sin of Adam was a representative sin, and Jesus Christ, as the second Adam, gathered to Himself the whole family.

But since the first Adam took his place, there has been a change, and humanity is sinful humanity. The power of righteousness has been lost. To redeem man from the place into which he had fallen, Jesus Christ comes, and takes the very flesh now borne by humanity; He comes in sinful flesh, and takes the case where Adam tried it and failed. He became, not a man, but He became flesh; He became human, and gathered all humanity unto Himself, embraced it in His own infinite mind, and stood as the representative of the whole human family.

Adam was tempted at the very first on the question of appetite. Christ came, and after a forty days' fast the devil tempted Him to use His divine power to feed Himself. And notice, it was in sinful flesh that He was tempted, not the flesh in which Adam fell. This is wondrous truth, but I am wondrous glad that it is so. It follows at once that by birth, l4by being born into the same family, Jesus Christ is my brother in the flesh, "for which cause He is not ashamed to call them brethren." Heb. 2:11. He has come into the family, identified Himself with the family, is both father of the family and brother of the family. As father of the family, He stands for the family. He came to redeem the family, condemning sin in the flesh, uniting divinity with flesh of sin. Jesus Christ made the connection between God and man, that the divine spirit might rest upon humanity. He made the way for humanity.

HE HATH BORNE OUR GRIEFS.

And He came right near to us. He is not one step away from one

of us. He "was made in the likeness of men." Phil. 2:7. He is now

made in the likeness of man, and at the same time He holds His

divinity; He is the divine Son of God. And so, by His divinity joining

itself to humanity, He will restore man to the likeness of God. 16Jesus

Christ, in taking the place of Adam, took our flesh. He took our place

completely, in order that we might take His place. He took our place

with all its consequences, and that meant death, in order that we

Page 6

might take His place with all its consequences, and that is life eternal.

"For He hath made Him to be sin for us, who knew no sin, that we

W. W. Prescott might be made the righteousness of God in Him." 2 Cor. 5:21. He

was not a sinner; but He invited God to treat Him as if He were a

sinner, in order that we, who were sinners, might be treated as if we

were righteous. "Surely He hath borne our griefs and carried our

sorrows; yet we did esteem Him stricken, smitten of God, and

afflicted." Isa. 53:4.

The sorrows that He bore were our sorrows, and

it is actually true that He did so identify Himself with our human

nature as to bear in Himself all the sorrows and all the griefs of all

the human family. "He was wounded for our transgressions, He was

bruised for our inquities; the chastisement of our peace was upon Him

and with His stripes we are healed." What was bruising to Him was

healing to us, and He was bruised in order that we might be healed.

"All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to

his own way; and the Lord hath laid on Him the iniquity of us all."

Isa. 53:6.

And then He died because on Him was laid the iniquity

of us all. There was no sin in Him, but the sins of the whole world

were laid on Him. Behold the Lamb of God, which beareth the sins

of the whole world. "And He is the propitiation for our sins; and not

for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world." 1 John 2:2.

THE PRICE PAID FOR EVERY SOUL.

I want your minds to grasp the truth, that, no matter whether a

man repents or not, yet Jesus Christ has borne his griefs, his sins,

his sorrows, and he is invited to lay them on Christ. If every sinner

in this world should repent with all his soul, and turn to Christ, the

price has been paid.

Jesus did not wait for us to repent before He died

for us. "While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." "Herein is

love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us, and sent His Son

to be the propitiation for our sins." Christ has died in behalf of every

single soul here; He has borne their grief and carried their sorrow;

He simply asks us to lay them on Him, and let Him bear them.

CHRIST OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Furthermore: every one of us was represented in Jesus Christ when

the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us. We were all there in

Jesus Christ. We were all represented in Adam after the flesh; and

when Christ came as the second Adam, He stepped into the place of

the first Adam, and thus we are all represented in Him. He invites

us to step into the spiritual family. He has formed this new family,

of which He is the head. He is the new man. In Him we have the union

of the divine and the human.

In that new family, every one of us is represented. "And as I may

so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, paid tithes in Abraham. For

Page 7

he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him."

When Melchisedec went out to meet Abraham returning from the

spoil, Abraham paid to him a tenth of all. Levi was still in the loins W. W. Prescott

of his father Abraham; but inasmuch as he was a descendant of

Abraham, what Abraham did, the Scripture says that Levi did in

Abraham. Levi descended from Abraham according to the flesh. He

had not been born when Abraham paid tithe; but in that Abraham

paid tithe, he paid tithe also.

It is exactly so in this spiritual family.

What Christ did as head of this new family, we did in Him. He was

our representative; He became flesh; He became we. He did not

become simply a man, but He became flesh, and every one that should

be born into His family was represented in Jesus Christ when He

lived here in the flesh. You see, then, that all that Christ did, every

one who connects himself with this family is given credit for as doing

it in Christ. Christ was not a representative outside him, disconnected

from him; but as Levi paid tithe in Abraham, every one who should

afterwards be born into this spiritual family, did what Christ did.

THE NEW BIRTH.

See what this means with reference to vicarious sufferings. It was

not that Jesus Christ came from outside, and simply stepped into our

place as an outsider; but by joining Himself to us by birth, all

humanity was brought together in the divine head, Jesus Christ. He

suffered on the cross. Then it was the whole family in Jesus Christ

that was crucified. "For the love of Christ constraineth us; because

we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead," or as the

Revised Version says, "All died." 2 Cor. 5:14.

What we want in our experience is to enter into the fact that we did die in Him. But while

it is true that Jesus Christ paid the whole price, bore every grief, was

humanity itself, yet it is also true that no man receives benefit from

that except he receives Christ, except he is born again. Only those

who are twice born can enter into the kingdom of God. Those who

are born in the flesh must be born again, born of the Spirit, in order

that what Jesus Christ did in the flesh, we may avail ourselves of,

that we may really be in Him.

The work of Christ is to bestow the character of God on us, and in

the meantime God looks upon Christ and His perfect character instead

of upon our sinful character.

Page 8

*

ter. The very moment that we empty ourselves, or let Christ empty us, of

self, and believe on Jesus Christ ind receive Him as our personal Saviour,

God looks upon Him as indeed our personal representative. Then He

does not see us and all our sin; He sees Christ.

OUR REPRESENTATIVE IN

THE COURTS OF HEAVEN

"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men,

the man Christ Jesus." 1 Tim. 2:5. There is a man in heaven now,—

the man Christ Jesus,—bearing our human nature; but it is no

longer a flesh of sin; it is glorified. Having come here and lived in a

flesh of sin, He died; and in that He died, He died unto sin; and in

that He lives, He lives unto God. When He died, He freed Himself

from the flesh of sin, and He was raised glorified. Jesus Christ

came here as our representative, travelled the path back to heaven

in the family, died unto sin, and was raised glorified. He lived as

the Son of man, grew up as the Son of man, ascended as the Son

of man, and today, Jesus Christ, our own representative, our own

brother, the man Christ Jesus, is in heaven, living to make interces-

sion for us. He has been through every one of our experiences. Does not

He know what the cross means? He went to heaven by the way of

the cross, and He says, "Come." That is what Christ has done by

becoming flesh. Our human minds stand appalled before the problem.

How shall we express in human language what was done for us,

when "the Word became flesh, and dwelt amoung us"? How shall we

express what God has given to us?

When He gave His Son, He gave the most precious gift of heaven,

and He gave Him never to take Him back again. To all eternity

the Son of man will bear in His body the marks that sin made;

forever He will be Jesus Christ, our Saviour, our Elder Brother.

That is what God has done for us in giving His Son to us.

CHRIST IDENTIFIED WITH US

This union of the divine and the human has brought Jesus

Christ very near to us. There is not one too low down for

Christ to be there with him. He identified Himself completely

with this human family. In the judgment, when the rewards

and punishments are meted out, He says,"Inasmuch as ye have

done it unto one of the least of these, My brethren, ye have done

it unto Me." One version reads, "Inasmuch as ye have done it unto

one of the least of these My littlebrothers, ye have done it unto Me."

Christ looks upon every one of the human family as His. When

humanity suffers, He suffers.

He is humanity. He has joined Himself to this family. He is our

head; and when in any part of the body there is a throb of pain felt,

the head feels that throb of pain. He has united Himself with us,

thus uniting us with ^.od; for we read in Matthew:"Behold, a virgin

shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call His

name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us"

UNITY IN CHRIST

Jesus Christ thus united Himself with the human family, that He might be with us by being in us, just as God was with Him by being in Him. The very purpose

of His work was that He might be in us, and that, as He represented

the Father, so the children, the Father, and the Elder Brother

might be united in Him.Let us see what His thought

was in His last prayer: "That they all may be one; as Thou, Father,

art in Me, and I in Thee, that they also may be one in us.""And the

glory which Thou gavest Me, I have given them; that they may

be one, even as we are one; I in them, and Thou in Mé,' tfíáT ffiey

may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that

Thou hast sent Me, and hast loved them as Thou hast loved

Me. Father, I will that they also, whom Thou hast given Me, be

with Me where I am; that they may behold My glory, which Thou

hast given Me; for Thou lovedest Me before the foundation of the

world. O righteous Father, the world hath not known Thee; but I

have known Thee, and these have known that Thou hast sent Me.

And I have declared Thy name unto them, and will declare it."

And the last words of His prayer were: "That the love wherewith

Thou hast loved Me may be in them, and Í in them'.'John 17:21-26.

And as He was ascending, His parting words to His disciples

Page 9

were, "Lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world."

Matt. 28:20. By being in us, He is with us alway, and that this might

be possible, that He might be in us, He came and took our flesh.

This also is the way in which the holiness of Jesus works. He

had a holiness that enabled him to come and dwell in sinful flesh, and

glorify sinful flesh by His presence in it; and that is what He did, so

that when He was raised from the dead, He was glorified. His purpose

was that having purified sinful flesh by His indwelling presence, He

might now come and purify sinful flesh in us, and glorify sinful flesh in

us. He "shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto

His glorious body, according to the working whereby He is able even

to subdue all things unto Himself." Phil. 3: 21. "For whom He did

foreknow, He also did predestinate, to be conformed to the image of

His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren."

Rom. 8:29.

THE ELECTION OF GRACE

ljex me say that in this idea is bound up the whole question of

predestination. There is a predes-tination; it is a predestination of

character. There is an election; it is an election of character. Every

one who believes on Jesus Christ is elected, and all the power of

God is behind that election, that he shall bear the image of God.

Bearing that image, he is predestinated to all eternity in Christ's

kingdom; but every one who does not bear the image of God is

predestinated unto death. It is a predestination of God in Christ

Jesus. Christ provides the character, and offers it to any one who

will believe in Him.

THE HEART AND LIFE OF CHRISTIANITY

Let us enter into the experience that God has given Jesus

Christ to us to dwell in our sinful flesh, to work out in our sinful

flesh what He worked out when He was here. He came and lived

here that we might through Him reflect the image of God. This

is the very heart of Christianity. Anything contrary to it is not

Christianity."Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits,

whether they are of God; because many false prophets are gone out

into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit

that confess^ h that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God; and

every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the

flesh is not of God." 1 John 4:1-3.

Now that cannot mean simply to acknowledge that Jesus Christ was here and lived in the flesh. The devils made that acknowledgment. They knew that Christ had come

in the flesh. The faith that comes by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus

Christ is come in my flesh; He dwells in my flesh; I have received

Him." That is the heart and life of Christianity.The difficulty with the

Christianity of today is that Christ does not dwell in the hearts of

those professing His name. He is an outsider, one looked at from afar,

as an example. But He is more than an example to us. He made known

to us what God's ideal of humanity is, and then He came and lived it

out before us, that we might see what it is to be in the image of God.

Then He died, and ascended to His Father, sending forth His Spirit,

His own representative, to live in us, that the life which He lived in

the flesh we may live over again.

This is Christianity.

CHRIST MUST DWELL

IN THE HEART

It is not enough to talk of

Christ and of the beauty of His

character. Christianity without

Christ dwelling in the heart is

not genuine Christianity. He only

is a genuine Christian who has

Christ dwelling in his heart, and

we can live the life of Christ only

by having Him dwelling in us.

He wants us to lay hold upon the

life and power of Christianity.

Do not be satisfied with anything

else. Heed no one who would lead

you in any other path. "Christ in

Page 10

Page 11

R. F. Cottrell, Missionary, Author

ST 10/13/42

p. 10, col. 2

In the second chapter (of Hebrews) He is the Son of man, a partaker

of human nature, of our flesh and blood.

Christian Edwardson, Author

Facts of Faith, 1942

pp. 204, 205

This argument, however, is based on a misunderstanding, caused

by overlooking one word in the text. Antichrist was not to deny that

Christ had come in flesh, but was to deny that He had "come in the

flesh," in "the same" kind of flesh, as the human race He came to

save. . . . On this vital difference hinges the real "truth of the gospel."

Did Christ come all the way down to make contact with the fallen

race, or only part way, so that we must have saints, popes, and priests

intercede for us with Christ who is removed too far from fallen

humanity and its needs to make direct contact with the individual

sinner? Right here lies the great divide that parts Protestantism from

Roman Catholicism

Through sin man has separated himself from God, and his fallen

nature is opposed to the divine will. . . Only through Christ, our

Mediator, can man be rescued from sin, and again brought into

connection with the source of purity and power.

But in order to become such a connecting link Christ had to partake

both of the divinity of God and of the humanity of man, so that He

with His divine arm could encircle God, and with His human arm

embrace man, thus connecting both in His own person. In this union

of the human with the divine lies the "mystery" of the gospel, the

secret of power to lift man from his degradation. "Great is the mystery

of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh." I Timothy 3:16. The

"mystery," or secret of power to live a godly life in human flesh, was

manifest in the life of Jesus Christ while on earth. . . .

But mark! It was fallen man that was to be rescued from sin. And

to make contact with him Christ had to condescend to take our nature

upon Himself (not some higher kind of flesh). "Forasmuch then as

the children are partakers of flesh and blood, He also Himself likewise

took part of the same . . . Wherefore in all things ii behoved Him

to be made like unto His brethren." Hebrews 2:14, 17. This text is

so worded that it cannot be misunderstood. Christ "took part of the

same" flesh and blood as ours; He came in "the" flesh. To deny this

is the mark of Anti-Christ.

[pnattmbtc]

Trying to search is ridiculously slow for me right now, so a bit later I'll include the endorsement from EGW regarding this sermon by Prescott. She endorsed this specific sermon in glowing terms, from memory, something about truth separated from error, rich nuggets. I included the sermon because it pertains to our discussion, and because of the specific reference from EGW.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

WE ALL DIE IN ADAM. WHY? WE ARE ALL BORN CHILDREN OF WRATH. WHY? WHY DO SUFFER THE PENALTY OF SOMEONE ELSE'S TRANSGRESSION UNLESS THERE IS SOME IMPUTATION OF GUILT?

AND WHAT DID PAUL MEAN WHEN HE SAID: "SIN THAT DWELLS IN ME," "CAPTIVE TO THE LAW OF SIN THAT DWELLS IN MY MEMBERS"???

These questions have all been answered already in this thread. Let's not go around in circles.

G: What's the post # where you answered the questions?

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry

shane:None of it says that babies are born guilty of sin.

G: Could you please quote one official publication that says babies are born innocent & sinless?

Quote:

He(Christ) arose from the tomb enshrouded with a cloud of angels in wondrous power and glory—the Deity and humanity combined. He took in His grasp the world over which Satan claimed to preside as his lawful territory, and by His wonderful work in giving His life, He restored the whole race of men to favor with God.(1SM 343)

"Restored the whole race of men to favor with God" includes newborns.

G: So NO ONE is now under condemnation? ALL are now saved?