Christ's human nature...

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

Just as He was born again, conceived by the Holy Spirit in Mary's womb, joining the Divine seed with the human DNA, so must we be born again. It will only be a reality for us at the second coming when we all will be changed in a moment in the twinkling of an eye.

So what is the kingdom of God that Jesus said was "at hand" 2,000 years ago?

The indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the heart.

The "kingdom of God" is that very experience.

[Twilight]

My Bible tells me that there will be a people who will walk holy in the sight of God, without a mediator. BEFORE Jesus comes.

Indeed.

As we enter, by faith, into the simple fact that we are indeed dead to sin and alive unto God, our faith will deepen.

Until we FINALLY believe Gods simple truth:

"Ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God."

Then we will be sealed, closed off, walled in, with the Holy Spirit.

A time will come when Gods people start to really understand these truths, when they do, the "kingdom of God", will bring the downfall of Babylon.

Steps:

1. Accept Jesus' person prophetically and historically.

2. Accept the Inspiration of Scripture.

3. Accept the merits of Christ.

4. Accept the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

5. Accept that we are dead to sin and alive to God.

6. Accept that we will grow in this knowledge (faith to faith).

7. Warn the world.

[Sonny]

Jesus was born with the "flesh", but as He was born again, that flesh was "dead".

Then Jesus didn't take sinful human nature. A dead human nature is the same as not having one. If Jesus took our nature, as we know it, then Christ's human nature only died when Christ died and not before. Here's some evidence:

For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh. (Romans 8:3 NKJV)

Here's my understanding of the above. God's law is no match for the sinful nature. Paul brings this out in Galatians 3:21 - "For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law."

Then how did Christ defeat the desires of human nature? Christ, through "the law of the Spirit" defeated the sin nature. Christ had to contend with this nature from the cradle to the grave. Only when His humanity died did inward sin die. Then on the resurrection morning the Son of Man was raised without sin. He was raised with a glorified humanity free from inward sin (sin in the flesh).

So my understanding is this - At the incarnation Christ, who is God, was mysteriously blended with our humanity in the womb of Mary. I can back this up with Ellen White:

In Christ were united the divine and the human--the Creator and the creature. The nature of God, whose law had been transgressed, and the nature of Adam, the transgressor, meet in Jesus--the Son of God, and the Son of man. (Lift Him Up - Page 346)

Was the human nature of the Son of Mary changed into the divine nature of the Son of God? No; the two natures were mysteriously blended in one person--the man Christ Jesus. In Him dwelt all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. When Christ was crucified, it was His human nature that died. Deity did not sink and die; that would have been impossible. Christ, the sinless One, will save every son and daughter of Adam who accepts the salvation proffered them, consenting to become the children of God. The Saviour has purchased the fallen race with His own blood. (Lift Him Up - Page 76)

Christ has always been God (Deity). There was never a time that He wasn't God. We also know that God is Spirit. Before the incarnation Jesus was Spirit (whatever that means) and nothing else, but at the incarnation Christ's Deity was combined with our humanity that was under the curse of the law.

The moment Christ became a man and identified himself with our humanity that moment he came under the curse of the law. How so? Because Christ as a man received a life that stood condemned and a life that had sinned. This is not to say Christ took a sinning nature. The moment Christ was made a man that moment the Holy Spirit took control of His mind. So from the cradle to the grave Christ never yield to the sin nature.

When the Bible states that "He was made sin" we probably need to take that at face value. The Bible doesn't say that He was made a sinner (as in someone who is sinning in thought and deed), but that He was made sin because of inward sin.

After defeating the desires of this sinful human nature for over thirty years Jesus took that nature to the grave. It died when Christ died. Sunday morning Christ's humanity was raised without inward sin. He was raised glorified. Only then did He return to heaven.

That's my understanding.

[Sonny]

Then Jesus didn't take sinful human nature. A dead human nature is the same as not having one. If Jesus took our nature, as we know it, then Christ's human nature only died when Christ died and not before. Here's some evidence:

For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh. (Romans 8:3 NKJV)

Here's another one:

Romans 6:6 For we know that our old self (our Adamic life) was crucified with him so that the body of sin (our humanity with inward sin) might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin-- 7 because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.

This is actually a better verse then Romans 8:3. It's very clear. Paul states that our Adamic life "was crucified with (Christ)". The reason? So that "the body of sin" (our humanity with inward sin) might be "done away with". Paul then gives his reason:

So that we will be set free from inward sin - because anyone who has died (as Christ did) has been freed from sin!

While we do experience victory over sin, we can't say we are dead to our sinful natures. For one reason our nature aren't dead. If our natures were dead we wouldn't sin, not even by a thought.

So the idea here is Christ took care of the problem of humanity at its very core - the sin nature. He did away with it on the cross.

[Dr. Shane]

Originally Posted By: Shane

So what is the kingdom of God that Jesus said was "at hand" 2,000 years ago?

The indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the heart.

The "kingdom of God" is that very experience.

Does the "indwelling of the Holy Spirit" empower us to obey God's law? Or do we have to wait until the second coming?

[Dr. Shane]

G: Maybe you need a pair of glasses to see more clearly. Had it been translated "brought forth INTO a sinful world" or "brought forth INTO iniquity", you might have a toe to stand on, but that is NOT what it says to get the idea that the verse is talking about environment!

I have a pair of reading glasses. I also have a Strong's Concordance. The passage allows for the interpretation that I have outlined. That is why it is no good for trying to "prove" anything regarding original sin. The text isn't about original sin. It is about repentance. Those that apply it to original sin are really grasping at straws. David is not making excuses for sinning. He is in the act of repentance. He is taking responsibility for his sin and asking for forgiveness. If David is saying he was born guilty of someone else's sin, then he would be putting the blame on someone else like Adam blamed Eve and Eve blamed the serpent. That is not what is going on. Put on those reading glasses and read the whole passage.

Psalms 51:

1. Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.

2. Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.

3. For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.

4. Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou Judgest.

5. Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

6. Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.

7. Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.

8. Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.

9. Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.

10. Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

11. Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

12. Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.

13. Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.

14. Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.

15. O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise.

16. For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.

17. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

18. Do good in thy good pleasure unto Zion: build thou the walls of Jerusalem.

19. Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar.

The entire passage is a focus on David. There is no blaming other people. Yes, he was born in sin just like I was born in summer. Sin is the environmental condition he was born in. Sin was the environmental condition he was conceived it. However he states that God can make him clean, God can make him whiter than snow. Verse five is not an attempt to blame his sin on inherited guilt. Taken in context, it was the environmental condition of his birth and conception that was sinful. At most, what we get out of that verse is that he was born with a sinful nature - not inherited guilt.

[phkrause]

I think you've made a very good point Shane.

[Sonny]

---what we get out of that verse is that he was born with a sinful nature - not inherited guilt.

David was born just as any other sinner. He was born with his mind dominated by his human nature. The human fabric passed onto David from Adam is a humanity enslaved to sin and condemned by the law. The law of God doesn't only condemn outward sins, but sinful thoughts. God also condemns the sin nature.

Selfishness is the essence of all sin; as anyone knows infants are very self-centered. Of course as adults we laugh it off because they are harmless, but nonetheless infants are born with their natures and minds in complete agreement. They are (the nature and the mind), as I have stated, in perfect harmony. What the nature desires the mind desires.

When David was born he wasn't guilty of Adam's specific sin (that's original sin), but he was guilty of sharing Adam's fallen life - a humanity that was a slave of inward sin and a humanity that was perverted by sin.

Here's some evidence: Through sin (inward sin) the whole human organism is deranged, the mind is perverted, the imagination corrupted. Sin has degraded the faculties of the soul. Temptations from without find an answering chord within the heart, and the feet turn imperceptibly toward evil. [MAR 91]

Do you understand what that last sentence means? It means that without God (and we are born separated from God) outward temptations find harmony within the mind/nature and we naturally turn towards evil.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Jesus was born with the "flesh", but as He was born again, that flesh was "dead".

Then Jesus didn't take sinful human nature. A dead human nature is the same as not having one. If Jesus took our nature, as we know it, then Christ's human nature only died when Christ died and not before. Here's some evidence:

For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh. (Romans 8:3 NKJV)

Here's my understanding of the above. God's law is no match for the sinful nature. Paul brings this out in Galatians 3:21 - "For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law."

Then how did Christ defeat the desires of human nature? Christ, through "the law of the Spirit" defeated the sin nature. Christ had to contend with this nature from the cradle to the grave. Only when His humanity died did inward sin die. Then on the resurrection morning the Son of Man was raised without sin. He was raised with a glorified humanity free from inward sin (sin in the flesh).

So my understanding is this - At the incarnation Christ, who is God, was mysteriously blended with our humanity in the womb of Mary. I can back this up with Ellen White:

In Christ were united the divine and the human--the Creator and the creature. The nature of God, whose law had been transgressed, and the nature of Adam, the transgressor, meet in Jesus--the Son of God, and the Son of man. (Lift Him Up - Page 346)

Was the human nature of the Son of Mary changed into the divine nature of the Son of God? No; the two natures were mysteriously blended in one person--the man Christ Jesus. In Him dwelt all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. When Christ was crucified, it was His human nature that died. Deity did not sink and die; that would have been impossible. Christ, the sinless One, will save every son and daughter of Adam who accepts the salvation proffered them, consenting to become the children of God. The Saviour has purchased the fallen race with His own blood. (Lift Him Up - Page 76)

Christ has always been God (Deity). There was never a time that He wasn't God. We also know that God is Spirit. Before the incarnation Jesus was Spirit (whatever that means) and nothing else, but at the incarnation Christ's Deity was combined with our humanity that was under the curse of the law.

The moment Christ became a man and identified himself with our humanity that moment he came under the curse of the law. How so? Because Christ as a man received a life that stood condemned and a life that had sinned. This is not to say Christ took a sinning nature. The moment Christ was made a man that moment the Holy Spirit took control of His mind. So from the cradle to the grave Christ never yield to the sin nature.

When the Bible states that "He was made sin" we probably need to take that at face value. The Bible doesn't say that He was made a sinner (as in someone who is sinning in thought and deed), but that He was made sin because of inward sin.

After defeating the desires of this sinful human nature for over thirty years Jesus took that nature to the grave. It died when Christ died. Sunday morning Christ's humanity was raised without inward sin. He was raised glorified. Only then did He return to heaven.

That's my understanding.

But can you show this from the Bible Sonny? :-)

[Twilight]

While we do experience victory over sin, we can't say we are dead to our sinful natures. For one reason our nature aren't dead. If our natures were dead we wouldn't sin, not even by a thought.

Have you considered this text Sonny?

Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

[Sonny]

Maybe by looking at the Holy Flesh doctrine by in the 1800s, we can get a better understanding of the issues here. Here's some quotes from the pen of Ellen White:

The teaching given in regard to what is termed "holy flesh" is an error. All may now obtain holy hearts (minds), but it is not correct to claim in this life to have holy flesh. The apostle Paul declares, "I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing" (Rom. 7:18). To those who have tried so hard to obtain by faith so-called holy flesh, I would say, You cannot obtain it. Not a soul of you has holy flesh now. No human being on the earth has holy flesh. It is an impossibility. (Ref?)

Now Jesus, after the resurrection, had holy flesh - a humanity not polluted or contaminated by inward sin, but clearly we are still poisoned with inward sin.

When human beings receive holy flesh, they will not remain on the earth, but will be taken to heaven. While sin is forgiven in this life, its results are not now wholly removed. It is at his coming that Christ is to "change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body." Phil. 3:21. When Christ shall come with a great sound of a trumpet, and shall call the dead from their prison house, then the saints will receive holy flesh. Then this mortal shall put on immortality, and this corruptible shall put on incorruption. Then Christ will be admired in all them that believe. He will see of the travail of his soul, and will be satisfied. Then will break forth from immortal beings the song of triumph, "Worthy, worthy is the Lamb." (General Conference Bulletin, 4/23/1901)

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

The indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the heart.

The "kingdom of God" is that very experience.

Does the "indwelling of the Holy Spirit" empower us to obey God's law? Or do we have to wait until the second coming?

Yes.

The indwelling of the Holy Spirit, is the very source of power we need to overcome all sin.

[Sonny]

But can you show this from the Bible Sonny? :-)

I believe so - it's easier to quote Mrs. White here.

[Tom Wetmore]

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

Just as He was born again, conceived by the Holy Spirit in Mary's womb, joining the Divine seed with the human DNA, so must we be born again. It will only be a reality for us at the second coming when we all will be changed in a moment in the twinkling of an eye.

So what is the kingdom of God that Jesus said was "at hand" 2,000 years ago?

Him.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

But can you show this from the Bible Sonny? :-)

I believe so - it's easier to quote Mrs. White here.

Then I would prefer it from the bible Sonny, if you do not mind.

I have seen the SOP twisted to so many different points of view over time that if someone wants to share "truth" with me, they have to do it "sola scriptura".

As Ellen White herself counselled. :-)

My arguments for this are solely from the bible.

I am not arguing I am correct, just showing my point of view.

[Twilight]

Oh yes. :-)

Dead flesh is not "holy flesh"... :-)

It is dead.

[Sonny]

Originally Posted By: Sonny

While we do experience victory over sin, we can't say we are dead to our sinful natures. For one reason our nature aren't dead. If our natures were dead we wouldn't sin, not even by a thought.

Have you considered this text Sonny?

Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

Yes. Notice my life is hid "with Christ in God". I'm pretty sure this refers to my glorified life that I receive from God, through Christ, at the resurrection. The glorified life (humanity) that Christ took to heaven will be my life if I surrender myself to the cross of Christ.

If I were currently dead to sin (I.e., I didn't have a sinful nature) I would never sin.

[Dr. Shane]

Originally Posted By: Shane

So what is the kingdom of God that Jesus said was "at hand" 2,000 years ago?

Him.

So we don't have to wait until the second coming to be delivered from our sins.

"And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for He shall save His people from their sins." (Matthew 1:21)

From their sins, not in their sins.

"There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, Who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." (1 Cor. 10:13)

[wayfinder]

Galatians 2:20 NAS

"I have been crucified with Christ ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

According to Paul, when you are crucified with Christ your dead and Christ's spirit gives life to your dead flesh.

mans 8:11 NAS

But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Have you considered this text Sonny?

Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

Yes. Notice my life is hid "with Christ in God". I'm pretty sure this refers to my glorified life that I receive from God, through Christ, at the resurrection. The glorified life (humanity) that Christ took to heaven will be my life if I surrender myself to the cross of Christ.

If I were currently dead to sin (I.e., I didn't have a sinful nature) I would never sin.

Does it say "ye will be dead".

Or "ye are dead"?

:-)

[Twilight]

Galatians 2:20 NAS

"I have been crucified with Christ ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

According to Paul, when you are crucified with Christ your dead and Christ's spirit gives life to your dead flesh.

mans 8:11 NAS

But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you

But we are only dead as long as we abide in the Crucified Christ.

As we remain their by faith.

But we are also "alive" (new life fromt the new birth), as long as we remain in Christ (abide).

Your thoughts?

[Sonny]

Does it say "ye will be dead".

Or "ye are dead"?

:-)

I am dead to sin in the body of Christ. I have identified (see Romans chapter 6) myself with Christ. I have accepted Christ's death as my death, his resurrection as mine. If that is the case then his glorified life is mine by faith. In that respect my old life died when He died. The phrase is a metaphor that points to a truth. In myself I am not dead to sin or I could claim to be without sin.

Here are several different versions that state this:

Ecclesiastes 7:20 There is no man on earth of such righteousness that he does good and is free from sin all his days.

There is no man on earth of such righteousness that he does good and is free from sin all his days

For there isn't a righteous person on earth who does [only] good and never sins

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Does it say "ye will be dead".

Or "ye are dead"?

:-)

I am dead to sin in the body of Christ. I have identified (see Romans chapter 6) myself with Christ. I have accepted Christ's death as my death, his resurrection as mine. If that is the case then his glorified life is mine by faith. In that respect my old life died when He died. The phrase is a metaphor that points to a truth. In myself I am not dead to sin or I could claim to be without sin.

Here are several different versions that state this:

Ecclesiastes 7:20 There is no man on earth of such righteousness that he does good and is free from sin all his days.

There is no man on earth of such righteousness that he does good and is free from sin all his days

For there isn't a righteous person on earth who does [only] good and never sins

Why do you go from the Carnal state, to the glorified state Sonny?

Aren't you missing a state out:

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Rom 8:10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.

This is the state we are in whilst we wait for the Glorified state, is it not? :-)

Now I always get a little suspicious when we start to brush off scripture as a "metaphor".

There are times when this is true.

But there are also times when we want to take a gospel fact and make it state something else by calling it a metaphor.

If it is to be a metaphor, then that needs to be sustained by Scripture.

Your thoughts?

[wayfinder]

John 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 "Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'

The key issue is, entrance into the kingdom of God. The Son of God does not mention entering into His death as a requirement, but water baptizm and born of the Spirit of God. In Revelation 5:9 The 4 living creatures and 24 elders, in their song, say that with "thy blood thou did purchase", if He purchased men and women to be a kingdom, then what reason would these men and women have to be "crucified with Christ". If we have been purchased with the blood of the Lamb we need do only the will of the One who owns us.

[Twilight]

You see, if you are dead to Sin in Christ, you are also alive to God in Christ.

Now is this just a "remote" experience, that exists in a legal state in heaven?

Or does it also exist in the believer now?

Jhn 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

We Abide in Christ, that is our reality.

But He also Abides in us, that is also our reality.

So we are crucified with Christ and we are alive in Christ.

So when Paul says:

Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

This is a fact appropriated by Faith.

As we accept that fact, God makes it a spiritual reality.

That is my understanding. :-)

Mark