Christ's human nature...

[Sonny]

My answers are as follows:

What then ? Are we better than they? Not at all ; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE (Romans 3:9,10)

But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. (Galatians 3:22)

Infants must be included in the "none righteous" and "everyone under sin". We aren't writing of the new birth experience here.

[John317]

(quoting Ellen White): "We have reason for ceaseless gratitude to God that Christ, by His perfect obedience has won back the heaven that Adam lost through disobedience. Adam sinned and the children of Adam share his guilt and its consequences. But Jesus bore the guilt of Adam, and all the children of Adam that will flee to Christ, the second Adam, may escape the penalty of transgression." (Sons and Daughters, page 120)

Now I am a bit uncomfortable with the noun "guilt". I prefer the noun "condemnation".

I agree, and that's how Ellen White is using the word "guilt" in this instance. She is not saying that we are held "guilty" by God of eating from the tree, but we are condemned because of it just the same. In the same way, we did not die on the cross, but we reap the consequences of that act.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

I think the bible does indicate that Jesus was different to "fallen Adam".

I do not think Jesus had the Rom 7:14-25 experience, rather the Rom 8 experience.

But we can have exactly the same experience as Him when we are born again.

What about before we're born again? Doesn't the born again experience also begin our journey towards a natural propensity towards God? Did Jesus develop a natural propensity towards God thru practice?

Jesus came in "born again" and never experienced anything else.

He was born surrendered to God.

Like Adam.

Then He maintained that.

But He had the physical body of a man, but that "flesh" was never given the opportunity to "rise up".

It was crucified from the moment Christ was born.

Christ started from the positive, whereas we start from the negative.

That is my understanding. :-)

Mark

[Twilight]

Here is an interesting statement from Ellen White:

"All may now obtain holy hearts, but it is not correct to claim in this life to have holy flesh . The apostle Paul declares, 'I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing' (Rom. 7:18).'" (Ref unknown)

Here is what the above tells me:

a] As a believer I can have my mind transformed, i.e., I can have a mind in harmony with God's law, but simultaneously,

b] my human body is corrupted by the sinful nature.

So as a believer I can have a mind in harmony with God's law of love, but as a child of Adam I have a humanity that is contaminated by the sin virus (so to speak), which of itself disqualifies me for heaven.

In order to be fully qualified for heaven I must have both a holy mind and holy flesh. The latter simply means I must obtain a glorified body free from the virus of sin before I can enter heaven.

The born again believer has the "heart" and the "flesh" cut away from each other.

The flesh disconnnected from the heart is "dead".

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

We have to remember that Jesus was our Example.

Example of what?

A) Example of how a non-bornagain believer can walk with God?

Or an Example of how a bornagain believer can walk with God?

It was "B".

So He was dead to sin.

His heart was circumcised from the flesh.

His flesh was dead.

Jesus was our example of a "Born Again" believer walking with God.

And that was all He ever had to be.

[Twilight]

We however are born in the Rom 7:14-25 experience.

Jesus never had that experience.

He was born in and maintained the Rom 8 experience.

[skyblue888]

Since John the Baptist and Jesus were both born again from the womb, it is possible for every child of Adam after the fall to be born again from the womb on account of the parent's faith. If the parent's faith is of the right order, they may claim the merits of Christ for their offspring that they may be born from above from the womb.

This is my understanding.

sky :)

[Twilight]

Since John the Baptist and Jesus were both born again from the womb, it is possible for every child of Adam after the fall to be born again from the womb on account of the parent's faith. If the parent's faith is of the right order, they may claim the merits of Christ for their offspring that they may be born from above from the womb.

This is my understanding.

sky

Mine too. :-)

Mark

[skyblue888]

We however are born in the Rom 7:14-25 experience.

Jesus never had that experience.

He was born in and maintained the Rom 8 experience.

Twilight

___________________________

Mark, the experience described in Romans 7 is that of a professed Christian. Those who fall into this category are professed Christians who have been instructed in the law. They have a knowledge of the law. They know what the law requires and they have a will to do what the law requires of them but they lack the power, they lack the spiritual grace that would enable them to accomplish the will of God. They have not yet found the remedy provided for sin. They are unwilling sinners. They are church goers, may have been for many years. In the book of Revelation these are described as those who are "striving to overcome but are ready to die."

Agree?

sky

[Twilight]

We however are born in the Rom 7:14-25 experience.

Jesus never had that experience.

He was born in and maintained the Rom 8 experience.

Twilight

___________________________

Mark, the experience described in Romans 7 is that of a professed Christian. Those who fall into this category are professed Christians who have been instructed in the law. They have a knowledge of the law. They know what the law requires and they have a will to do what the law requires of them but they lack the power, they lack the spiritual grace that would enable them to accomplish the will of God. They have not yet found the remedy provided for sin. They are unwilling sinners. They are church goers, may have been for many years. In the book of Revelation these are described as those who are "striving to overcome but are ready to die."

Agree?

sky

I do agree.

But I also think it is a good basis for showing the difference between Christ and Man at a very basic level. :-)

[skyblue888]

Since John the Baptist and Jesus were both born again from the womb, it is possible for every child of Adam after the fall to be born again from the womb on account of the parent's faith. If the parent's faith is of the right order, they may claim the merits of Christ for their offspring that they may be born from above from the womb.

This is my understanding.

sky

________________

Mine too. :-)

Mark

_________________

Great! :)

[Twilight]

I think the principle of the difference is there, between a carnal man and a born again man.

[skyblue888]

We however are born in the Rom 7:14-25 experience.

Jesus never had that experience.

He was born in and maintained the Rom 8 experience.

Twilight

___________________________

Mark, the experience described in Romans 7 is that of a professed Christian. Those who fall into this category are professed Christians who have been instructed in the law. They have a knowledge of the law. They know what the law requires and they have a will to do what the law requires of them but they lack the power, they lack the spiritual grace that would enable them to accomplish the will of God. They have not yet found the remedy provided for sin. They are unwilling sinners. They are church goers, may have been for many years. In the book of Revelation these are described as those who are "striving to overcome but are ready to die."

Agree?

sky

__________________

I do agree.

But I also think it is a good basis for showing the difference between Christ and Man at a very basic level. :-

Twilight

____________________

What exactly did you mean by saying that we were born into the Rom.7:14-25 experience?

sky

[Twilight]

We however are born in the Rom 7:14-25 experience.

Jesus never had that experience.

He was born in and maintained the Rom 8 experience.

Twilight

___________________________

Mark, the experience described in Romans 7 is that of a professed Christian. Those who fall into this category are professed Christians who have been instructed in the law. They have a knowledge of the law. They know what the law requires and they have a will to do what the law requires of them but they lack the power, they lack the spiritual grace that would enable them to accomplish the will of God. They have not yet found the remedy provided for sin. They are unwilling sinners. They are church goers, may have been for many years. In the book of Revelation these are described as those who are "striving to overcome but are ready to die."

Agree?

sky

__________________

I do agree.

But I also think it is a good basis for showing the difference between Christ and Man at a very basic level. :-

Twilight

____________________

What exactly did you mean by saying that we were born into the Rom.7:14-25 experience?

sky

Think about this Sky.

The Gentiles, not knowing the Law, but having the Law written in their hearts, are a Law unto themselves (paraphrase).

So the Rom 7:14-25 experience can also be applied to those that follow God, without the full light of "truth".

I know it is stretching the usage, but it is the principle I am trying to make.

We can only ever have the Rom 7:14-25 experience, as Isreal or Gentile, without the merits of Christ and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

So this is the best mankind can obtain to outside of that experience.

So we are in effect "born into this" or "limited by this".

My thoughts are "clarifying" as we discuss this, so bare with me. :-)

[skyblue888]

I was asking because the way you put at first is that it sounded like you were saying one can experience Rom.7 in the womb! :)

[Sonny]

The main question is does an infant who dies at birth need a Savior?

[Guest]

Why is that the "main" question?

[Sonny]

Since John the Baptist and Jesus were both born again from the womb---

The human mind of Christ was kept under control by God's Spirit from conception. He was conceived "born again" from the moment God united Christ's Deity with our humanity in Mary's womb.

If the human part of Christ took our sinful nature then He came under the curse as did every child of Adam. This is not imply that His mind sinned or that it was controlled by the sin nature. He never sinned by even a thought.

However, if we are going to make the argument that the human Christ took our sinful nature upon Himself then the human Christ came under condemnation for having a sinful nature.

Let's take two verses into consideration that seem to agree:

For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. (2 Corinthians 5:21)

But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. (Galatians 4:4,5)

I see two points:

a] Christ, who never sinned, was "made sin". To me this would infer that His humanity stood condemned for having a sinful nature.

b] Since the human Christ was born of a woman He came under the condemnation of the law again not for sinning, but for taking our nature.

I'm thinking out loud here.

[Sonny]

Why is that the "main" question?

Because it has been inferred that infants who die before committing a deed of outward sin are not sinners. Clearly those born as children of Adam have their minds controlled by their natures from conception. The two - the nature and the mind - are in complete agreement. They are a unit.

[Gerr]

The main question is does an infant who dies at birth need a Savior?

Yes!!! Just like everybody else!

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

whether it's Adam's guilt or the "sin that dwells in me" that condemns me at conception or at birth, it is still NOT sin of my OWN doing.

I think a problem here is the concept of time. Christ died for our sins before we ever committed them. In the same respect, when we are born, we are condemned for our sins before we commit them. God sees our whole experience. He sees the beginning from the end. He knows what we will do before we do it. In fact, He died for what we will do before we do it.

G: Shane, I find it VERY curious that you consider it unjust for a newborn to be condemned for the sin of Adam, and yet seem to be perfectly contented that an innocent baby (as you claim a newborn is) is condemned for a sin that it will commit in the future BEFORE he commits them!!!

[Gerr]

Why is that the "main" question?

G: Because your answer will show whether you REALLY believe a baby is innocent at birth or not, and whether you REALLY believe Jesus had inherited exactly as the fallen nature of Adam was. It cuts to the chase. I wish I had thought of the question first!

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Sonny

(quoting Ellen White): "We have reason for ceaseless gratitude to God that Christ, by His perfect obedience has won back the heaven that Adam lost through disobedience. Adam sinned and the children of Adam share his guilt and its consequences. But Jesus bore the guilt of Adam, and all the children of Adam that will flee to Christ, the second Adam, may escape the penalty of transgression." (Sons and Daughters, page 120)

Now I am a bit uncomfortable with the noun "guilt". I prefer the noun "condemnation".

I agree, and that's how Ellen White is using the word "guilt" in this instance. She is not saying that we are held "guilty" by God of eating from the tree, but we are condemned because of it just the same. In the same way, we did not die on the cross, but we reap the consequences of that act.

G: I agree with your last sentence. The imputation of guilt to the children of Adam is analogous indeed to the imputation of righteousness to those who accept Christ. ESV | 1 Co 15:22 "For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive."

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Sonny

We are born selfish, which in turn means our thoughts are self-centered. This, I believe, the law also condemns.

This takes us back to the issue of prenatal sin. If, as a baby, we are guilty of sin due to selfish thoughts, then we may well have had selfish thoughts while in the womb. I don't think the birth canal has some kind of property that causes the child to start making selfish thoughts with their first breath of air.

G: I thought you were not into speculation?

[Gerr]

Since John the Baptist and Jesus were both born again from the womb, it is possible for every child of Adam after the fall to be born again from the womb on account of the parent's faith. If the parent's faith is of the right order, they may claim the merits of Christ for their offspring that they may be born from above from the womb.

This is my understanding.

sky

G: There's a BIG difference. Jesus was conceived through the Holy Spirit, the Baptist was not. And the latter still needed the Lamb of God to take away his sin/s.