Christ's human nature...

[Sonny]

Consider these Bible verses

Yes, but none of those verses state that you and I no longer have a sinful nature or that we have ceased from all sin.

I think we have strayed from the topic.

[Sonny]

I believe that Jesus had holy flesh before His death (on a Wednesday) and resurrection (on Sabbath), because His flesh contained NO sin.

Then He couldn't be tempted to sin when the Bible clearly states that He was tempted, yet without sin. The Bible also states that Christ condemned sin in sinful flesh. How did He do this - vicariously? Did He pretend to defeat human nature, or did He have to deal with it?

[John317]

In what nature did Christ condemn sin? He condemned sin in the flesh-- the same flesh that human beings have. What flesh do human beings have? Did He condemn sin while living in flesh unlike that of fallen human beings? No. He condemned sin while living in sinful flesh like that which you and I and all other humans have.

Romans 8:1-5

There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. [2] For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. [3] For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, [4] in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. [5] For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit.

"Likeness" does not mean "unlikeness."

Was Jesus a real man? Phil. 2: 7 answers: Jesus "came in the likeness of men." Paul is emphasizing that Christ came as a real human being. Similarly in Romans 8: 3, Paul is emphasizing that Jesus came with the nature that fallen humans have. If Jesus had come with sinless flesh, Paul certainly would not have been inspired to write "sinful flesh."

Hebrews 2:14-18

Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, [15] and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery. [16] For surely it is not angels that he helps, but he helps the offspring of Abraham. [17] Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. [18] For because he himself has suffered when tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.

[Sonny]

If Jesus had the last word on this, don't you believe He would have told us about "righteousness by faith"?

Jesus doesn't have a chapter, but He inspired all of them. As to Paul here are some snippets:

"Paul, called to be an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God"

"Paul, an apostle--sent not from men nor by man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father"

"Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the command of God our Savior and of Christ Jesus"

But of course this doesn't apply to the subject.

[Sonny]

He condemned sin in the flesh

Right, where was sin? "In the flesh" - in our humanity - in the members of our body, which He was "made" as a man. He dealt with that which tempts us to sin. We are tempted to sin because we have a nature that loves sin. The nature Christ took loved sin, but Christ's mind detested sin. Therefore Christ didn't even by a thought sin. For thirty + years He said no to sin and on the cross sin died. He left sin in the grave because Sunday morning He was raised immortal and with holy flesh.

[Sonny]

"Likeness" does not mean "unlikeness."

Here's the Word Biblical Commentary on the word "likeness". I don't have a full reference:

“---the intention (of likeness) is not in any way to call in question or to water down the reality of Christ’s sinful flesh, but to draw attention to the fact that while the Son of God truly assumed sinful flesh, He never became sinful flesh and nothing more, nor even sinful flesh indwelt by the Holy Spirit, which is what believers are, and nothing more. But He always remained Himself.”

I think Jones states the same:

But bear in mind forever that all this He "was made." He was none of this of Himself, of native fault, but all of it he "was made."

The idea here is that Jesus was first God. He will always be God, but He also assumed our sinful flesh for thirty + years in order to redeem us. Even on the other side of the resurrection Jesus as God is clothed in our humanity, glorified.

I think that's the meaning of "likeness".

[John317]

He condemned sin in the flesh

Originally Posted By: Sonny

Right, where was sin? "In the flesh" - in our humanity - in the members of our body, which He was "made" as a man. He dealt with that which tempts us to sin. We are tempted to sin because we have a nature that loves sin. The nature Christ took loved sin, but Christ's mind detested sin. Therefore Christ didn't even by a thought sin. For thirty + years He said no to sin and on the cross sin died. He left sin in the grave because Sunday morning He was raised immortal and with holy flesh.

But Jesus was tempted in every respect just as we are tempted. Being tempted is not sin. For instance, if I am tempted by evil thoughts but I reject those evil thoughts, it is not sin. Jesus did not sin when Satan put evil thoughts in his mind. If God made Jesus in such a way that Jesus had no temptation, then the temptations were not real temptations. But they were indeed real temptations because Jesus knew what it was like to have a desire to disobey God. Yet He resisted and overcame that desire, or temptation, in the same way that you and I may resist and overcome: by the Holy Spirit.

Hebrews 4:15-16

For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin. [16] Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

How are we tempted?

James 1: 14, 15 answers--

But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. [15] Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.

The difference between Jesus and ourselves is that Christ never allowed the desire to conceive, because He always chose to resist the desire by the power of the Holy Spirit. Born-again believers are enabled to do the same.

[Musicman1228]

Originally Posted By: John317

He condemned sin in the flesh

Originally Posted By: Sonny

Right, where was sin? "In the flesh" - in our humanity - in the members of our body, which He was "made" as a man. He dealt with that which tempts us to sin. We are tempted to sin because we have a nature that loves sin. The nature Christ took loved sin, but Christ's mind detested sin. Therefore Christ didn't even by a thought sin. For thirty + years He said no to sin and on the cross sin died. He left sin in the grave because Sunday morning He was raised immortal and with holy flesh.

But Jesus was tempted in every respect just as we are tempted. Being tempted is not sin. For instance, if I am tempted by evil thoughts but I reject those evil thoughts, it is not sin. Jesus did not sin when Satan put evil thoughts in his mind. If God made Jesus in such a way that Jesus had no temptation, then the temptations were not real temptations. But they were indeed real temptations because Jesus knew what it was like to have a desire to disobey God. Yet He resisted and overcame that desire, or temptation, in the same way that you and I may resist and overcome: by the Holy Spirit.

Hebrews 4:15-16

For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin. [16] Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

How are we tempted?

James 1: 14, 15 answers--

But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. [15] Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.

The difference between Jesus and ourselves is that Christ never allowed the desire to conceive, because He always chose to resist the desire by the power of the Holy Spirit. Born-again believers are enabled to do the same.

John, I agreed with you until you said the following: "Jesus did not sin when Satan put evil thoughts in his mind."

Satan DID NOT IN ANY WAY PUT EVIL THOUGHTS INTO THE MIND OF JESUS CHRIST. Satan does not have the power to do this. If he did then Jesus would truly have bowed down to him as he wanted, and we would all be lost forever.

You were correct when you said temptation is not sin. But merely listening to evil does not automatically put them into your thoughts. To do that you must embrace them as your own thoughts, and this Jesus never did because He was God and had no propensity toward sinning.

[John317]

...Satan DID NOT IN ANY WAY PUT EVIL THOUGHTS INTO THE MIND OF JESUS CHRIST. Satan does not have the power to do this. If he did then Jesus would truly have bowed down to him as he wanted, and we would all be lost forever.

You were correct when you said temptation is not sin. But merely listening to evil does not automatically put them into your thoughts. To do that you must embrace them as your own thoughts, and this Jesus never did because He was God and had no propensity toward sinning.

I consider what Satan did in the wilderness in Matt. 4 as putting thoughts into Christ's head. In Matt. 4: 8, for instance, it says that Satan "showed Jesus all the kingdoms of the world and their glory." That certainly sounds like Satan had to power to introduce thoughts into Christ's mind.

Also, at the garden just before his trial, Jesus showed that His will was at odds with the will of the Father. He didn't want to die-- He wanted to avoid doing what God had commanded Him to do. That is what He would have done if He had been able to do His own will. But Christ chose to go against His own will and to follow the will of the Father. We are to do the same thing, and with the Holy Spirit, we may do the same thing.

[John317]

..You were correct when you said temptation is not sin. But merely listening to evil does not automatically put them into your thoughts. To do that you must embrace them as your own thoughts, and this Jesus never did because He was God and had no propensity toward sinning.

I think of "embracing the evil thoughts" as giving in to the temptation, and at that point it is sin.

I agree that Christ never "embraced" the evil thoughts that came into His mind, but evil thoughts did come into His mind. But my point is that evil thoughts themselves is not committing sin if the person immediately rejects them when He realizes that they're evil. In other words, every time Christ was presented with a choice whether to obey God or disobey Him, Christ consistently CHOSE to obey. We don't do a service to God or Christ by claiming that Christ obeyed God because He never really experienced the same kinds of temptations that we have.

[Sonny]

Jesus was tempted in every respect just as we are tempted. Being tempted is not sin.

True, but the mechanism that entices us to sin is called "sin in the flesh". "Sin in the flesh" is at odds with God's love and therefore it (the sin nature) can never be allowed to enter heaven. It's stands condemned. Since "sin" has infected the whole man that which we received from Adam stands under condemnation.

By taking our nature, as a man, Christ came under the curse just as we are under the curse. The difference is that Christ didn't sin.

Again, here's Jones: To be under the law is to be guilty, condemned, and subject to the curse. For it is written: "We know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that...all the world may become guilty before God." This because "all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God." Romans 3:19, 23; 6:14.---"God sent forth His son, made…under the law, to redeem them that were under the law." Galatians 4:4,5. By His coming He brought redemption to every soul who is under the law. But in order perfectly to bring that redemption to men under the law, He Himself must come to men, just where they are and as they are, under the law. (The Consecrated Way to Christian Perfection, chapter 5)

[Sonny]

Since "sin" has infected the whole man that which we received from Adam stands under condemnation.

Let me refer back to a quote by Ellen White:

Through sin the whole human organism is deranged, the mind is perverted, the imagination corrupted. Sin has degraded the faculties of the soul. Temptations from without find an answering chord within the heart, and the feet turn imperceptibly toward evil. [MAR 91]

In the case of Christ taking our humanity upon His Deity, Christ's mind as a man was never "perverted" nor was His "imagination corrupted". His mind was never infected by sin, only the humanity He took upon Himself. Does that make sense?

[John317]

Through sin the whole human organism is deranged, the mind is perverted, the imagination corrupted. Sin has degraded the faculties of the soul. Temptations from without find an answering chord within the heart, and the feet turn imperceptibly toward evil. [MAR 91]

In the case of Christ taking our humanity upon His Deity, Christ's mind as a man was never "perverted" nor was His "imagination corrupted". His mind was never infected by sin, only the humanity He took upon Himself. Does that make sense?

I agree.

[Dr. Rich]

Sonny, I guess I was missunderstood. What I was simply stating that it was my opinion that Jesus was not righteous because of His faith, but because He had a job to do for His Father and He did it. He even said He had finished His job just before He died--not afterword.

This leads me to another interesting question--Did Lucifer take on human nature to become the ruler of this world?

it's also my opinion that Satan's legal arguement was that there must be a little bit of evil in righteousness (good) and a little bit of good in evil---as all Eastern Religions teach. And this goes for human beings too--hence the writer of Romans saying that no one can be righteous.

[Musicman1228]

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

...Satan DID NOT IN ANY WAY PUT EVIL THOUGHTS INTO THE MIND OF JESUS CHRIST. Satan does not have the power to do this. If he did then Jesus would truly have bowed down to him as he wanted, and we would all be lost forever.

You were correct when you said temptation is not sin. But merely listening to evil does not automatically put them into your thoughts. To do that you must embrace them as your own thoughts, and this Jesus never did because He was God and had no propensity toward sinning.

I consider what Satan did in the wilderness in Matt. 4 as putting thoughts into Christ's head. In Matt. 4: 8, for instance, it says that Satan "showed Jesus all the kingdoms of the world and their glory." That certainly sounds like Satan had to power to introduce thoughts into Christ's mind.

Also, at the garden just before his trial, Jesus showed that His will was at odds with the will of the Father. He didn't want to die-- He wanted to avoid doing what God had commanded Him to do. That is what He would have done if He had been able to do His own will. But Christ chose to go against His own will and to follow the will of the Father. We are to do the same thing, and with the Holy Spirit, we may do the same thing.

John,

I must say I am stunned. I never thought in my wildest dreams that you would say that Jesus was ever 'at odds' with the will of His Father. That is an insane statement, which either demonstrates that you have no clue as to who Jesus really is, or that you know but choose to believe He is something sinful. I don't know which is worse.

Jesus ONLY and EVER did the will of His Father. Jesus NEVER had a single thought that would go against His Dad or Mom. The ONLY thing Jesus did in the garden was ASK(not insist) if His Father could possibly find another way of accomplishing their goal of salvation for the Kingdom of which Jesus was King. Jesus knew the answer to His question before He asked it, which means His asking had another goal. And THAT goal was to show US that the will of the Father must be of paramount importance to us, and its accomplishment is worth ANY cost-even the cost of our lives, just as it cost His life. This request was not 'at odds' with what God needed to be accomplished, which was the fact that Jesus came to testify to the truth.

Our testimony to the truth will one day cause many of us to die in the service of the King. Jesus willingly gave Himself up to death in order to testify to the truth and to purchase a Kingdom for God. In asking the question He did of His Father He pointed to His testimony and said to those of us with eyes to see and ears to hear that there is nothing more precious or important than truth, not even our lives.

John, Jesus KNEW that He was going to die for the truth from the moment that He became aware that He was the Son of God, and that in His death He would purchase His Kingdom of Truth from the world. He knew that this was something that He could only avoid if He was willing to give up His Kingdom and authority to Satan-and this was something He was NEVER willing to do.

Satan is the god of lies, Jesus is the God of Truth. When Jesus was 'tested' in the desert there was never any doubt in His mind or in the mind of God that Jesus would not pass this test, because Jesus cannot lie. Jesus as God has no inclination to sin, so Satan's effort to get Jesus to sin was always going to fail, however; Satan did not know this, so in order to make it possible for us to know that Jesus was always going to pass this test God provided a means for us to know this by taking Jesus into the desert and allowing Satan the opportunity to see if He could get Jesus to sin. Jesus did not sin because Jesus as God cannot sin and still be true and honest with Himself. If we have been born of the Holy Spirit (as was Jesus, Rev. 12) then we cannot sin, anymore than Jesus could sin.

[John317]

I guess I was missunderstood. What I was simply stating that it was my opinion that Jesus was not righteous because of His faith, but because He had a job to do for His Father and He did it. ...

This is true. Christ was not righteous by faith but by righteous acts and a perfectly righteous life. However, it was through continual faith in God that gave Him the strength to live that righteous, obedient life. His entire life was one of reliance upon the Father for everything. That's why He prayed so much. His prayers were not a play-act but were absolutely necessary in order for Him to do the Father's will.

[John317]

...at the garden just before his trial, Jesus showed that His will was at odds with the will of the Father. He didn't want to die-- He wanted to avoid doing what God had commanded Him to do. That is what He would have done if He had been able to do His own will. But Christ chose to go against His own will and to follow the will of the Father. We are to do the same thing, and with the Holy Spirit, we may do the same thing.

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

John,

I must say I am stunned. I never thought in my wildest dreams that you would say that Jesus was ever 'at odds' with the will of His Father. That is an insane statement, which either demonstrates that you have no clue as to who Jesus really is, or that you know but choose to believe He is something sinful. I don't know which is worse.

Jesus ONLY and EVER did the will of His Father. Jesus NEVER had a single thought that would go against His Dad or Mom. The ONLY thing ....

Jesus Christ was and is God, the Creator of the entire universe. But let us never forget that Christ was also fully man. He was a real human with real human desires and needs. No human wants to die. Jesus was no exeption.

Jesus Christ never committed a single sin, even by a thought. He was and is completely without sin.

Yes, Jesus ONLY and EVER did the will of His Father.

Jesus of Nazareth only had one "Mom" and that was Mary, not the Holy Spirit. The Bible never refers to the Holy Spirit in this way.

As you can see from the quote above, I am talking about Jesus' humanity being in horror of the idea of dying such a horrible death as that which faced Him on the cross at Golgotha.

He agonized over the prospect of this death, and His will was to live and not die. But despite this desire that He naturally had to live, He chose to obey the Father's will that He die. He could have chosen otherwise and lived, but it would have cost the lives of all humanity.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Consider these Bible verses

Yes, but none of those verses state that you and I no longer have a sinful nature or that we have ceased from all sin.

I think we have strayed from the topic.

I do not agree that we have strayed from topic.

But if you no longer wish to discuss this, that is fine. :-)

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

If Jesus had the last word on this, don't you believe He would have told us about "righteousness by faith"?

Jesus doesn't have a chapter, but He inspired all of them. As to Paul here are some snippets:

"Paul, called to be an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God"

"Paul, an apostle--sent not from men nor by man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father"

"Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the command of God our Savior and of Christ Jesus"

But of course this doesn't apply to the subject.

Word of warning Sonny.

Dr.R, MM and Wayfinder do not accept very much of the New Testament as inspired.

They reject Paul and EGW.

They even think that Peter was "confused" on some points as well.

Just so you know.

[Dr. Rich]

About the temptation--John's gospel does not have Jesus being tempted and IF Jesus had been, it was before He picked His disciples so Matthew and Mark (for Peter) would not have been privy to knowing about the temptation.

Having said this, don't you think that Mary's request to Jesus tempted Him (when she asked Him to turn the water into wine)? Did not He yield to that temptation? I am just asking the question here as I have some problems with this too.

Did Jesus do this on His own? Did Jesus walk on water on His own?

Did Jesus put the ear back on the Roman officer on His own?

[Dr. Rich]

Twilight--please don't paint the picture wrong. We three don't use the words of anyone other than the OT and what the eyewitnesses wrote that were with Jesus for building our foundational belief opinions. We follow the advice of Jesus given to us in Matthew 7:13-29. That is the choice we made--you can make your own choice too. (This reply is only to correct what Twilight wrote)

[Musicman1228]

Jesus Christ was fully human AND fully God. God has no tendency toward sinning, although He could if He chose to; He will never choose to sin, because if He did He would no longer be God. This was the choice that Satan presented to Jesus Christ in the desert (assuming this even happened). Jesus could no more give in to Satan than could God the Father or the Holy Spirit because the three are ONE.

There was absolutely no possibility that Jesus would yield to any temptation, either in the flesh or in the spirit, because Jesus Christ was God in both flesh and spirit. The idea that the flesh has it's own consciousness and will sin in spite of any attempt to thwart that sinning by the spirit is gnostic philosophy and has no place or standing as truth in God's Kingdom.

The body and the spirit combine to make the soul; the soul cannot and does not exist with only one or the other. Who Jesus is (the I AM-His soul) is now firmly and fully linked for eternity to this combination of His physical human body and His own individually identifiable spirit, that is separate from both God the Father and the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit does not animate His 'dead flesh', because His flesh is that of God, and is alive unto itself. This is exactly the same circumstance that we humans operate under. There is no dying to self so that the Spirit of God may animate our dead bodies thus providing a way for our bodies to 'not sin'.

Did Satan have the power to kill Jesus Christ in His human state? Had Jesus not been executed on the cross would He have eventually died from 'natural' causes? Did the weight of our sins oppress Him so much that He died because of it? If the answer to any of these questions is 'yes' then Jesus was never and is not now God, because neither Satan nor natural physical deterioration nor sin has any power over God-and Jesus is God in human form. Before Jesus was born of a human surrogate mother He took the FORM of an archangel (Michael). We are not told what form He took before taking on that form. But whatever form He took prior to identifying with human beings or in His now forever form as human He was, and is, and is to come ALWAYS God.

THAT is the nature of God.

[Sonny]

Jesus Christ was fully human AND fully God. God has no tendency toward sinning--

Right, God has no inclination towards sin. In fact it is impossible for God to be tempted - nor does He tempt. That's almost a direct quote from the Bible.

But by taking our humanity upon His Divinity, Christ was tempted by sin. That's because the humanity that Christ was made contained sin. Paul calls this "sin in the flesh".

[Sonny]

Had Jesus not been executed on the cross would He have eventually died from 'natural' causes?.

Christ died the second death.

[John317]

... Had Jesus not been executed on the cross would He have eventually died from 'natural' causes?

Yes. He would have died because He was a man and as such He was descended from Adam the same as any other human being. All humans die because of Adam's sin. We don't die because of our personal sins. That will only happen after the Great White Throne Judgment.

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

Did the weight of our sins oppress Him so much that He died because of it?

Jesus actually died because of the load of sin and from separation from the Father. He literally died of a broken heart, not from the nails.