Christ's human nature...

[John317]

...But by taking our humanity upon His Divinity, Christ was tempted by sin. That's because the humanity that Christ was made contained sin. Paul calls this "sin in the flesh".

Exactly. God was not tempted but Jesus was both God AND man, and the man was certainly tempted by sin. If He wasn't, then the test was bogus and Satan would have a right to call "foul."

[wayfinder]

John 17:17 "Sanctify them in the truth ; Your word is truth.

18 "As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. 19 "For their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth. 20 "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word ; 21 that they may all be one ; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.

In this high priestly prayer, the Son of God asks His Father to sanctify His disciples and those who would believe through their words. This sanctification process is the removal of sin from the sinner. The sanctification process is a process of discovery of sin, which, according to the context of the prayer, is lies. If no lie is found then the person is deemed righteous. If a lie is found the individual may confess this and it will be removed (work of the High Priest). Jesus said "for their sakes I sanctify Myself, it was this process that verified that He had no lie in His mouth, He was blamess and when He was in heaven he appeared in the center of the throne as a Lamb as if it had been slain. This Lamb was found worthy to take the book with seven seals on it, He was the only one found worthy to take the book from the right hand of the Father and open it's seals. If He had any sin in His flesh He would not have had the right to take the book.

John 10:30 NAS

"I and the Father are one."

Here is another statement that proves that the Son of God and no sin in Him (flesh or spirit), because He and His Father are One and the Father certainly does not have any sin in Him.

John 6:52 Then the Jews began to argue with one another, saying, "How can this man give us His flesh to eat ?"

53 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves. 54 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55 "For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink.

56 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 "As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also will live because of Me.

58 "This is the bread which came down out of heaven ; not as the fathers ate and died ; he who eats this bread will live forever."

If the Son of God had sin in His flesh, could He make this statement. Here He equates His flesh and blood as true food and true drink and by eating His flesh and drinking His blood (He is speaking of His words, that they are breath and life) we have no life in us. If His flesh had sin, by symbolically eating it we would take in that sin and sin in anyone does not give eternal life.

Like I said, I believe only what the Son of God says and I know His words are true.

[Dr. Rich]

John wrote: "Jesus actually died because of the load of sin and from separation from the Father. He literally died of a broken heart, not from the nails."

I know this has to be your own understanding because you sure can't find any verification for this from the words of Jesus.

Since Jesus paid the penalty for Adam's sin, in no way was Adam's penalty the separation from God and dying of a broken heart.

The truth of the matter is that Jesus was a sacrifice-as Adam's penalty-and only God the Father had the right to kill Him and could kill Him---and this is exactly what happened.

It is impossible for humans to kill God. It is impossible for Satan to kill God. It would have been impossible for Jesus Christ to die a 'natural' death.

It is also impossible for humans to kill Satan and his demons--as they are spiritual beings. It is also impossible for Satan and his demons to die a natural death. Only the God the Creator has the right and can kill Satan and the demons.

[John317]

John wrote: "Jesus actually died because of the load of sin and from separation from the Father. He literally died of a broken heart, not from the nails."

I know this has to be your own understanding because you sure can't find any verification for this from the words of Jesus.

Jesus said, "My God, My God, why have you abandoned me?"

He died far sooner than people died after being crucified. They usually wouldn't die the first day. Pilate was astonished that Jesus was dead already. The other men crucified with Christ were still alive until the soldiers broke their legs.

Both Jesus' own words just before he died and the fact that he died far more quickly than men typically died from crucifixion is proof that Jesus didn't die from being crucified but from his separation from the Father which occurred because of sin. Christ bore our sins and these separated Him from God. He did this on our behalf.

[John317]

Since Jesus paid the penalty for Adam's sin, in no way was Adam's penalty the separation from God and dying of a broken heart.

When did Christ pay the penalty for Adam's sin? It was on the cross. The penalty was death-- and death comes about from separation from God, the life-giver. Christ was very much aware of this separation. This is what broke Jesus' heart. It was the direct consequence of sin. Sin separates from God.

[John317]

...It is impossible for humans to kill God. It is impossible for Satan to kill God. It would have been impossible for Jesus Christ to die a 'natural' death.

It is also impossible for humans to kill Satan and his demons--as they are spiritual beings. It is also impossible for Satan and his demons to die a natural death. Only the God the Creator has the right and can kill Satan and the demons.

I never said that humans can kill Satan and demons or that they can kill God. Of course they cannot. Deity did not die. That would be an impossibility.

But Jesus was not only God-- He was also a human descendant of Adam, and all of Adam's posterity die the first death unless God translates them before seeing death.

[Sonny]

If the Son of God had sin in His flesh, could He make this statement.

The Son of God refers to Christ's Divinity, while the Son of Man refers to Christ's humanity.

Romans 1:1 Paul, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated to the gospel of God 2 which He promised before through His prophets in the Holy Scriptures, 3 concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh, 4 and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead.

[Musicman1228]

Originally Posted By: wayfinder

If the Son of God had sin in His flesh, could He make this statement.

The Son of God refers to Christ's Divinity, while the Son of Man refers to Christ's humanity.

Romans 1:1 Paul, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated to the gospel of God 2 which He promised before through His prophets in the Holy Scriptures, 3 concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh, 4 and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead.

It seems pretty clear to me that if Jesus was born of the flesh in the natural way of conception then ALL is lost for mankind, and that the execution of Jesus Christ by His Father was for naught because Jesus could not have been the perfect Passover Lamb.

[Sonny]

It seems pretty clear to me that if Jesus was born of the flesh in the natural way of conception then ALL is lost for mankind

[Dr. Rich]

The plan of redemption or restoration was before Adam and Eve. Jesus, as Michael, (THE LORD GOD=I AM) was NOT the seed of David--this in itself is fiction and an impossibility as Jesus said by declaring that He was before Abraham. He did NOT have a split nature or personality. Yes, He did come as a human in physical presence, but was God 100% and therefore only His Father could kill Him. Also, Paul has Jesus being declared the Son of God ONLY upon His resurection.

Adam was to be executed for his sin. Well, this same penalty is what the Son of God agreed to and was carried out by God the Father. John, all of your ideas and opinions can only be verified by hearsay evidence. There are a TON of ideas and opinions out there that are fiction because of their foundations. Just another reason to use the words of Jesus as the only correct foundation.

[John317]

....the execution of Jesus Christ by His Father was for naught because Jesus could not have been the perfect Passover Lamb.

Do you really believe God executed Jesus? Is that what you see when you read the Gospels? Show how you get that out of the narratives describing His death. Jesus did not say, "My God, why are you executing me," did He?

In the Garden or anywhere else, did Jesus say that God was going to kill or execute Him? How would executing Christ have proved anything about sin?

[John317]

The plan of redemption or restoration was before Adam and Eve. Jesus, as Michael, (THE LORD GOD=I AM) was NOT the seed of David--this in itself is fiction and an impossibility as Jesus said by declaring that He was before Abraham. He did NOT have a split nature or personality.

Matt. 1: 1--Matthew 1:1

The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

Jesus Himself said that He was the offspring of David. Rev. 22: 16.

Rev. 22:16

"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you about these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star."

2 Samuel 7:12-17

When your days are fulfilled and you lie down with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring after you, who shall come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. [13] He shall build a house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. [14] I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son. When he commits iniquity, I will discipline him with the rod of men, with the stripes of the sons of men, [15] but my steadfast love will not depart from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away from before you. [16] And your house and your kingdom shall be made sure forever before me. Your throne shall be established forever.' " [17] In accordance with all these words, and in accordance with all this vision, Nathan spoke to David.

NOTE: The above is referring to the Messiah, who would come from David's body.

Psalm 89:3-4

You have said, "I have made a covenant with my chosen one;

I have sworn to David my servant:

[4] 'I will establish your offspring forever,

and build your throne for all generations.' " Selah

NOTE: The above is a prophecy of God regarding the Messiah, that He would be a descendant of David.

Psalm 132:11

The Lord swore to David a sure oath

from which he will not turn back:

"One of the sons of your body I will set on your throne.

NOTE: The above is a prophecy of God regarding the Messiah, the He would come from David's body.

Isaiah 9:7

Of the increase of his government and of peace

there will be no end,

on the throne of David and over his kingdom,

to establish it and to uphold it

with justice and with righteousness

from this time forth and forevermore.

The zeal of the Lord of hosts will do this.

Isaiah 11:1

There shall come forth a shoot from the stump of Jesse,

and a branch from his roots shall bear fruit.

Rev. 5:5

And one of the elders said to me, "Weep no more; behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has conquered, so that he can open the scroll and its seven seals."

Matthew 9:27

And as Jesus passed on from there, two blind men followed him, crying aloud, "Have mercy on us, Son of David."

Luke 1:32

He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David,

Luke 1:69

and has raised up a horn of salvation for us

in the house of his servant David,

John 7:42

Has not the Scripture said that the Christ comes from the offspring of David, and comes from Bethlehem, the village where David was?"

Acts 13:23

Of this man's offspring God has brought to Israel a Savior, Jesus, as he promised.

Romans 1:3

concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh

CONCLUSION: The Bible is clear that the Messiah would come out of the body of David. If Jesus didn't come out of David's body, He's not the true Messiah. Christ was both God and man. The man Christ Jesus was a descendant of David, and this could only happen if Christ was the son of Mary and received her DNA. Otherwise the prophecy was a lie, and as you've pointed out correctly many times before, God does not-- indeed, cannot--- lie.

[Dr. Rich]

Ok John, I can see your side of the issue and it is one that I too had accepted for most of my life. I have argued the same scripture you just gave and on the surface would appear to be true. This was before the understanding of DNA and how it works. But I disagree with Jesus being declared the Son of God after He was resurected.

[John317]

Ok John, I can see your side of the issue and it is one that I too had accepted for most of my life. I have argued the same scripture you just gave and on the surface would appear to be true.

Yes, those verses certainly do appear to be telling us that Jesus was what it says He would be: a descendant of David and from out of David's body. That is what they consistently say, anyway.

But please show how you have been led to the conclusion that all those verses are telling us the opposite of what they clearly do say.

[wayfinder]

Matthew 27:45 NAS

Now from the sixth hour darkness fell upon all the land until the ninth hour.

46 About the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "ELI, ELI, LAMA SABACHTHANI ?" that is, "MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?"

50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.

It is possible that the reason for the darkness from the sixth to the ninth hour, was that God the Father came down to earth to be with His Son while He hung on the cross. The darkness was to prevent anyone from being killed by the brightness of His glory. When the darkness ended at the ninth hour is when the Son said why are you leaving and His life was taken as His Father left for home.

[wayfinder]

It would appear you are proving my point about Paul. I would be interested if you can find anywhere, other than the writings of Paul, a statement that is congruent with Romans 1:1-3

[Musicman1228]

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

....the execution of Jesus Christ by His Father was for naught because Jesus could not have been the perfect Passover Lamb.

Do you really believe God executed Jesus? Is that what you see when you read the Gospels? Show how you get that out of the narratives describing His death. Jesus did not say, "My God, why are you executing me," did He?

In the Garden or anywhere else, did Jesus say that God was going to kill or execute Him? How would executing Christ have proved anything about sin?

The story of Abraham and Isaac is God showing us through Abraham what He (God) was one day going to do to His own son. Rather than kill his own son God provided Abraham with a substitute sacrifice in the form of a male sheep one year old (a ram), who Abraham killed in place of Isaac.

The metaphor is that Abraham represents God the Father, Isaac represents God's son, Jesus. Just as did Isaac, Jesus made Himself available to be sacrificed-He didn't run and hide, He faced His death as would a King.

The only difference between Abraham and Isaac and God the Father and Jesus is that there was no one that could take the place of Jesus as the ram did for Isaac, because Jesus was the Lamb that was slain to purchase a Kingdom for God.

This story shows that God would kill His own Son as a substitute for the children of Abraham, AKA those that are in the Kingdom of Heaven.

[John317]

... I have argued the same scripture you just gave and on the surface would appear to be true. This was before the understanding of DNA and how it works.

Show how your understanding of DNA proves that the Bible's teaching about Jesus' being a descendant of David cannot be true.

Walk us through the following verses and show what these verses are actually telling us;

Quote:

Matt. 1: 1--Matthew 1:1

The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

Rev. 22:16

"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you about these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star."

2 Samuel 7:12-17

When your days are fulfilled and you lie down with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring after you, who shall come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. [13] He shall build a house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. [14] I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son. When he commits iniquity, I will discipline him with the rod of men, with the stripes of the sons of men, [15] but my steadfast love will not depart from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away from before you. [16] And your house and your kingdom shall be made sure forever before me. Your throne shall be established forever.' " [17] In accordance with all these words, and in accordance with all this vision, Nathan spoke to David.

NOTE: The above is referring to the Messiah, who would come from David's body.

Psalm 89:3-4

You have said, "I have made a covenant with my chosen one;

I have sworn to David my servant:

[4] 'I will establish your offspring forever,

and build your throne for all generations.' " Selah

NOTE: The above is a prophecy of God regarding the Messiah, that He would be a descendant of David.

Psalm 132:11

The Lord swore to David a sure oath

from which he will not turn back:

"One of the sons of your body I will set on your throne.

NOTE: The above is a prophecy of God regarding the Messiah, the He would come from David's body.

Isaiah 9:7

Of the increase of his government and of peace

there will be no end,

on the throne of David and over his kingdom,

to establish it and to uphold it

with justice and with righteousness

from this time forth and forevermore.

The zeal of the Lord of hosts will do this.

Isaiah 11:1

There shall come forth a shoot from the stump of Jesse,

and a branch from his roots shall bear fruit.

Rev. 5:5

And one of the elders said to me, "Weep no more; behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has conquered, so that he can open the scroll and its seven seals."

Matthew 9:27

And as Jesus passed on from there, two blind men followed him, crying aloud, "Have mercy on us, Son of David."

Luke 1:32

He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David,

Luke 1:69

and has raised up a horn of salvation for us

in the house of his servant David,

John 7:42

Has not the Scripture said that the Christ comes from the offspring of David, and comes from Bethlehem, the village where David was?"

Acts 13:23

Of this man's offspring God has brought to Israel a Savior, Jesus, as he promised.

Romans 1:3

concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh

[John317]

It would appear you are proving my point about Paul. I would be interested if you can find anywhere, other than the writings of Paul, a statement that is congruent with Romans 1:1-3

See all the Bible quotes in the post just previous to this one.

[John317]

Do you really believe God executed Jesus? Is that what you see when you read the Gospels? Show how you get that out of the narratives describing His death. Jesus did not say, "My God, why are you executing me," did He?

In the Garden or anywhere else, did Jesus say that God was going to kill or execute Him? How would executing Christ have proved anything about sin?

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

The story of Abraham and Isaac is God showing us through Abraham what He (God) was one day going to do to His own son.....This story shows that God would kill His own Son as a substitute for the children of Abraham, AKA those that are in the Kingdom of Heaven.

Is this-- the story of Abraham-- your strongest Bible evidence for the Father executing Jesus on the cross?

If this story was going to be an example of what God would do to His own beloved Son, then why didn't God have Abraham go through with the killing? Why did God stop him before he killed his son? By preventing Abraham from killing his son, God gave evidence that Jesus wouldn't die at the hand of His Father. In fact, it would appear that it was a parable of what would occur: that Jesus would die as our substitute just as the ram died as a substitute for Isaac. I don't see how the story illustrates how God would kill Christ when Abraham was prevented from taking the life of his son.

But again, what does God killing His Son teach us about sin? What does it tell us about sin? Does it tell us that God executes His innocent Son so the guilty can go free? How is that justice?

[John317]

... But I disagree with Jesus being declared the Son of God after He was resurected.

What does Paul mean by that statement? Do you think Paul is saying Jesus was not the Son of God until the resurrection?

[Musicman1228]

Originally Posted By: John317

Do you really believe God executed Jesus? Is that what you see when you read the Gospels? Show how you get that out of the narratives describing His death. Jesus did not say, "My God, why are you executing me," did He?

In the Garden or anywhere else, did Jesus say that God was going to kill or execute Him? How would executing Christ have proved anything about sin?

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

The story of Abraham and Isaac is God showing us through Abraham what He (God) was one day going to do to His own son.....This story shows that God would kill His own Son as a substitute for the children of Abraham, AKA those that are in the Kingdom of Heaven.

Is this-- the story of Abraham-- your strongest Bible evidence for the Father executing Jesus on the cross?

If this story was going to be an example of what God would do to His own beloved Son, then why didn't God have Abraham go through with the killing? Why did God stop him before he killed his son? By preventing Abraham from killing his son, God gave evidence that Jesus wouldn't die at the hand of His Father. In fact, it would appear that it was a parable of what would occur: that Jesus would die as our substitute just as the ram died as a substitute for Isaac. I don't see how the story illustrates how God would kill Christ when Abraham was prevented from taking the life of his son.

But again, what does God killing His Son teach us about sin? What does it tell us about sin? Does it tell us that God executes His innocent Son so the guilty can go free? How is that justice?

Please tell my why God would go to the trouble of providing a ram, a substitute sacrifice for Isaac, AND include it in the record, if it were not to teach us a lesson about how God works? And what would that lesson be? God was showing us that He would send His own Son to die for us.

[Musicman1228]

Who was going to kill (execute) Adam and Eve if they ate of the Tree? God said He would kill them on the very day they ate of that particular tree. Jesus placed Himself between God and Adam and Eve, and took their punishment, second death, upon Himself. God said that a blood punishment was required for sinning, and we are playing by His rules. We can pay this punishment ourselves, but this would result in our being executed and being dead forever-there is no return from the second death for a sinner.

If we bond ourselves to Jesus Christ because we cannot pay the debt without undergoing the second death then Jesus becomes responsible for paying our debt for us; that is, dying the second death so we don't have to. This can work because Jesus created the beings that sinned, that is, preceded them; and also followed them and became a human being, because only another human being can pay the debt for a human being. And not just any human being but a completely righteous human being, because only righteous blood is sufficient to pay the penalty for the unrighteous.

Both the spotless Ram that was substituted for Isaac and the spotless Passover Lamb that was killed to purchase the Kingdom of Heaven are representative of Jesus Christ, who was both creator and also took the FORM of the created so He had the right do this, and would be found worthy to pay the penalty for fallen mankind.

[Jeannieb43]

God never said He would kill Adam and Eve if they ate from the tree. He said, "In the day that thou eatest from the tree YOU SHALL DIE." He never said He would cause that death; merely that their death would be a natural consequence of their disobedience.

And it did happen that way; they began to die as soon as they ate from the forbidden tree. God did not kill them. Their actions started the process in motion; it was the natural consequence of their choice.

BTW, I believe God placed that Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil there in the Garden TO PROTECT THEM. Because he restricted Satan to that one spot; Satan could not roam freely throughout the Garden, so Adam and Eve were thus PROTECTED from Satan as long as they stayed away from that forbidden tree.

Having Satan restricted to that one place in the Garden was as a protection to Adam and Eve, not a penalty.

[phkrause]

God never said He would kill Adam and Eve if they ate from the tree. He said, "In the day that thou eatest from the tree YOU SHALL DIE." He never said He would cause that death; merely that their death would be a natural consequence of their disobedience.

And it did happen that way; they began to die as soon as they ate from the forbidden tree. God did not kill them. Their actions started the process in motion; it was the natural consequence of their choice.

BTW, I believe God placed that Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil there in the Garden TO PROTECT THEM. Because he restricted Satan to that one spot; Satan could not roam freely throughout the Garden, so Adam and Eve were thus PROTECTED from Satan as long as they stayed away from that forbidden tree.

Having Satan restricted to that one place in the Garden was as a protection to Adam and Eve, not a penalty.

Excellent post Jeannieb43.