Christ's human nature...

[Twilight]

John 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 "Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'

The Son of God does not mention entering into His death as a requirement, but water baptizm and born of the Spirit of God.

Death "is" a requirement to the new birth experience:

Jhn 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

Jhn 12:25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

Jesus used this analogy of death then life, primarily in regard to Himself.

But it also applies to us.

We have to be crucified with Christ:

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

[wayfinder]

Jeremiah 7:30 NAS

"For the sons of Judah have done that which is evil in My sight," declares the LORD, "they have set their detestable things in the house which is called by My name, to defile it.

Goodness and evil, sinless and sin, righteousness and unrighteousness, do not dwell in the same house, one or the other must leave.

Matthew 12:25 NAS

And knowing their thoughts Jesus said to them, "Any kingdom divided against itself is laid waste ; and any city or house divided against itself will not stand.

Ezekiel discribes the Glory of God leaving His Sanctuary, because of the detestable idols and things that had been placed in it (Eze. 10).

John 17:

17 "Sanctify them in the truth ; Your word is truth.

18 "As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world.

19 "For their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth.

20 "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word ;

21 that they may all be one ; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.

In this "Priestly prayer", the Son of God asks His Father to sanctify His disciples with the truth and then to sanctify those also who believe in Him through their word, that the "oneness" which He and His Father have may be realized by them also. The key is that first we must be sanctified by the truth and them we will have the Spirit of God dwell in us, because nothing sinful remains in us after our sanctification.

Sanctification/consecration is the process by which one is "set-apart" or to become holy. The word saints can just as well be translated holy people.

John 8:31 So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine ; 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."

I find it interesting that Jesus says "My word" here and in His prayer He says "those who come to believe through "their" (in this case John writing Jesus word). We are sanctified by the truth and the truth sets us free. Why not seek the truth, instead of death?

[Twilight]

Jeremiah 7:30 NAS

"For the sons of Judah have done that which is evil in My sight," declares the LORD, "they have set their detestable things in the house which is called by My name, to defile it.

Goodness and evil, sinless and sin, righteousness and unrighteousness, do not dwell in the same house, one or the other must leave.

Matthew 12:25 NAS

And knowing their thoughts Jesus said to them, "Any kingdom divided against itself is laid waste ; and any city or house divided against itself will not stand.

Ezekiel discribes the Glory of God leaving His Sanctuary, because of the detestable idols and things that had been placed in it (Eze. 10).

John 17:

17 "Sanctify them in the truth ; Your word is truth.

18 "As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world.

19 "For their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth.

20 "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word ;

21 that they may all be one ; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.

In this "Priestly prayer", the Son of God asks His Father to sanctify His disciples with the truth and then to sanctify those also who believe in Him through their word, that the "oneness" which He and His Father have may be realized by them also. The key is that first we must be sanctified by the truth and them we will have the Spirit of God dwell in us, because nothing sinful remains in us after our sanctification.

Sanctification/consecration is the process by which one is "set-apart" or to become holy. The word saints can just as well be translated holy people.

John 8:31 So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine ; 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."

I find it interesting that Jesus says "My word" here and in His prayer He says "those who come to believe through "their" (in this case John writing Jesus word). We are sanctified by the truth and the truth sets us free. Why not seek the truth, instead of death?

God has never made perfection in ones own strength the condition for receiving the Holy Spirit.

The only condition for receiving the Holy Spirit, is looking unto Jesus, continually.

And continuing to look unto Jesus.

We must never look to our own works, as if these have some "merit" to earn the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

But we must continue to look onto Jesus lifted up on the Cross.

That is the condition for receiving and maintaining the presence of the Holy Spirit.

[wayfinder]

Matthew 5:48 NAS

"Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

I guess Jesus was misleading us when He taught that we must become holy through the process of sanctification and then telling us what that process involved and telling us that we should spend the bulk of our time in seeking the kingdom of God and His righteousness.

Matthew 6:33 NAS

"But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you

[Dr. Rich]

Onward Christian Zombies!

[Twilight]

Matthew 5:48 NAS

"Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

I guess Jesus was misleading us when He taught that we must become holy through the process of sanctification and then telling us what that process involved and telling us that we should spend the bulk of our time in seeking the kingdom of God and His righteousness.

Matthew 6:33 NAS

"But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you

When Jesus told us to be perfect, He was pointing out that we need to love our enemies like the Father does.

Implicit in that, is the fact that only the Father can do that.

And we need that strength from Him to achieve that.

So I do not think you can use this here to argue that one must be "perfect" before they receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, as this text does not mention that experience.

[Sonny]

Why do you go from the Carnal state, to the glorified state Sonny?

[Sonny]

According to Paul, when you are crucified with Christ your dead and Christ's spirit gives life to your dead flesh.

Christ was crucified over two thousand years ago. He wasn't crucified afresh when you accepted him, yet you claim that you died with Him. How can this be since you were born thousands of years after Christ died?

Also if your nature is dead then you would have no struggle. Clearly Galatians chapter 5 proves that even after conversion we still all struggle with the sin nature:

5:16 So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17 For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want.

If the believer's nature is dead then there would be no struggle, but that's not the case.

[Sonny]

I feel I'm getting a bit sidetracked. So I'm returning to the subject, "Christ's human nature".

The big question for me is was Christ made sin or is the Bible kidding? If Christ didn't become sin then the law of God didn't have a legal right to condemn Him as the Son of Man. The law condemns sin - not just sinful acts and thoughts, but indwelling or inward sin.

We sin because we have sinful natures. Lucifer's sin is unexplainable. The Bible refers to his development of sin as a mystery. How could a sinless being, made in the image of God, develop sin? How could Adam & Eve, made after the image of their Creator, sin? The Bible gives no answers. We will have to learn about this in heaven. It's far beyond our comprehension so apparently it will have to wait.

Christ was made sin because as the Son of Man He took the Adamic life that stood condemned. The same with us. See Galatians 3:23

Now before faith came (i.e., before we believed), we were imprisoned and guarded under the law until faith would be revealed.

To be "under the law" means to be under its condemnation, not only for outward sins, but also for sinful thoughts including our sinful nature.

Christ, as a man, was never guilty of sinning. He didn't sin even by thought, but since He took our fallen humanity He associated Himself with our condemnation. He literally came down to our level.

[wayfinder]

Other than the writings of Paul, is there anything in the Bible that says that Christ was made sin? Maybe Paul is kidding.

[Sonny]

You are kidding about Paul kidding, right?

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died; 15 and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again. 16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer (i.e., because He took to heaven a glorified humanity free from sin). 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. 18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation. 20 Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ's behalf, be reconciled to God. 21 For He (God the Father) made Him who knew no sin (as the Son of God) to be sin (as the Son of Man) for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

[Musicman1228]

Did Jesus tell any of His eyewitness disciples that He (Jesus) would become sin for them? And if Jesus DID become sin for us then how could He not be the PERFECT Passover Lamb and purchase a Kingdom for God (Rev.5:9-10)?

If either of these questions can be answered in the affirmative then that would call into question what Paul wrote about Jesus becoming sin, and that would call into question to source from which Paul got his information.

[John317]

With moderator's hat on:

Keep the exchanges on the subject and don't hijack the thread by getting off onto a debate about the canon of the NT and Paul's alleged differences with the Gospel of John. All posts that don't follow this instruction will be deleted.

[wayfinder]

No, I am very serious, Paul is the only person, claiming God given authority, to say such things. The following is a text which on the surface may appear to say that Jesus bore sin, but the guilt offering (see verse 10)was a restitution offering and was, many times, offered with a sin offering, sin was transfered to the sin offering before it was slain. Isaiah does not call the Massiah a sin offering, he calls Him a guilt/restitution offering. Through His restoritive act the Son of God returned the authority of the kingdom of God, back to God, He redeemed the kingdom and fills it with the righteous whom He has purchased with His blood. No where in this passage does Isaiah say He bore our sin or was made sin. The Hebrew word for iniquity (`avon) has several meanings for iniquity and one of those is "consequence of or punishment for iniquity".

Isaiah 53:1 Who has believed our message ? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed ? 2 For He grew up before Him like a tender shoot, And like a root out of parched ground ; He has no stately form or majesty That we should look upon Him, Nor appearance that we should be attracted to Him. 3 He was despised and forsaken of men, A man of sorrows and acquainted with grief ; And like one from whom men hide their face He was despised, and we did not esteem Him. 4 Surely our griefs He Himself bore, And our sorrows He carried ; Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken, Smitten of God, and afflicted. 5 But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities ; The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, And by His scourging we are healed. 6 All of us like sheep have gone astray, Each of us has turned to his own way ; But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all To fall on Him.

7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted, Yet He did not open His mouth ; Like a lamb that is led to slaughter, And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers, So He did not open His mouth. 8 By oppression and judgment He was taken away; And as for His generation, who considered That He was cut off out of the land of the living For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due? 9 His grave was assigned with wicked men, Yet He was with a rich man in His death, Because He had done no violence, Nor was there any deceit in His mouth.

10 But the LORD was pleased To crush Him, putting Him to grief ; If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand. 11 As a result of the anguish of His soul, He will see it and be satisfied ; By His knowledge the Righteous One, My Servant, will justify the many, As He will bear their iniquities.

[John317]

Paul's writings in the NT are inspired and part of the Bible, and as I said, this is not the place for debating that issue. All the Bible is legitimate authority in this discussion, and that includes all the NT.

[Musicman1228]

Paul's writings in the NT are inspired and part of the Bible, and as I said, this is not the place for debating that issue. All the Bible is legitimate authority in this discussion, and that includes all the NT.

In your opinion. Your proof is your faith.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Why do you go from the Carnal state, to the glorified state Sonny?

Who is speaking of a carnal state? I simply stated that if my sinful nature was dead that I wouldn't be sinning. But the fact is none can make that claim. That's why I quoted this: "For there isn't a righteous person on earth who does only good and never sins."

Quote:

Now I always get a little suspicious when we start to brush off scripture as a "metaphor".

The Bible is full of metaphors that point to different spiritual applications.

In Romans 7,8 & 9 there are three stages of Christian experience Paul alludes to:

1. The failing Christian, the carnal Christian 7:14 - 25.

2. The Born Again Christian, the Spirit filled Christian, Rom 8.

3. The Glorifed Christian (end of Rom 8).

My concern is that you are confusing the experience of the Glorified Christian with the Born Again Christian.

We are dead to sin by faith at point 2.

But dead to sin totally at point 3.

[Twilight]

Dr. R:

but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead,

[Twilight]

If the believer's nature is dead then there would be no struggle, but that's not the case.

The struggle is for the believer to accept by faith that his flesh is indeed dead...

Have you ever looked at it that way Sonny?

[Sonny]

if Jesus DID become sin for us then how could He not be the PERFECT Passover Lamb?

Christ was that perfect passover lamb because His performance was perfect. He lived a perfect life in our sinful flesh. Sunday morning Christ as the Son of Man was raised with holy flesh.

[Sonny]

The struggle is for the believer to accept by faith that his flesh is indeed dead...

The flesh is by no means dead. If it were then we would all have holy flesh - a glorified humanity free from indwelling sin, i.e., the sin nature.

"There can be no self-exaltation, no boastful claim to freedom from sin, on the part of those who walk in the shadow of Calvary’s cross. They feel that it was their sin which caused the agony that broke the heart of the Son of God, and this thought will lead them to self-abasement. Those who live nearest to Jesus discern most clearly the frailty and sinfulness of humanity, and their only hope is in the merit of a crucified and risen Saviour." (The Great Controversy, p 471)

"It is evident that where a claim to sinlessness is made, there the law of God has not been written in the heart; for the commandments of God are exceeding broad, and are discerners of the thoughts and intents of the heart. The apostle speaks words of encouragement to those who realize that they are sinners, and says, “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all righteousness.” “If we say we have no sin,” when our thoughts, words, and actions, reflected from the law of God, the great moral mirror, reveal us as transgressors, we make God a liar, and prove that his word is not in us." (ref?)

"When human beings receive holy flesh, they will not remain on the earth, but will be taken to heaven. While sin is forgiven in this life, its results are not now wholly removed. It is at His coming that Christ is to "change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body"(Phil. 3:21)" (2SM, p 33)

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

The struggle is for the believer to accept by faith that his flesh is indeed dead...

The flesh is by no means dead. If it were then we would all have holy flesh - a glorified humanity free from indwelling sin, i.e., the sin nature.

"There can be no self-exaltation, no boastful claim to freedom from sin, on the part of those who walk in the shadow of Calvary’s cross. They feel that it was their sin which caused the agony that broke the heart of the Son of God, and this thought will lead them to self-abasement. Those who live nearest to Jesus discern most clearly the frailty and sinfulness of humanity, and their only hope is in the merit of a crucified and risen Saviour." (The Great Controversy, p 471)

"It is evident that where a claim to sinlessness is made, there the law of God has not been written in the heart; for the commandments of God are exceeding broad, and are discerners of the thoughts and intents of the heart. The apostle speaks words of encouragement to those who realize that they are sinners, and says, “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all righteousness.” “If we say we have no sin,” when our thoughts, words, and actions, reflected from the law of God, the great moral mirror, reveal us as transgressors, we make God a liar, and prove that his word is not in us." (ref?)

"When human beings receive holy flesh, they will not remain on the earth, but will be taken to heaven. While sin is forgiven in this life, its results are not now wholly removed. It is at His coming that Christ is to "change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body"(Phil. 3:21)" (2SM, p 33)

I do not think those quotes really apply to the points being discussed here, which is why I prefer Bible only Sonny.

Consider these Bible verses:

Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

Rom 8:10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Col 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

2Ti 2:11 [it is] a faithful saying: For if we be dead with [him], we shall also live with [him]:

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts

Gal 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

[Dr. Rich]

Thanks for reminding us about this John. So I can assume you agree to let the one who is confused still remain confused and "Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and let the one who is filthy, still be filthy, and let the one who is rightous, still PRACTICE righteousness; and let the one who is holy, still KEEP HIMSELF holy." (Rev. 22:11)

"Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to WHAT HE HAS DONE. (Rev. 22:12)

If Jesus had the last word on this, don't you believe He would have told us about "righteousness by faith"?

And thanks Twilight for proving Wayfinder's point.

[Musicman1228]

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

if Jesus DID become sin for us then how could He not be the PERFECT Passover Lamb?

Christ was that perfect passover lamb because His performance was perfect. He lived a perfect life in our sinful flesh. Sunday morning Christ as the Son of Man was raised with holy flesh.

His living a perfect life in 'our' flesh has nothing to do with His performance if what Paul says is true-that works don't matter because of grace. You are saying that grace did not apply to Jesus Christ but grace applies to us so we don't have to do the things of Christ in our own lives, we are all saved no matter what we do. Hmm.

Also, I believe that Jesus had holy flesh before His death (on a Wednesday) and resurrection (on Sabbath), because His flesh contained NO sin. He contained no spot or blemish of any kind because to have done so would have made Him unworthy to purchase a Kingdom for God. As it was He was able to resurrect Himself (I lay myself down and take my life up again) because the grave cannot hold anyone that has been killed as a perfect sacrifice (for others) being without sin in body, mind and spirit.

[John317]

Thanks for reminding us about this John. So I can assume you agree to let the one who is confused still remain confused

Speaking as moderator:

The issue is the same as what we talked about before: there's a correct time and place to discuss at length the questions about Paul and the canon of the NT, and this is not the topic here.

You 3 gentlemen remind me a bit of the young people I used to work with: I would tell them the rules and they would agree to them, but then they would keep testing the waters to see if the rules still applied. I would have to keep reminding them of the fact that they had already signed an agreement that they would abide by the rules.